Define 'old'
Spoilers Is Picard season 2 a failure?
- Thread starter Ometiklan
- Start date
I'm not forty-two. I'm thirty-twelve.Define 'old'
Anyway, on a more serious note: What I think of the season doesn't match up with what I've been rating the individual episodes. I have to break everything down and weight different things to get a more accurate look at it. I've never felt the need to do this with other seasons, because the average lined up with what I thought. Not this time. It's like the Electoral College not matching the Popular Vote in America. There's a disconnect. At at least for me. I averaged out the season to an 8.4 but, the way I've been looking at it, it doesn't sound like an 8.4. It really doesn't.
I know what other opinions are. But as far as mine, I need to really take a deeper look. I don't mind dissenting opinion, just I think it should be more than "It sucks!", it shouldn't be contradictory, and it should have a line of reasoning I can follow even if I don't agree with it.
I know what other opinions are. But as far as mine, I need to really take a deeper look. I don't mind dissenting opinion, just I think it should be more than "It sucks!", it shouldn't be contradictory, and it should have a line of reasoning I can follow even if I don't agree with it.
We're not old!I'm not forty-two. I'm thirty-twelve.
I buy your view that people who were fans when the last generation of Trek was airing in the majority dislike DSC and PIC (thouhh there are of course some who like it; some indeed quite vocally in this thread).
It'd be interesting to see how it fared with new audiences, though I suspect that's harder to gauge.
For me, I could cheerfully have taken the first two episodes - particularly the season opener, which was an absolute cracker. There were elements to love about the finale but mostly the payoff wasn't really earned and the inconsistency and plot holes too large to ignore for me.
Which feeds into your point about averages - I'd rate two episodes very highly, and the rest from mediocre to bad. I suppose the meat of the season was in the majority I didn't like, so all-in-all I didn't rate the season.
Yes, I would consider Picard season two to be a failure.
For all it’s myriad flaws, season one was an attempt at boldly doing something different. Did every concept work? No. Were there clunky moments? Sure. Did the (rewritten, rushed, and gutted) ending fall flat on its face? You betcha. But there was a reasonably coherent narrative that held true to the premises of the show’s planned arc, and set up the characters & cast for future seasons. At the very least, the show projected faith in its core concept and company of actors.
Season two, on the other hand, scrapped that concept from its opening moments. Most of the ideas that had been developed were not only quickly tossed aside, but deliberately set up to be destroyed. La Sirena was literally depicted as a “wreck in the past”, and then unceremoniously hustled off stage left to become a borg ship. Evan Evagora was confined to a few perfunctory lines and a drink in the finale, before being bounced out of the ensemble. Allison Pill was given some wonderful material, but she too was written off at the end… for no real reason at all. Isa Briones wasn’t allowed to develop her character from season one at all, but rather forced to replicate her character arc in a new persona with poorer writing. She was literally written out via wesley ex machina, for god’s sake.
And why? To set up a more commercially appealing, easier to sell TNG cast reunion. At least Ent: These Are The Voyages had the good taste to allow the cast to perform in their own finale. Picard’s production team dumped their whole cast to bring in a new one. It’s as if in season two of TNG they fired everyone except Frakes & Dorn and hand waved a time travel excuse to bring in the TOS cast to save the show.
Ugh.
For all it’s myriad flaws, season one was an attempt at boldly doing something different. Did every concept work? No. Were there clunky moments? Sure. Did the (rewritten, rushed, and gutted) ending fall flat on its face? You betcha. But there was a reasonably coherent narrative that held true to the premises of the show’s planned arc, and set up the characters & cast for future seasons. At the very least, the show projected faith in its core concept and company of actors.
Season two, on the other hand, scrapped that concept from its opening moments. Most of the ideas that had been developed were not only quickly tossed aside, but deliberately set up to be destroyed. La Sirena was literally depicted as a “wreck in the past”, and then unceremoniously hustled off stage left to become a borg ship. Evan Evagora was confined to a few perfunctory lines and a drink in the finale, before being bounced out of the ensemble. Allison Pill was given some wonderful material, but she too was written off at the end… for no real reason at all. Isa Briones wasn’t allowed to develop her character from season one at all, but rather forced to replicate her character arc in a new persona with poorer writing. She was literally written out via wesley ex machina, for god’s sake.
And why? To set up a more commercially appealing, easier to sell TNG cast reunion. At least Ent: These Are The Voyages had the good taste to allow the cast to perform in their own finale. Picard’s production team dumped their whole cast to bring in a new one. It’s as if in season two of TNG they fired everyone except Frakes & Dorn and hand waved a time travel excuse to bring in the TOS cast to save the show.
Ugh.
All of this basically seems to be, "I didn't like the season because it didn't leave much room for future appearances by the past of season 1."
Which is a complaint that I understand but shouldn't be the sole deciding factor.
What can you tell me about the rewriting of the ending to S1? Source? I’d be interested to know what was changed. I’m actually in a minority who found the s1 finale quite satisfying and moving. At least I did at the time, I haven’t rewatched the show.
Actually, at the end of TNG’s first season Maurice Hurley did want to fire and replace the entire cast! Crikey.
I also have mixed thoughts about the way they’ve basically fired almost the entire PIC cast. I mean, it’ll be nice to see TNG cast again, but a lot of them are paper thin characters (Geordi, Beverly, Troi).
My point was (and I didn’t articulate it very well) that the season itself telegraphed failure in how it was structured. Season one was a reasonably coherent artistic & narrative statement. But the new characters weren’t popular enough with the online community or focus groups, so they filmed a cheap second season around LA with few extras to hand-wave the show’s original premise/cast away & set up a more marketable reset for season 3.
Julia Child would say that one had to have the courage of one’s convictions to flip an omelette. Well, the production team had the courage of those convictions in season 1, lost them in season 2, and then ordered takeout for season 3.
Some will like it. Some will not. Like all Trek. I personally had mixed feelings about some installments, but I found the resolution very satisfying.
Whether it's a "failure", beyond that, is determined whether it contributes to Trek's expansion as a phenomenon, or its extinction. And we have no way of knowing at this point.
Whether it's a "failure", beyond that, is determined whether it contributes to Trek's expansion as a phenomenon, or its extinction. And we have no way of knowing at this point.
We're not old, were vintage.
Season 2 was far from a failure, but wasn't as successful as it could have been. Next!
Season 2 was far from a failure, but wasn't as successful as it could have been. Next!
I'm going to break this down, more for myself than anything else.
S (10/10) = They did an outstanding job with this aspect.
A (9/10) = They did a good job with this aspect.
B (8/10) = They could've done more with this aspect.
C (7/10) = They should've done more with this aspect.
D (6/10) = They dropped the ball with this aspect.
F (5/10) = They shouldn't have had this aspect.
Picard/Laris --> C
Picard's Dark Past --> C
Ten Forward --> B
Raffi taking Elnor under her wing --> C
Captain Rios of the Stargazer --> C
The Stargazer encountering the Jurati Borg Queen --> A
Q's Back --> D
The Confederation Alternate Timeline --> S
Arriving in the 21st Century --> A
Seven/Raffi --> B
Rios/Doctor --> A
21st Century Guinan --> C
The Watchers --> C
Rios Captured by ICE --> C
Dr. Soong and Kore --> C
The Borg Queen vs. Jurati --> A
The La Sirena crew infiltration of the gala --> B
Seven exploring her Humanity --> C
Jurati becoming the Jurati Borg Queen --> C
Kore learning the truth of her origin --> B
The FBI Guy --> D
Q trying to stop Renee Picard --> F
Renee Picard's arc in general --> C
Tallin's character --> C
The Jurati Borg Queen forming an army --> D
La Sirena vs. Dr. Soong --> A
Kore wiping out Dr. Soong's work --> B
La Sirena's crew confronting Q --> C
Q and Picard not kissing --> D
Picard solving the puzzle in 2401 --> A
Picard/Laris Revisited --> C
I think that's it. Anyway, let me tally up those numbers....
... that comes out to a 7.45 or a C. Yeah. A 7.4 sums up what I think of the season better than an 8.4, which was the average I gave for the individual episodes.
So, yes. I think Season 2 was less than the sum of its parts. But it wasn't a failure. There was just potential that was unrealized. Nothing was enough of a problem, though, to detract from my actual enjoyment.
S (10/10) = They did an outstanding job with this aspect.
A (9/10) = They did a good job with this aspect.
B (8/10) = They could've done more with this aspect.
C (7/10) = They should've done more with this aspect.
D (6/10) = They dropped the ball with this aspect.
F (5/10) = They shouldn't have had this aspect.
Picard/Laris --> C
Picard's Dark Past --> C
Ten Forward --> B
Raffi taking Elnor under her wing --> C
Captain Rios of the Stargazer --> C
The Stargazer encountering the Jurati Borg Queen --> A
Q's Back --> D
The Confederation Alternate Timeline --> S
Arriving in the 21st Century --> A
Seven/Raffi --> B
Rios/Doctor --> A
21st Century Guinan --> C
The Watchers --> C
Rios Captured by ICE --> C
Dr. Soong and Kore --> C
The Borg Queen vs. Jurati --> A
The La Sirena crew infiltration of the gala --> B
Seven exploring her Humanity --> C
Jurati becoming the Jurati Borg Queen --> C
Kore learning the truth of her origin --> B
The FBI Guy --> D
Q trying to stop Renee Picard --> F
Renee Picard's arc in general --> C
Tallin's character --> C
The Jurati Borg Queen forming an army --> D
La Sirena vs. Dr. Soong --> A
Kore wiping out Dr. Soong's work --> B
La Sirena's crew confronting Q --> C
Q and Picard not kissing --> D
Picard solving the puzzle in 2401 --> A
Picard/Laris Revisited --> C
I think that's it. Anyway, let me tally up those numbers....
... that comes out to a 7.45 or a C. Yeah. A 7.4 sums up what I think of the season better than an 8.4, which was the average I gave for the individual episodes.
So, yes. I think Season 2 was less than the sum of its parts. But it wasn't a failure. There was just potential that was unrealized. Nothing was enough of a problem, though, to detract from my actual enjoyment.
The Mandalorian, as a Star Trek series, is terrible, but it's not trying to be.
It's a saga, a very old story telling format, with some modern and not so modern trim. By keeping to that format and keeping it simple within those confines, it works. Sagas are repetitive. They don't need a lot of gotcha moments. They're the adventure equivalent of comfort food. Mandolorian is not my favorite show, by a long measure but it can be entertaining, and that is what is is trying to do.
Then we'd have just as many saying that six episodes wasn't enough.
I cringe when viewers call an episode "filler" or "padding", because it seems to me that every scene contributes something to the whole, and I would hate to see them trimmed out.
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I enjoyed most of the episodes but as the stories wrapped up I just started to realize they were stories that didnt need to be told. For me they went nowhere, added nothing and the plot felt like it could have been a single average TOS or TNG episode. Now that its over I just feel very cold and flat.
To the Season One and Two chanting of "Where is Bev? Where is Geordi? Where is Worf? Give us more Riker and Troi" from many fans.
Kobayashi Maru.
Dont forget Where is Wally
Kobayashi Maru indeed. But then again, how we face the no-win scenario is what’s important. Abandoning the artistic premise of the oeuvre, caving to audiences who want the comfort of familiarity, and throwing the cast to the curb seems like not a very good showing in that particular test of character.
The more I consider this, the more I find it disgusting.
Adam Soong only had one child?
A Frankenstein abomination made from microchips and chemicals?
So either Core is Adrik's gammy, and the entire Soong line is an inhuman experiment, or Adam already had "real" kids that were so unspectacular that a daughter who exploded when she came into conflict with a stiff breeze is a charming alternative.
A Frankenstein abomination made from microchips and chemicals?
So either Core is Adrik's gammy, and the entire Soong line is an inhuman experiment, or Adam already had "real" kids that were so unspectacular that a daughter who exploded when she came into conflict with a stiff breeze is a charming alternative.
Or Adam uses the Project Khan data to create Adrik.
If you recall the original announcement, "Picard" was announced as a two-season series and Patrick Stewart supposedly enjoyed Season One so much that he agreed to a third, which may have been when it was suggested to focus on the TNG actors for the final season. So perhaps the contracts for the other principal cast were only for two seasons?
Oh definitely, a 6 episode season would have caused absolute outrage I’m sure. When I say they could have folded it into 5-6 episodes, what I’m saying is that for me, for this to have felt cohesive, with a narrative that felt focused, purely with the material they had. They needed to strip about 4 hours out of it.
I’m not saying every single plot strand should serve the whole, all of the time. You do need a bit of a reprieve now and then, but for me it felt like this season swung too far the other way. There were just too many elements that fizzled out and on reflection only seemed to serve to slow the characters down or distract the viewer with fan service.
It feels like they lacked the ability to self-critique and didn’t ask themselves what storylines needed to be cut to serve the whole, or ask themselves how some of those storylines could have been folded into the main story better.
I’ll keep it vague as there’s no spoiler warning on this thread. If this had been a 5-6 episode series and they needed to put that 4 hrs back in, it could have been used to flesh out the Europa Mission and Renee. They could have given more time to the Q issue. Maybe Q could have been the one to kick off Picards trauma by showing him something right near the start of the season. The detective could have been a thorn in the crews side much earlier on, maybe he could have been tied into ICE. There are ways this show could have seemed more focused and still retain a variety of story elements.
I appreciate a Trek fans passion can come in many different varieties. Personally I don’t mind if a ship or corridor looks different to how it was portrayed X number of years ago. I don’t mind if a fancy bottle is used as a visual metaphor for alien tech. However, I watched this season on Amazon and every week its star rating went down. The reviews are, shall we say, diverse. I’m not going to say this season is a failure, but I do think it’s a season that was in serious need of calibration.
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