This is indeed a major struggle in today's society. I think it might come from the notion that sexual/romantic love is the highest form of love to show someone.
Spoilers Is Picard season 2 a failure?
- Thread starter Ometiklan
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I have no problem with the idea of not only a romantic subtext, but an explicit romantic text to Q and Picard's relationship (at least from the side of Q).
I have a big issue with the execution, because unlike Season 1, I think the out-of-left field emotional beat didn't follow logically from the series up until this point.
How the hell was Picard supposed to draw the "lesson" from Q's antics that he was supposed to let someone in romantically and trust them? Q got Soong to run Picard over with a Tesla! That was out of love?
I do think it's likely (as with most nonsense Hollywood stories) there was a much more compelling story arc that was left on the chopping block for various inscrutable reasons. But ultimately even "a Q did it" isn't a good explanation for the season as a whole. Q could have done a much more simple Tapestry-style scenario and it would have been very straightforward.
I have a big issue with the execution, because unlike Season 1, I think the out-of-left field emotional beat didn't follow logically from the series up until this point.
How the hell was Picard supposed to draw the "lesson" from Q's antics that he was supposed to let someone in romantically and trust them? Q got Soong to run Picard over with a Tesla! That was out of love?
I do think it's likely (as with most nonsense Hollywood stories) there was a much more compelling story arc that was left on the chopping block for various inscrutable reasons. But ultimately even "a Q did it" isn't a good explanation for the season as a whole. Q could have done a much more simple Tapestry-style scenario and it would have been very straightforward.
I am curious how this odd Q and Picard love thing started. It definitely isn’t a thing beyond people projecting their own feelings into a scenario. Q definitely only has plutonic love for Picard and Picard is barely even receptive of that. Picard just pities Q it would seem.
Given how Sir Patrick explicitly stated that he “always thought Q was gay” and that “Q had a way of looking at Picard that was provocative” and that John de Lancie said “I did show up in his bed, didn’t I” when asked about his take on Picard/Q, I don’t think it’s anything “odd”. (And this was during TNG already.) More like “the actors are fully aware of the tension between their characters and are playing into it and, naturally, some people are responding to this”. It’s not something people are making up out of thin air - it’s something even the actors noticed and continued to notice on PIC.
Besides, I think I as a gay dude can see when a guy likes another guy, I don’t need to “project” anything.
I can also see that Jean-Luc and Q aren’t going to be a happily ever after couple, but, speaking strictly as a shipper now, it’s still interesting to imagine what it would take for them to become such. That’s what shipping is all about, and it’s nothing “odd”. Besides, Star Trek fans literally INVENTED the term “slash” with Kirk/Spock.
But I digress. Google can be a very helpful thing regarding the history of all this, I’m not going to launch a lecture because I have a feeling I’d end up having to defend every single little thing because people love to analyze m/m love to death and demand a zillion pieces of proof and justification instead of simply acknowledging that it might be there, something that - straaaangely - never happens with m/f love.
So, tl;dr: PIC was carrying on a long-lasting fandom legacy. Or rather, it tried to carry it but, in good (or rather, bad) old TNG fashion, it failed at taking things fully over the finish line. AGAIN. And that’s what is being pointed out.
Besides, I think I as a gay dude can see when a guy likes another guy, I don’t need to “project” anything.
I can also see that Jean-Luc and Q aren’t going to be a happily ever after couple, but, speaking strictly as a shipper now, it’s still interesting to imagine what it would take for them to become such. That’s what shipping is all about, and it’s nothing “odd”. Besides, Star Trek fans literally INVENTED the term “slash” with Kirk/Spock.
But I digress. Google can be a very helpful thing regarding the history of all this, I’m not going to launch a lecture because I have a feeling I’d end up having to defend every single little thing because people love to analyze m/m love to death and demand a zillion pieces of proof and justification instead of simply acknowledging that it might be there, something that - straaaangely - never happens with m/f love.
So, tl;dr: PIC was carrying on a long-lasting fandom legacy. Or rather, it tried to carry it but, in good (or rather, bad) old TNG fashion, it failed at taking things fully over the finish line. AGAIN. And that’s what is being pointed out.
Yup.
It's clear the actors play into that tension as well. For example, the bed-scene in Tapestry. It's written to be provocative, but then Stewart and DeLancie double down on it in performance (and have a whale of a time vamping it up).
It's not a new thing.
Regardless of how you choose to read the vibe between Picard and Q, it was an abusive relationship.
The one with all the literal power (a needy, egotistical, sociopath) kept showing up over and over again, despite being told explicitly to stay away. They continually fucked with the life of the other, disrupting both their professional and personal business. They caused the deaths and suffering of numerous other people, all supposedly in the name of "love".
The one with all the literal power (a needy, egotistical, sociopath) kept showing up over and over again, despite being told explicitly to stay away. They continually fucked with the life of the other, disrupting both their professional and personal business. They caused the deaths and suffering of numerous other people, all supposedly in the name of "love".
I recall John de Lancie in an interview characterizing Q and Picard's relationship as being that Q loved Picard, but was upset that Picard never returned the affection, hence the constant meddling as a kind of payback.
I’m 100% on board with the problematic aspects of the way in which Q often expresses his love. (However, I must also point out that it’s - sadly - in tune with the way some dudes DO act when you reject them.) He’s omnipotent, from his point of view it’s literally all fun and games but he has a habit of never stopping to truly consider Jean-Luc’s feelings, especially not on TNG. That’s ultimately why Jean-Luc… wouldn’t. Not because Q is a dude but because Q is Q.
PIC also literally has Q slapping Jean-Luc across the face, so hard that his nose bleeds. So yes, there’s tons of problematic stuff to consider. That’s the darker side of things, and I do agree that a lot of P/Q shippers conveniently ignore that side. It’s a whole other debate with tons of problematic layers.
But the fact remains that Q loves Jean-Luc. HOW he loves him tho… that is, as I said, a whole other debate that can go into all kinds of directions, including “Q, dude, no, stop harassing him like this in the name of omnipotent love”.
Not that TNG doesn’t have a whole history of this tho, sadly. The way Lwaxana Troi harasses Jean-Luc? It’s played for laughs but it IS yet another case of “loud and obnoxious person never stops to consider Jean-Luc’s feelings”. But “hurr hurr Picard is uncomfortable hurr hurr”. (I’m really glad they tuned it down in later seasons.) Or the way LaForge harasses Leah Brahms. I’m not even gonna start, it’s a whole can of a zillion worms right there.
Even more reasons for PIC to address things. I agree 100% that PIC season 2 should have featured Jean-Luc and Q working out the past, discussing, etc. They should have been the focus, and Q should have been the one at Jean-Luc’s side throughout the season, not some not!Laris whose presence didn’t even make any sense. More “Tapestry” indeed, please. It could have been SUCH an amazing and interesting journey.
For all the P/Q hype they drummed up in advance (what with literally releasing promo stuff that showed just the two of them, making it look like as if this was going to be The Picard & Q Show) all that ended up happening were scenes where they interacted in like two episodes out of ten. And then they didn’t even let Q directly confess his feelings at the end. “Disappointing” doesn’t even begin to describe it.
PIC also literally has Q slapping Jean-Luc across the face, so hard that his nose bleeds. So yes, there’s tons of problematic stuff to consider. That’s the darker side of things, and I do agree that a lot of P/Q shippers conveniently ignore that side. It’s a whole other debate with tons of problematic layers.
But the fact remains that Q loves Jean-Luc. HOW he loves him tho… that is, as I said, a whole other debate that can go into all kinds of directions, including “Q, dude, no, stop harassing him like this in the name of omnipotent love”.
Not that TNG doesn’t have a whole history of this tho, sadly. The way Lwaxana Troi harasses Jean-Luc? It’s played for laughs but it IS yet another case of “loud and obnoxious person never stops to consider Jean-Luc’s feelings”. But “hurr hurr Picard is uncomfortable hurr hurr”. (I’m really glad they tuned it down in later seasons.) Or the way LaForge harasses Leah Brahms. I’m not even gonna start, it’s a whole can of a zillion worms right there.
Even more reasons for PIC to address things. I agree 100% that PIC season 2 should have featured Jean-Luc and Q working out the past, discussing, etc. They should have been the focus, and Q should have been the one at Jean-Luc’s side throughout the season, not some not!Laris whose presence didn’t even make any sense. More “Tapestry” indeed, please. It could have been SUCH an amazing and interesting journey.
For all the P/Q hype they drummed up in advance (what with literally releasing promo stuff that showed just the two of them, making it look like as if this was going to be The Picard & Q Show) all that ended up happening were scenes where they interacted in like two episodes out of ten. And then they didn’t even let Q directly confess his feelings at the end. “Disappointing” doesn’t even begin to describe it.
In answer to the original post...
I suspec PIC Season 2 will come to be seen in the same way as The Last Jedi was: divisive inasmuch as a lot of fans hate it, and a lot tout it as a much-needed break of the formula.
Suffice it to say it neither has universal acclaim as a "classic" nor does it look to have achieved "beloved cult" status.
Doubtless though, it got the viewers and takings it needed.
So depends how you judge it.
I suspec PIC Season 2 will come to be seen in the same way as The Last Jedi was: divisive inasmuch as a lot of fans hate it, and a lot tout it as a much-needed break of the formula.
Suffice it to say it neither has universal acclaim as a "classic" nor does it look to have achieved "beloved cult" status.
Doubtless though, it got the viewers and takings it needed.
So depends how you judge it.
Season 2 as the Picard and Q show could have been fabulous. Ah well.
A swing and a miss!
Hopefully lessons learned and a different course from Terry Matalas for season 3...
Are there people who say season 2 was great?
I've only seen, "the hate has gone to far "
"It had bright spots"
"It was pretty good"
Under normal circumstances, yes. In this case: The seasons were shot back-to-back and the development of them heavily overlapped. There was going to be a Season 3 no matter what.
I liked Season 2 of Picard enough that I kept watching either as soon as the episodes were available for streaming overnight or the very next morning when I woke up. Whereas I'd wait days for SNW sometimes, weeks for Prodigy sometimes, and I stopped watching Lower Decks. So, by that metric, Season 2 was a success for me as a viewer...
... and yet I don't feel the strong urge to push back against the critiques of it like I do with DSC or the first season of PIC. That's a telling sign right there.
"It was watchable"
"It was goos enough "
They should put these quotes in their commercials
"It was goos enough "
They should put these quotes in their commercials
Ok.
Finally some honesty in advertising.
Also, I would think TNG fans would be happy because Season 2 is leading to the reunion of the TNG crew, mostly.
Guess not...
ETA: here I got one. Season 2 made me care about Picard as a person.
Up until now, I've always seen him as an animatronic figure sputtering platitudes.
At least now I see WHY he behaves the way he does.
I think this is akin to saying, "I love The Motion Picture, because it allowed the studio to wrestle the movies off Roddenberry so the next one would be better."
It would help if you gave specifics.
What specifically made you care about Picard in PIC Season 2, as opposed to PIC Season 1 or TNG?
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