Old ship, old characters.
Spoilers Is Picard season 2 a failure?
- Thread starter Ometiklan
- Start date
New show. Means an update will happen.
They didn't update the Enterprise D when it appeared on Deep Space Nine.
As a one shot? Yeah, they ain't spending the money. For a brand new show and the hero ship? Yes, they will.
Or, alternately, for those people who get wildly sick of applications changing interface all the time because UX folk need to put their stamp on it (whoever got paid for keeping something that worked well?) - maybe there are other plausible reasons why it didn't need to change.
To quote the great Ian Malcolm - "they were so preoccupied with whether they could, they didn't stop to think whether they should."
I don't think the pattern of what has happened is the focus of debate; I think the question at hand is whether the people here believe that it's a good thing. As ever, there varying opinions!
Ummmm, this is just silly... TNG was still on when DS9 started. There was nothing to update.
TNG has received kid glove treatment by these shows, compared to TOS.
The argument made was that artists should be allowed to reinvent designs for new shows and not treat the look of the spaceships as strictly literal. In that case Deep Space Nine could've given us a reimagined Enterprise 1701-D when it showed up, like Discovery gave us a reimagined 1701. It doesn't matter if it looked another way on a different series that was currently running. It had been 6 years since they designed it, they had new designers, they could've given us a new looking ship for the 90s.
But they didn't. Because that would've been a really weird choice! Viewers were supposed to look at it and instantly know what it was... like I instantly recognised all the returning ships in Picard season 2! No one screwed with the Sovereign class or the Akira class and everyone was happy.
Strict literal interpretation ftw.
But they didn't. Because that would've been a really weird choice! Viewers were supposed to look at it and instantly know what it was... like I instantly recognised all the returning ships in Picard season 2! No one screwed with the Sovereign class or the Akira class and everyone was happy.
Strict literal interpretation ftw.
It's not strictly about the series. Whoever told you that is wrong and was doing a horrible job of making their case. It's about production regimes and production eras. One production team in a different era should have the freedom to do things differently from whatever was done in the previous era.
DS9 was a direct spin-off of TNG made by the same people while TNG was still on the fucking air. It's not the same thing and trying to make it sound as if it was is a false equivalence.
TNG, DS9, VOY, and ENT are one group of Star Trek shows: the second TV production generation of Star Trek. DSC, PIC, and SNW are another group of Star Trek shows: the third TV production generation of Star Trek. Each new generation will have their own version of things. That doesn't apply to something made within the same generation by the same production team.
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Even though a majority of them were actually redesigns done up for STO?
TNG didn’t change Excelsior, DS9 didn’t change the TOS Connie, Picard didn’t change the Galaxy class Enterprise. DSC did change the TOS connie suggesting either slight fuckwittery, or a fifty year moratorium. Tbh… apart from the window, I sort of liked it, and still recognised it. The real question is ‘if updating it is ok, why did they update it to ENT stylings’ to which the answer is ‘we had John Eaves anyway, and we wanted to sell new licenses for toys if things took off.’
As to STO stuff? Marrone is excellent, and the ship designs in that are on a par or better than stuff we’ve had on screen these days.
As to STO stuff? Marrone is excellent, and the ship designs in that are on a par or better than stuff we’ve had on screen these days.
Could be this, but the real reason -- the one that no one is saying -- is that TOS was the only live-action Star Trek series that was made before Star Wars and TMP. TMP changed the ballgame for Star Trek's visuals and not just in terms of style, it put things on a whole other visual level. Star Wars changed the ballgame for sci-fi/fantasy in general. TOS was made before those and wasn't up to those visual standards. Even Robert Wise knew it.
There was just a Major Shift in the late-'70s in general. TOS was before it. The rest of the series were after it.
"But TNG, DS9, and ENT didn't update the look of TOS!" No kidding! In TNG, DS9, and ENT it was supposed to be a nostalgic look back to make people pine for the '60s. It didn't feel modern because it wasn't supposed to be. In SNW and the first two seasons of DSC, they were trying to present the TOS Era as if it actually was modern. So SNW and early-DSC had a different goal in mind when presenting the TOS Era than TNG, DS9, and ENT did.
SNW and DSC have been bludgeoned by some people for trying to modernize the TOS Look. That's why I've said before that the 25th Century is the "safest" route to go with. The look is already "modern", the TNG Era has been treated with "kid gloves" like I said, and it keeps the Mafiosos, sorry I mean Canonistas, quiet.
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Anyway, Picard Season 2. I thought it had issues, but I still enjoyed it. I'll re-watch it soon-ish, as I have time.
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Well they weren't returning ships. But yeah I recognised a couple of them too.
The Berman era didn't do things different to the TOS era. Lower Decks, Prodigy and Picard aren't doing things differently to the Berman era. Not when it comes to established designs.
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Read what I said above in my next post.
Anyway, we have to agree to disagree. We're not going to see eye-to-eye on this.
I love TOS. I'm far more likely to re-watch episodes of TOS at random whereas I won't really with TNG, DS9, or VOY. And I'm fine with what they've done in SNW and DSC overall. I have some minor issues with some of the things they've done, but not enough that I think it's worth making a huge fuss about. I'll pick my own battles.
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Different shows and Different goals. Yes, they could have updated anything in DS9. BUT, that wasn't the goal. There was no reason to spend money on the D.
As @Lord Garth notes Discovery and Strange New Worlds are modernizing an era. They are under no obligation to adhere to status quo.
Hollywood's stand point is they rather be "Trend chasers" than "Trend setters" because the thought its less risk. The movie would be coming from a TV series which was struggling to get ratings and was cancelled, not only that but most professionals involved in it were taking it off of their resumes. Star Wars comes around which was a B movie indie film with great SFX, the method of developing those models were crude and it looked like it, the major factor was Star Wars was a tremendous financial juggernaut and thus the monkeys followed. TOS was using the visual effects which were revolutionary for its time, and was done for TV, and visually was brilliant, IMO it is still brilliant to this day, but it was a failure. I think the visual standard is on point because Star Wars was a success, I can't blame Wise to aping what was seen unanimously as the "IT" factor for Sci-Fi.
One could argue that the visual standards were raised with 2001, which came out while Trek was on the air.
I agree and disagree at the same time. I agree that it raised the standard, but disagree that it would've changed much for Star Trek at that point. I personally think when Gene Roddenberry saw 2001, he probably thought, "I wish Star Trek looked like that!" When they were trying to make a Star Trek movie in the mid-'70s, they were supposed to be very low-budget. They were aiming for higher, the designs for Planet of the Titans are proof, at the very least, but I keep thinking it would've all been scaled back and end up looking more on par with the Planet of the Apes sequels.
All the Phase II test footage looks more like a '70s version of TOS than it does TMP. Part of me wishes we could've had it, but it's better that we didn't.
2001 is what Roddenberry wanted TMP to look like. I think everyone involved visually with TMP had 2001 in mind. I was reading about it last night.
Picard seemed to be a top 10 streaming show for it's run with a Rotten Tomato score something like 6th.
While I think there were issues, I think it is hard to call that a failure.
It did not go boom like Stranger Things, however.
I do buy the All Good Things allegory. That each season will be a part of Picard's life. S1 was present. S2 was past. S3 is future.
While I think there were issues, I think it is hard to call that a failure.
It did not go boom like Stranger Things, however.
I do buy the All Good Things allegory. That each season will be a part of Picard's life. S1 was present. S2 was past. S3 is future.
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