Is nuWho too complicated for newbies?

[Sindatur]

The Key To Time was a good storyline but then nobody liked the idea of a season long stor arc at least they had the benefit of two those stories being written by Robert Holmes. But on the new show River's story arc was stretched out over four years, she'd be a hard character for a newbie to understand at least to me.

Eh, how do you explain The Master, who has a much, much longer Arc? Or Time Lords and Gallifrey? Or the Evolution of the Daleks. There's a rich history throughout, that could be summed up in a sentence or two, or could be discussed for an hour

Outside of the Master trilogy I'd hardly call any of those storyarcs. But with River it was known that she'd gone to prison for murder and it wasn't til the end of the last season that we learned the how and why. But with River since we didn't know much about her ourselves she was hard to understand while they were filling out her storyline to try and explain it to somebody else.

There's callbacks all the time, the entirety of the Master's History is an arc, likewise with The Timelords, and the Time War with The Daleks, Rassilon....

My first Classic Who story was Tom Baker Robot, where he's Regenerating, then the next one was Logopolis, where he's Regenerating again, something with this much history, if you jump in, in the middle, you won't get every joke, but, you can ride along following it as best you can, and eventually become acclimated

 

[Guy Gardener]

In the final confidential last year, they flipped it, and told the story of River from River's linear perspective.

Which was odd.

 

[DWF]

Yeah my PBS station did something similar in that my first story was Robot and my second one was The Invasion Of Time, the beginning and the end of Time-Life's original package. But people are turing off the show bacause in their eyes it's too complicated, the webisodes aren't helping matters either.

 

[Sindatur]

But people are turing off the show bacause in their eyes it's too complicated, the webisodes aren't helping matters either.

People keep saying that (We had this conversation last Series with both halves of it), but, the percentage of viewers isn't going down, in fact, BBCA viewers continue to increase. I think the Average American viewer is much more likely to think something is too complicated and be driven away then the average Brit.

Yes, Live viewership is down, for everything, because the face of Television is continuing to change to time-shifted viewing, but, the percentage of available audience isn't dropping, and ratings with time shifting included are not decreasing

 

[DWF]

But people are turing off the show bacause in their eyes it's too complicated, the webisodes aren't helping matters either.

People keep saying that (We had this conversation last Series with both halves of it), but, the percentage of viewers isn't going down, in fact, BBCA viewers continue to increase. I think the Average American viewer is much more likely to think something is too complicated and be driven away then the average Brit.

Yes, Live viewership is down, for everything, because the face of Television is continuing to change to time-shifted viewing, but, the percentage of available audience isn't dropping, and ratings with time shifting included are not decreasing

Well we talking about newbies here I thought and I do think you're right about American audiences versus the British one. And I think it's hard for us to judge the effect of the recent series and it's character backstories on the newbies because we have no trouble understanding things now.

 

[MacLeod]

Yeah my PBS station did something similar in that my first story was Robot and my second one was The Invasion Of Time, the beginning and the end of Time-Life's original package. But people are turing off the show bacause in their eyes it's too complicated, the webisodes aren't helping matters either.

Are they really turning off?

Comparing roughly the first week of 2012 to 2011 for viewing figures.

In 2011 the final figure was 7 069 000 (which would have been for the return after the mid-season break)

In 2012 the overnight figure (for the season premiere) was 6.4m. By the time the final figures come in it should be around a similar mark as to last year. In terms of overnight premiere (this season to last) figures I think the difference is only 100 000. Of course last year it did't have the Para-olympics to compete against.

Once you exclude reality TV such as the X-Factor, the soaps, and sporting events. DW would more often or not occupy the number 1 slot. As it is it's about the most watched scripted Drama show in the UK.

If you look at the yearly charts,

2010, The Christmas Day special comes in at numer 10 (beaten by Sports/reality and soaps) 12.1m viewers

2009 Christmas Day Special comes in at number 7 (11.57m) beaten by sports/soaps/reality and a comedy.

2008 Christmas Day pecial comes in at number 5 (13.1m) once again only beaten by sports/reality/soaps and Wallace and Gromit.

2007 Christmas Day Special (13.31m) comes in at number 2 beaten by a soap.

So the viewing figures in general do vary somewhat for DW, even during the normal season (usally in the 7-8m for the final figures)

So there is little evidence to support a massive drop off of viewing figures for the BBC to be concerned about.

 

[Sindatur]

But people are turing off the show bacause in their eyes it's too complicated, the webisodes aren't helping matters either.

People keep saying that (We had this conversation last Series with both halves of it), but, the percentage of viewers isn't going down, in fact, BBCA viewers continue to increase. I think the Average American viewer is much more likely to think something is too complicated and be driven away then the average Brit.

Yes, Live viewership is down, for everything, because the face of Television is continuing to change to time-shifted viewing, but, the percentage of available audience isn't dropping, and ratings with time shifting included are not decreasing

Well we talking about newbies here I thought and I do think you're right about American audiences versus the British one. And I think it's hard for us to judge the effect of the recent series and it's character backstories on the newbies because we have no trouble understanding things now.

Yes, we're talking about Newbies, and with Ratings increasing over the last couple of years BBCA (And up again for the Premiere), where else could the increased audience be coming from aside from Newbies that stuck around? Remember now, this is a Series already in it's 7th season of the Revival, and, increases in viewership are not typical of shows that old

 

[DWF]

Yeah my PBS station did something similar in that my first story was Robot and my second one was The Invasion Of Time, the beginning and the end of Time-Life's original package. But people are turing off the show bacause in their eyes it's too complicated, the webisodes aren't helping matters either.

Are they really turning off?

Am I the only one who read Wamdue's post?

 

[DWF]

Cant speak for the majority, but I was in the office on Monday, and a couple of the women I work with said they stopped watching "Asylum of the Daleks" as they found it confusing.

FFS the episode was not a confusing watch, I saved my review and comments for the people in the office who did watch the whole thing.

This is just for the record and by no means scientific, but a couple of possible newbies stopped watching an ep. because they thought it was too complicated. As I said this by no means official nor does such a small sampling mewan much but it did happen. I imagine they aren't the only ones since Moffat made a comment about finding Doctor Who and Sherlock too complicated.

 

[Sindatur]

Cant speak for the majority, but I was in the office on Monday, and a couple of the women I work with said they stopped watching "Asylum of the Daleks" as they found it confusing.

FFS the episode was not a confusing watch, I saved my review and comments for the people in the office who did watch the whole thing.

This is just for the record and by no means scientific, but a couple of possible newbies stopped watching an ep. because they thought it was too complicated. As I said this by no means official nor does such a small sampling mewan much but it did happen. I imagine they aren't the only ones since Moffat made a comment about finding Doctor Who and Sherlock too complicated.

Yabbut, if the overall numbers prove over and over again this isn't a concern, and we're going to consider this anecdotal evidence of two lost viewers, don't we also need to do a "what If" on what would've made the episode approachable for them, and if that might not please existing viewers, or if a greater number of newbies (who were told the show had a rich history it calls upon for most episodes) leave because it wasn't complicated and rich enough as it was portrayed and has been for years, because it was watered down to attract those two newbies?

Did anyone ask them what show they were looking for it to have the tone/story structure of? Or poll existing viewers and other newbie potentials about how they might feel about that direction and how it might affect their viewership?

 

[DWF]

Cant speak for the majority, but I was in the office on Monday, and a couple of the women I work with said they stopped watching "Asylum of the Daleks" as they found it confusing.

FFS the episode was not a confusing watch, I saved my review and comments for the people in the office who did watch the whole thing.

This is just for the record and by no means scientific, but a couple of possible newbies stopped watching an ep. because they thought it was too complicated. As I said this by no means official nor does such a small sampling mewan much but it did happen. I imagine they aren't the only ones since Moffat made a comment about finding Doctor Who and Sherlock too complicated.

Yabbut, if the overall numbers prove over and over again this isn't a concern, and we're going to consider this anecdotal evidence of two lost viewers, don't we also need to do a "what If" on what would've made the episode approachable for them, and if that might not please existing viewers, or if a greater number of newbies (who were told the show had a rich history it calls upon for most episodes) leave because it wasn't complicated and rich enough as it was portrayed and has been for years, because it was watered down to attract those two newbies?

Did anyone ask them what show they were looking for it to have the tone/story structure of? Or poll existing viewers and other newbie potentials about how they might feel about that direction and how it might affect their viewership?

Nobody really cares about polls or story reasons for stopping a show mid-ep. if they don't like it they'll just stop watching.

As for the ratings picture, the show overall is getting about the same ratings it got during Colin Baker's first season, make of that what you will. And while the premiere ep. set a ratings record for BBCA, I haven't seen figures for an entire season yet. Still the BBC Wales seem to need BBCA now, for all the talk of good ratings I have to wonder what would happen once that support falls away.

 

[Cutter John]

Some people should probably just stick to Jersey Shore, or American Idol.

 

[Sindatur]

Nobody really cares about polls or story reasons for stopping a show mid-ep. if they don't like it they'll just stop watching.

This is true for the viewers, but, my point wasn't that they'll look at the ratings or polls and decide they should watch anyways. The point was, since the ratings are improving on BBCA, and staying steady on BBC, despite a dwindling overall available audience due to so many viewing options, it obviously doesn't matter, since more new people are staying, then leaving, and the original base isn't eroding.

As for the ratings picture, the show overall is getting about the same ratings it got during Colin Baker's first season, make of that what you will. And while the premiere ep. set a ratings record for BBCA, I haven't seen figures for an entire season yet. Still the BBC Wales seem to need BBCA now, for all the talk of good ratings I have to wonder what would happen once that support falls away.

Well, then, since Doctor Who is the highest rated scripted Drama, that proves my point about the smaller available audience, you can't fault a show for not getting 15-20 million viewers, if the viewers aren't available. Back then, it used to be easy for a popular show in America to pull in 30 million, it's now tough for the most popular shows to get over 10 million.

You had this same Doom and Gloom line last year, and you saw a whole season of ratings for last year for BBCA, and they've grown. You can't judge ratings numbers, side by side today versus 26 years ago. What would've gotten you cancelled Mid Season 1 back then, is good ratings now, especially for a smaller channel like BBCA, 8 million is very respectable on Network now, on BBCA, it's a flagship program, and on BBC it's generally the Highest Rated Scripted Drama, so it doesn't matter if that's 1 million viewers or 20 million, it's the best anyone is getting, there is no more to get and no shame in not getting more

 

[Alidar Jarok]

Yeah, at least anecdotally, the number of Americans I know watching Doctor Who is growing, not declining. Now they may burn out, but, to most of them, this is the second or third season, not the seventh or 32nd.

 

[MacLeod]

I think it's actually the 33rd not the 32nd.

 

[wamdue]

Cant speak for the majority, but I was in the office on Monday, and a couple of the women I work with said they stopped watching "Asylum of the Daleks" as they found it confusing.

FFS the episode was not a confusing watch, I saved my review and comments for the people in the office who did watch the whole thing.

This is just for the record and by no means scientific, but a couple of possible newbies stopped watching an ep. because they thought it was too complicated. As I said this by no means official nor does such a small sampling mewan much but it did happen. I imagine they aren't the only ones since Moffat made a comment about finding Doctor Who and Sherlock too complicated.

I have not been at this office long, but they are not newbies, had plenty to say about how great Tennant is, so they are not newbies to Who.

Not sure why people would watch Sherlock, if they didnt want something complicated.

So India took over the world at some point?

Or did Pakistan take over the world at some point?

United Inidastan?

I dont think there is anything to suggest India has taken over the world, just that they are major power.

Not to give Bones comments too much oxygen, I agree with the comment about tide power, that was really strange.

 

[Ghost Bones]

Not to give Bones comments too much oxygen, I agree with the comment about tide power, that was really strange.

What do you mean by that? What's wrong with agreeing with me?

 

[Alidar Jarok]

I think it's actually the 33rd not the 32nd.

I may have miscounted.

I liked the tidal power idea even if, with more thinking, it doesn't make sense.

 

[DWF]

Nobody really cares about polls or story reasons for stopping a show mid-ep. if they don't like it they'll just stop watching.

This is true for the viewers, but, my point wasn't that they'll look at the ratings or polls and decide they should watch anyways. The point was, since the ratings are improving on BBCA, and staying steady on BBC, despite a dwindling overall available audience due to so many viewing options, it obviously doesn't matter, since more new people are staying, then leaving, and the original base isn't eroding.

As for the ratings picture, the show overall is getting about the same ratings it got during Colin Baker's first season, make of that what you will. And while the premiere ep. set a ratings record for BBCA, I haven't seen figures for an entire season yet. Still the BBC Wales seem to need BBCA now, for all the talk of good ratings I have to wonder what would happen once that support falls away.

Well, then, since Doctor Who is the highest rated scripted Drama, that proves my point about the smaller available audience, you can't fault a show for not getting 15-20 million viewers, if the viewers aren't available. Back then, it used to be easy for a popular show in America to pull in 30 million, it's now tough for the most popular shows to get over 10 million.

You had this same Doom and Gloom line last year, and you saw a whole season of ratings for last year for BBCA, and they've grown. You can't judge ratings numbers, side by side today versus 26 years ago. What would've gotten you cancelled Mid Season 1 back then, is good ratings now, especially for a smaller channel like BBCA, 8 million is very respectable on Network now, on BBCA, it's a flagship program, and on BBC it's generally the Highest Rated Scripted Drama, so it doesn't matter if that's 1 million viewers or 20 million, it's the best anyone is getting, there is no more to get and no shame in not getting more

When I say I've never seen a full season's of ratings from BBCA that's what I mean. And the overnight ratigns for Dinosaurs On A Spaceship was a mere 5.5, a two million drop on BBC One from the premiere. both Torchwood and Sherlock were getting higher ratings.

But this isn't about ratings and I didn't bring ratings into it, it's about whether or not newbies feel the show is too complicated and we as older fans as I've already said really can't be judges of what the newbies feel about the show.

 

[MacLeod]

The overnight figure for "Asylum... " was 6.4m I think, so it's a drop of less 1million. The final figures might be a lot closer.