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Is it time to return to the gold standard?

Is it time to return to the gold standard?


  • Total voters
    36
  • Poll closed .
Clearly you've made up your mind that you know better, but offer up nothing to prove that. Don't believe me, fine. I will take an Economics Professor's opinion over the economy over yours any day. You are not an economist, he is. I'm willing to bet he knows more than you about the subject. Thats sorta why we have experts. I wonder if you believe in evolution or global warming? Experts have proven both, but don't take thier word for it.

I did not just blindly believe this guy either. I questioned him every step of the way, but as he explained it in more detail it began to make more and more sense. Nobody wants to believe that this country is falling apart, but yet unemployment keeps rising and the housing market gets worse. The Finance Insurace Real Estate economy can't last forever. The government produces nothing.
 
Clearly you've made up your mind that you know better, but offer up nothing to prove that. Don't believe me, fine. I will take an Economics Professor's opinion over the economy over yours any day. You are not an economist, he is. I'm willing to bet he knows more than you about the subject. Thats sorta why we have experts. I wonder if you believe in evolution or global warming? Experts have proven both, but don't take thier word for it.

I did not just blindly believe this guy either. I questioned him every step of the way, but as he explained it in more detail it began to make more and more sense. Nobody wants to believe that this country is falling apart, but yet unemployment keeps rising and the housing market gets worse. The Finance Insurace Real Estate economy can't last forever. The government produces nothing.

You have no idea what I do or don't know about economics. You are the one who has already decided our current economic structure is destined for failure yet have not provided any evidence for this. You are the one claiming we should move to a monetary system other than fiat currency. It's on you to make that case, and so far you haven't done so--you've just dropped a lot of worst-case speculation in this thread, as if to imply we're all doomed unless we go back to the gold standard or some other system.

Well, I'm not buying what you're selling. Your pitch isn't compelling.
 
Clearly you've made up your mind that you know better, but offer up nothing to prove that. Don't believe me, fine. I will take an Economics Professor's opinion over the economy over yours any day. You are not an economist, he is. I'm willing to bet he knows more than you about the subject. Thats sorta why we have experts. I wonder if you believe in evolution or global warming? Experts have proven both, but don't take thier word for it.

Don't worry, I was relying on my economics professor too. But I also relied on the experts that convinced Nixon to switch. My professor isn't some liberal keynsian either. When he ran for congress, he caused a democrat to get elected in a conservative part of Virginia. The simple fact is that a floating currency works better for correcting things like trade imbalance.

And my proof that our money still has value is that it is bought and sold world wide. If people thought it was just empty promises, they would have stopped buying it. We're not the Weimer Republic. Our money is stable, just like the currencies of many nations around the world who use the same system as us.
 
This is a handout from class. I am retyping it as it is.

Business History in Amarica

Prior to 1850

American business were small- primarily sole proprietorships with very little indebtedness. Debt service required less than 2% of earned income. Labor overhead constituted less than 40% of product cost and government overhead accounted for 1% of product cost. Agriculture was the foundation of the early American economy.

1850-1900

This was the are of industrial growth, particulary in the post-Civil War years. During this period, industry, new inventions and technology emerged and constituted the American industrial revolution. 2/3 of all men went into business and industry with a Biblical and world view that led capital formation and tenological advancement. Jer 33:3 "Call on me and I will show you great and mighty things which you do not know."

1900-1930

This period saw the growth of large corperations built around market priced labor and inovative manufacturing like mass production. More and more Americans moved from farms to the cities, creating a demand for housing and automobiles. To react to this expansion, some businesses borrowed capital to suppliment investment capital. World War I was the end of American "isolation" and shifted control to the labor unions out of management for some industries. The sentiments of the Roosevelt administration were clearly with labor and the cration of regulations to enforce its will. By the late 1920s the component of business-debt-to-product-cost for some industries had grown by 20 %, with much of it in short-term demand notes. Unionization pushed labor overhead to nearly 45 % of finished product cost. The only bright spot was that government overhead was still a paltry 2-3 %.

1930-1950

The collapse of the stock market and the money supply forced nearly half of all businesses to fold, and it opened the door for massive government regulations under the guise of "protectionism." Perhaps the most significant feature of this was the control of the money supply by a federal agency. This led the way for massive government and business debt that changed the debt-equity ratios to even worse conditions for business. Even more significant was the intrusion by local, state and federal government, which increased product cost by about 20 %.

1950-1970

Most business funding during this time shifted from equity qrowth to long-term debt growth. Fuelled by two world wars and cheap credit, along with "free" government aid, the economy soared. Labor costs went up, but few businesses cared about the nature of the American growth because profits stilloutpaced inflation as Americans ruled the technological world.

1970-1980

This period was seen as the death of American industrialization because of two factors. 1. Government control over private enterprise through the so-called "fourth branch" of government: the regulatory agencies. 2. Debt operations- many businesses literally borrowed far beyond their reasonable ability to repay.

1980-2006

The heavy burden of debt servicing began to erode the cxapital base of most businesses. In 1982 the Federal Government passed another banking act making American people the final guarantor of every banking loan to every third world country- increasing America's debt loan on a global scale.

What does the future hold?

Ultimately, the whole system must come to a halt. Businesses that are heavily indebted will reach a point when they can't repay the money they have already borrowed and must default. Like dominoes, these defaults will ripple through the economic ladder up to banks and down to depositors. The Federal government will interrupt the collapse, using massive influxes of new money. Unfortunately. these new "fixes" merely treat the symptoms and will delay, not avoid the inevitable. In the end, the government must print endless quantities of worthless money and default. Thus, comodity money will be used again as a medium of exchange.
 
Clearly you've made up your mind that you know better, but offer up nothing to prove that. Don't believe me, fine. I will take an Economics Professor's opinion over the economy over yours any day. You are not an economist, he is. I'm willing to bet he knows more than you about the subject. Thats sorta why we have experts. I wonder if you believe in evolution or global warming? Experts have proven both, but don't take thier word for it.

Don't worry, I was relying on my economics professor too. But I also relied on the experts that convinced Nixon to switch. My professor isn't some liberal keynsian either. When he ran for congress, he caused a democrat to get elected in a conservative part of Virginia. The simple fact is that a floating currency works better for correcting things like trade imbalance.

And my proof that our money still has value is that it is bought and sold world wide. If people thought it was just empty promises, they would have stopped buying it. We're not the Weimer Republic. Our money is stable, just like the currencies of many nations around the world who use the same system as us.

That explains why the Chineese dollar and the Euro is stronger:rolleyes:
 
Clearly you've made up your mind that you know better, but offer up nothing to prove that. Don't believe me, fine. I will take an Economics Professor's opinion over the economy over yours any day. You are not an economist, he is. I'm willing to bet he knows more than you about the subject. Thats sorta why we have experts. I wonder if you believe in evolution or global warming? Experts have proven both, but don't take thier word for it.

Don't worry, I was relying on my economics professor too. But I also relied on the experts that convinced Nixon to switch. My professor isn't some liberal keynsian either. When he ran for congress, he caused a democrat to get elected in a conservative part of Virginia. The simple fact is that a floating currency works better for correcting things like trade imbalance.

And my proof that our money still has value is that it is bought and sold world wide. If people thought it was just empty promises, they would have stopped buying it. We're not the Weimer Republic. Our money is stable, just like the currencies of many nations around the world who use the same system as us.

That explains why the Chineese dollar and the Euro is stronger:rolleyes:

The hell are you talking about? The Chinese Yuan is artificially kept low, so don't even try to bring it into this discussion. As I mentioned earlier, that's the issue we need to be addressing. The Euro is stronger because there is a European common market, but it has to be carefully maintained as well.

I'm not even sure what your point is supposed to be.
 
Don't know why thats a bad thing?
I never said it was a bad thing. You've brought it up a number of times and I was just curious.

One should be proud of the school they are going to. For example, I'm very proud of the school I went to, John Muir College, which is currently ranked 12th in the top 100 Universities/Colleges in the world.

Pride in one's school is never a bad thing. :techman:
 
It would be an act of economic insanity to return to a Gold Standard.

Not to mention being a practical impossibility if you went the extra mile and actually required physical reserves to be present.

Free-floating currency and commodity valuations, and fiat money, massively improve the flexibility of a modern, developed economy to adapt to changing economic circumstances. The past recession would have been MUCH worse if we hadn't seen the currency devaluations that resulted from extreme monetary loosening, and associated increases in money supply. The very CAUSE of the recession was a restriction of liquidity; a gold standard would have made that credit crunch a million times worse, while doing nothing to actually prevent it happening (a gold standard doesn't prevent an extensive derivative and collateralised debt market from existing).
 
Just out of curiosity, why start a thread with a question in the title and include a poll (which would indicate you WANT to know the opinion of others), if you really don't care what other people think?

I've always found it odd that people start threads saying "What do you think? Do you agree or disagree?" when they have no interest in what other people have to say (no matter how clear and logical their argument) and really don't want to discuss it at all.

I mean, why ask the question if you're only interested in preaching your belief? It seems rather a waste of time and effort, doesn't it?




Oh, yeah. I forgot. It's the internet.
 
Just out of curiosity, why start a thread with a question in the title and include a poll (which would indicate you WANT to know the opinion of others), if you really don't care what other people think?

I've always found it odd that people start threads saying "What do you think? Do you agree or disagree?" when they have no interest in what other people have to say (no matter how clear and logical their argument) and really don't want to discuss it at all.

I mean, why ask the question if you're only interested in preaching your belief? It seems rather a waste of time and effort, doesn't it?




Oh, yeah. I forgot. It's the internet.

I'm not preaching a belief, i'm telling facts. I've seen no argument that others have offered that is clear and logical. I think history has proven that the current system has not worked. I put a poll because I do want to know other peoples opinions. Has anyone actually took the time to watch the video? Maybe they would understand better what it is i'm talking about. Furthermore, what makes everyone so sure that I am so wrong anyway?
 
Doing such a thing would benefit Glenn Beck. I can think of no better reason to NOT go back to the "gold standard."

Heh, too true. Beck is a racist, homophobe and a scam artist. It amazes me that people buy into his stuff.

Doesn't Ron Paul also say we should go back to the gold standard? Surely that means the idea is insane.
 
I think we should go on the Arsenic Standard. It's more "Space Age" now. :mallory:
 
I'm not preaching a belief, i'm telling facts. I've seen no argument that others have offered that is clear and logical. I think history has proven that the current system has not worked.

First, anyone who starting off by saying an economic opinion is "fact" is on a hiding to nothing. Economics doesn't work that way. There's a large "fuzzy" area around the core data where interpretation and theory holds sway. Whether you prefer Hayek or Keynes is irrelevant; neither can claim absolute authority, merely a body of evidence.

Secondly, while some of the counter-arguments in this thread have been superficial, several posters including myself have given you a very robust and logical set of reasons why it would be highly unsafe to return to a gold standard in the modern interconnected global economy.

Finally, history never "proves" anything, as you can never demonstrate the counterfactual scenario. In other words, it's just as plausible (actually much more, IMO) to suggest that the recession would have been far worse with a gold standard rather than fiat money, making the current system "less worse".

On a related point, eliminating inflationary forces is impossible; markets will always tend to asset booms, and besides, some inflation is necessary.

There are two other problems in addition to the others already mentioned: 1) if you have money tied to a gold standard, if the gold supply itself alters, you have currency de/revaluation that is completely unrelated to the economic fundamentals, which has potential to wreak havoc. Fiat money is more abstract, and therefore more directly reflects abstract market forces than a physical proxy. 2) The US dollar is a reserve currency, so its strength or weakness is partly responsible for setting the price of gold. Gold operates partially as a dependent hedge rather than being only valued based on its own based on its supply. So if you switched to a gold standard, there is a very high risk that you will peg it to the wrong level as its current price is already inflated, but you can't tell by how much.

In short, if you want to take the biggest gamble possible with the economy, go back to the gold standard.
 
Just out of curiosity, why start a thread with a question in the title and include a poll (which would indicate you WANT to know the opinion of others), if you really don't care what other people think?

I've always found it odd that people start threads saying "What do you think? Do you agree or disagree?" when they have no interest in what other people have to say (no matter how clear and logical their argument) and really don't want to discuss it at all.

I mean, why ask the question if you're only interested in preaching your belief? It seems rather a waste of time and effort, doesn't it?




Oh, yeah. I forgot. It's the internet.

I'm not preaching a belief, i'm telling facts. I've seen no argument that others have offered that is clear and logical. I think history has proven that the current system has not worked. I put a poll because I do want to know other peoples opinions. Has anyone actually took the time to watch the video? Maybe they would understand better what it is i'm talking about. Furthermore, what makes everyone so sure that I am so wrong anyway?

The current system has produced and distributed more wealth than any previous system--perhaps all prior systems combined. Do you think it's a coincidence that the enormous expansion of the post-WWII global economy coincides with the world's largest economies dropping the gold standard? I don't.

Yeah, we have downturns and recessions and uncertainty, but it's foolish to pretend those same things didn't happen under the gold standard.

What you want is to return to a system that limits the creation of wealth and controls inflation while providing no other benefits. If you want to reduce living standards across the globe, by all means, bring back gold!

What you're doing right now is judging the past 60 years of economic development through the lens of current economic turmoil. Because we're in a rough spot right now you just assume the whole system "doesn't work."

Few things are as annoying as people coming in with judgments and opinions and calling them "facts." You haven't presented any compelling facts to encourage a return to the gold standard. The world's economy experienced unprecedented expansion after going off the gold standard. That's a fact.
 
I guess you are all fine with a credit based economy that allows people to borrow endless amounts of money and never having to pay it back. The reason there is so much wealth is because we have created false up ticks in the economy. Personally I'm not ok with the government spending money that they don't have and draining social security until there is nothing left. No I don't want lesser living standards, but people have to go back to saving and spending rather than just buying stuff on credit. If that leads to people not having as much shit then so be it. I'd rather have a stable system. You must realize that all those guys on Wall street that almost broke the bank, they will just do it all over again and we will be right back in this same spot again. If we were under a gold standard then all of this could have been prevented. There would be no fractional banking system. Each company or bank would have to spend within it's own means. There would be no such thing as too big to fail. If a company practices bad business then it simply fails. It doesent take down the whole world with it. The gold standard keeps em honest. No speculating, no fractional banking. The banks would have to keep 100 % of reserves and the FDIC would insure 100% and not 10 %.

You know Andrew Jackdon was against paper money and Bengal banking as well as Thomas Jefferson. These are not new ideas.
 
Just because our current system sucks doesn't mean we should go to an even worse one which is what the gold standard would be.
 
I guess you are all fine with a credit based economy that allows people to borrow endless amounts of money and never having to pay it back.

Well, they do normally have to pay it back. They require collateral. Unless you're talking about nations printing money. In that case, it's fine within reason. They have people carefully monitoring these things. The United States is not spending outside a certain percentage of our GDP, while we'd actually have to have annual budgets that do this. So it's nothing to worry about. You might fear the consequences if people screw up, but it's far better than the consequences even if things work normally with gold.

Don't equate people borrowing with government backing up money with faith. Those two aren't the same issue.

You know Andrew Jackdon was against paper money and Bengal banking as well as Thomas Jefferson. These are not new ideas.

Actually, both were against banks in general. Banks could bestow privileges on the rich to the detriment of the poor. They could loan on credit to whom they chose. Banks helped the merchant and hurt the farmer. It had nothing to do with gold vs. paper currency.
 
I guess you are all fine with a credit based economy...

I definitely am. Credit facilities have allowed us to advance far more quickly than we would have without then. On average, credit is an incalculably large boon to society and has driven up the average standard of living of the average person hugely. I'll come back to this in my final paragraph in this post.

created false up ticks in the economy.

Any economy is always "false", then, because any financial transaction involves an arbitrary assignment of value to a physical object. Where do you draw the line? Is it just fiat money that's false? Why is gold more "real" than fiat money? If someone finds a large new gold deposit, under a gold standard, all money would suddenly devalue massively; is that really more "real"? The only "real" economic transaction is one that doesn't involve money at all; a barter system. Money itself is automatically unreal, whether backed by gold or not.

I would strongly argue that since any non-barter, money-based, economy is already disengaged from "reality", it's much more logically consistent to permit money itself to be treated as a tradeable commodity, able to reflect the relative strengths and weaknesses of the country creating it.

That's a much more accurate way of setting the value of money than linking it to how much of a single metal dug up from the earth one has! The narrowness and inflexibility of the gold standard is its problem.

It's no different, logically, to linking the value of money to how many trees there are in the world. Nonsensical, topsy-turvy way of determining value.

You must realize that all those guys on Wall street that almost broke the bank, they will just do it all over again and we will be right back in this same spot again. If we were under a gold standard then all of this could have been prevented. There would be no fractional banking system. Each company or bank would have to spend within it's own means. There would be no such thing as too big to fail. If a company practices bad business then it simply fails. It doesent take down the whole world with it. The gold standard keeps em honest. No speculating, no fractional banking. The banks would have to keep 100 % of reserves and the FDIC would insure 100% and not 10 %

:lol:

Firstly, fractional-reserve banking is independent from a gold standard. A gold standard alone still allows for speculation and fractional-reserve banking. The gold standard that used to exist in our countries operated under a fractional-reserve banking system. No banks since well before the 19th century have operated under a full-reserve requirement.

The system you are recommending is a hybrid combination of a gold standard with a full-reserve requirement. In fact, if you want to have a full-reserve requirement, you don't necessarily need a gold standard, merely that the bank hold any form of asset of equivalent value.

But I accept that a bank would probably prefer to hold high value-density assets under such a system, rather than having vaults full of chickens, or whatever...

So for the sake of argument let's think through your scenario of full-reserve banking combined with a gold standard:

It is completely incompatible with the modern world. It just about works when you have a cash economy, with little international trade outside of key hubs (or rather, little trade beyond a radius of a few hundred miles). You would certainly shut down international trade almost completely.

Why? Think through the logistics... let's take a simple example eg. how does a US tourist buy something in France? Their bank has to ship gold over to a French bank? Now think of the trillions of financial transactions taking place across the globe every day and the amount of gold that would need to be moved around. Madness.

The entire global banking system would collapse instantly in the face of this transportation impracticality and then you'd have a global economic Depression that would make the Great Depression seem like a mild headwind. (fractional reserve banking under a gold standard WOULD avoid this transportation problem, but would do nothing to stop the "speculation" you are so concerned about)

You would turn the clock back to Feudalism, or at best, the early days of Mercantilism. Banking would effectively be abolished as a means of being an intermediary in the exchange of money from one person to another. It would have a purely depository function. The bank can no longer invest in society (I don't mean charity, I mean by moving money around from one group to another) so society becomes increasingly dependent on individuals with large amounts of assets.

It is a recipe for plutocracy at best, far more so than presently, or tyranny by a feudal overlord at best. Much as this might raise eyebrows from left-wingers, there is a solid argument to be made that fractional-reserve banking has done more for social mobility than almost any other human invention.

Just because our current system sucks doesn't mean we should go to an even worse one which is what the gold standard would be.

+1 for the brevity. :D
 
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