That's a good point. Not every starfleet officer is going to serve on a starship and those that do especially command level probably have more training. Also in the case of McCoy, Starfleet Academy also serves as an officer candidate school for those with advance degrees (Kirk could have also been an officer candidate instead of a cadet)
Is it really that super unrealistic Kirks rank jump...
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That's a good point. Not every starfleet officer is going to serve on a starship and those that do especially command level probably have more training. Also in the case of McCoy, Starfleet Academy also serves as an officer candidate school for those with advance degrees (Kirk could have also been an officer candidate instead of a cadet)
It is? I never got that impression. In fact if anything I got the sense that the Federation was a pretty recent development from the way Pike was talking to Kirk in the bar, so maybe the timelines are more different than we think.
Because Starfleet is only quasi-military, many non-command officers graduate with the rank of lieutenant or above. This reflects the way military doctors do not start out with the rank of ensign. However, as far as command crew go, they tend to start as ensigns and work their way up.
Based on the comments of Crusher and Troi in TNG, non-command crew are generally not placed in the chain of command as far as commanding the ship goes unless they have additional training. It seems likely that the most promising command officers who take a similar advanced command module and display the right qualities may graduate with the rank of Lieutenant.
Yevetha
Commodore
The reason Pike talked about it like something new because it was new to many viewers.
Agreed, but given how many posters in this thread like to comb over the dialogue ad absurdum I think a compelling argument could be made to say that the Federation/Starfleet has only been around since shortly before Kirk was born based upon that one line of dialogue.
I think it feels strange to debate the plot in this movie considering none of this story was meant to be taken seriously. Of course a jump to captain is ridiculous, but so is the old Spock's idea that nuKirk is "meant" to be Captain and that Kirk and young Spock are somehow destined to friendship.
NuKirk is arrogant, abrasive, and somewhat annoying. I can see him ending up as a field captain given the insane circumstances but, retaining it and the Enterprise? Starfleet is already a well-established organization with many high-profile captains and a serious chain of command. But, I digress.
PEOPLE, the movie is EYE CANDY. It's intellectual masturbation. Don't get me wrong, the movie is a lot of fun, but trying to explain plot devices the way we might the finer points of the Dominion War is just silly.
True, but nitpicking and debating the plot is all we have to do until the next movie comes out. Then we get to start all these arguments over again with brand new material.
The really silly thing is oldSpock's "you are meant to be friends so I'm going to send you back to the ship with just your word to go on. Earth may be in danger but your friendship is more important."
And just how did Spock get off Delta Vegas and to Earth? Take that shuttle? Did he take Keenser or leave him without transportation? If he took him with him, who was watching Delta Vega while Scotty was AWOL?
Park brain at door and grab some popcorn.
And just how did Spock get off Delta Vegas and to Earth? Take that shuttle? Did he take Keenser or leave him without transportation? If he took him with him, who was watching Delta Vega while Scotty was AWOL?
Park brain at door and grab some popcorn.
My take on the matter with Captain Kirk becoming Captain is it's no more silly than half of the stuff in Starfleet over the years.
It's also entirely reasonable if Admiral Pike is going to be micromanaging Kirk and Spock from a desk.
In which case, Kirk is really just Pike's First Officer still.
His "legs" if I may be crass.
It's also entirely reasonable if Admiral Pike is going to be micromanaging Kirk and Spock from a desk.
In which case, Kirk is really just Pike's First Officer still.
His "legs" if I may be crass.
Twenty wrongs don't make a right.
I don't know, I don't really have any desire to see a proper military Star Trek. I actually am still steamed that Archer and T'Pol never got together and the same with Janeway and Chakotay.
Twenty wrongs don't make a right.
I don't know, I don't really have any desire to see a proper military Star Trek. I actually am still steamed that Archer and T'Pol never got together and the same with Janeway and Chakotay.
Meh, I'm happy for any characters to get together as long as they explore the reasons why that isn't necessarily a good idea. Janeway and Chakotay would have been fascinating but I never really got that vibe with Archer and T'Pol. Plus I don't think it should be compulsory for men and women working together to be at the mercy of their desires. While it is common to meet a partner through work, most professionals don't seek a partner in their immediate workplace (Voyager was an obvious exception since they had little choice).
There are many sensible reasons why Kirk should not be promoted so quickly. If they explore those I'm happier. If it's a publicity stunt and they give him boring, easy assignments, because they are treating him with kid gloves, that's cool. If they send a captain with no diplomatic experience as a key negotiator at a vital conference, I'd have to question their wisdom.
I am interested if they'll play off the whole, "Starfleet is mostly rookies" thing. It's not like there's a surplus of officers they can promote in Kirk's place. When starships are destroyed, for the most part, EVERYONE DIES.
Especially with Nero involved.
"So how many guys above the rank of lieutenant have combat experience?"
"Nine."
"ARE YOU KIDDING ME?"
Especially with Nero involved.
"So how many guys above the rank of lieutenant have combat experience?"
"Nine."
"ARE YOU KIDDING ME?"
Unlikely, unless Starfleet is logistically incompetent. One assumes that the 'fleet' in the Laurentian system has plenty of crew with more experience than Kirk. Even if they didn't, in times of war civilians with experience can be recruited and promoted to ranks commensurate with their civilian experience (like McCoy). There are plenty of other options available before you have to resort to turning cadets into captains!
First Officer into a Captain. Admittedly, that was a field promotion. It's questionable, I suppose, whether Starfleet rules require Captains to have promotions approved by Starfleet Command or whether it can be done instantaneously.
I lean towards the later.
Even then, we come down to the question of whether its Starfleet who made Kirk Captain of the Enterprise or Admiral Pike. If the Enterprise is under the command of whatever fleet Pike is in charge of (presuming he is) then under the same laws that allowed him to promote Kirk to first officer - he may have been the one who promoted him to Captain.
I think generally a field promotion would have to be approved by Starfleet to become official but I suspect that they would often simply rubber stamp the process. There might be some dialogue relating to Picard promoting Wesley in TNG.
What's hilarious is the way the plot of the movie reflects the captain of the submarine giving Homer a field promotion in the Simpsons, with foreseeable disastrous consequences. As I keep saying, if NuSpock had not been in charge, preventing Kirk from charging off after the Kelvin, it's very likely that the Enterprise and Earth would have been destroyed. Kirk deserved a commendation for bravery, possibly even a promotion to Lt-commander but putting him in a position where impetuous decisions cannot be overruled by more experienced heads is a disaster waiting to happen unless Kirk is written as a very different character!
FYI - Kirk was not really given a field promotion as First officer is not a rank, it is a position. He was just given a field appointment from stowaway to the position of first officer (still a promotion admittedly). This gives us a very fuzzy chain of command, considering that the ship would have had a more experienced second officer on board who remains conspicuously absent even after Spock steps down. It's possible that the second officer was only a Lt but in TOS the chief engineer, a Lt-commander, was second officer.
Well, Kirk did a coup against Spock and took over the ship with no one gainsaying him. I doubt anyone who DIDN'T step up to the plate in that situation is going to be very favored by Starfleet.
Kirk is lucky he was first officer and Spock stepped aside or he would have been guilty of mutiny (or piracy whether or not Starfleet considered him part of the crew) and everyone else chewed out for letting him get away with it.
Thankfully, Admiral Pike can explain what he meant. Whether said promotion might have included a promotion to Lieutenant Commander or whether it was just a position.
(Admiral Pike seems to have some supernatural love of Kirk - as if he knows Kirk will be a demigod and thinks he can just shove him off the deep end)
It would have been bad for Kirk though, if Spock had left him on that world because Spock was the only witness to his promotion.
You have to pity the poor Chief Engineer of the Enterprise as well, who gets treated even worse than Spock. One day, he's head of the most powerful ship in the galaxy and the next a guy manning a station in Space Antarctica takes his job.
The chief engineer before Scotty was Olsen. Judging from what we saw of him, he probably would have gotten everyone killed faster than Kirk.
I'm not sure. He was stated as 'Engineer Olsen' rather than Chief Engineer Olsen. I don't recall seeing his rank but he may not even have been an officer.
Well, it looks as though he was billed as the chief engineer even if not mentioned as such. It does make sense that Scotty would waltz in and take over then. Yikes, if he was second officer they would indeed have been in trouble.
However, since Dr Puri was a man and the male comms officer was replaced by Uhura, this also means that Pike didn't have a single woman among his senior staff.
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Well, given Number One's absence they made it MORE sexist than the source material and that wasn't easy! Who could have predicted that Nero's interference would have led 23rd century women of all species to be even less ambitious than 1960s Earth women? Damn that Butterfly Effect!
