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Is it really that super unrealistic Kirks rank jump...

I am, first and foremost, a nautical historian. It is my life's passion. Second I am a sailor. Third, a military historian. And that preposterous promotion managed to insult me on all three counts!

Didn't keep me from buying the film on DVD (twice!) and won't keep me from going to see the sequel, but it did leave me with a bad taste in my mind and the vague feeling that someone had deliberately slighted my intelligence.

I'm a lawyer not a nautical historian and I pretty much agree with everything you say except I really didn't hate Nemesis that much, I rather liked Saldana, and I am still buying Trek memorabilia! In fact I'm building a Polar Lights 1:350 TMP refit even as we speak (well ok, not at exactly the same moment). Apart from that, everything you say.

If Enterprise had had 1/2 the pace of the movie it would have been a cracking show.
 
Welcome aboard, malchya!

Prepared to get slammed for your well-reasoned reservations.
 
Welcome aboard, malchya!

Prepared to get slammed for your well-reasoned reservations.
Eh, I hope that won't be necessary.

What he posted, while hardly guaranteed to meet with agreement from all quarters, did bear the marks of a reasoned critique (and he did admit to liking a few things, in spite of himself.) Further, he did not use it as an opportunity to take a swipe at the ancestry, morals, intelligence and/or dietary habits of those who found less about the movie to dislike than had he - you have no idea how refreshing I find that.

In fact, the only thing I'd really have been tempted to point out myself in response to malchya's post is that, if J.J. Abrams was on record as stating that the movie was aimed at a wider audience and not made exclusively for established, active fans of Star Trek, then very likely neither was he going out of his way to directly insult nautical historians, sailors or military historians, whether collectively or individually. Just sayin'. ;)

Welcome to the funhouse, malchya.
 
Hi malchya,

I too admire your balanced appraisal.

Putting aside my personal reservations, it did seem that a few shortcuts were taken. The most blatant being the infamous promotion.

*** Edit ***

Yeah, there is no doubt that all the Trek movies have a lot of dumb stuff in. The Nitpickers' Guides are great fun. I did feel that NuTrek went a couple of steps further than most though.

I take it you're a using "step" as a euphemism for "order of magnitude"? :lol:
 
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Yeah, there is no doubt that all the Trek movies have a lot of dumb stuff in. The Nitpickers' Guides are great fun. I did feel that NuTrek went a couple of steps further than most though.

I take it you're a using "step" as a euphemism for "order of magnitude"? :lol:

I have read the Nitpicker's Guide to TOS and there are some VRY dumb things in there. I bet the TNG guide is just as silly. To JJ's credit he just managed to pack an awful lot in a short space of time!
 
Thank you all for your welcome! Nice to find the company of like minded people.

For the record, I'm back to buying Trek items and do I ever regret giving up what I had! I miss my old micro-machines and FASA miniatures! Not to mention the literally boxes of blueprints, deck plans, technical manuals and etc. that I gave up.

Oh, well. Didn't really have room for all of them on my sloop anyway. But now I'm back on the hard and back to collecting Trek.

And yes, I did enjoy the film. Though I have trouble justifying that enjoyment to my 17 year old daughter (also a fan) and any of my old friends who used to game FASA Trek with me 30 years ago.
 
But the thing that shattered my willing suspension of disbelief, that slammed me forcibly back into the 21st century and left me walking out of the theater shaking my head and sighing was the promotion.

Oh, Good Lord! Let's get real for a minute here, people! Doesn't anyone understand the way rank structure works in an hierarchical institution? Does no one know the purpose behind a unified chain of command? Aargghh!!

I mean, okay, the fellow saved the planet. Fine. Give him a two grade promotion, a chestful of medals and some kind of monetary reward that makes him wealthy beyond the dreams of avarice; sort of a 23rd century form of prize and or head money. Great. He's suitably rewarded and everyone has a hero. But do not place an unseasoned kid with no practical command experience whatsoever in charge of the single most destructive vessel known to man. Please. If you do, where can I get off?

I am, first and foremost, a nautical historian. It is my life's passion. Second I am a sailor. Third, a military historian. And that preposterous promotion managed to insult me on all three counts!

Didn't keep me from buying the film on DVD (twice!) and won't keep me from going to see the sequel, but it did leave me with a bad taste in my mind and the vague feeling that someone had deliberately slighted my intelligence.

Are you me? (Other than the sailor part.... damn. ;) )

We're very much on the same bench here. I bought the Blu Ray. Kind of enjoyed it. Still watch the film from time to time at home, but I still squirm in my seat a bit.

I loved the action, but hated what the action WAS. Sigh. Seeing Vulcan implode (THAT BIG??) from an ice planet in another solar system? Oh, sure.

God, the things that went wrong make me so mad. I feel cheated somehow.
 
i'm jumping in too...

I think it's relative unrealistic...but again "It's only a TV show" (or in this case, movie). So we'd need a number of excuses to push Kirk into a place where he's best qualified.


1. He knows the ship better than almost anyone. Pike said that Kirk's test scores were off the charts (i.e. smart). He lived near the shipyard. So he might hav emade friends among the workers, and learned what was going on, maybe hear of whatever special changes were made, etc. Also since, he wasn't attached any part (like the crew making the warp engine, the crew building the sick bay), he wasn't tied into the cliques that often form (and thus not share info), and could connect the different aspects fo the ship in his mind. He'd be like Will Decker of TMP.


2. He knows the crew better than anyone. Again, he lived near the shipyard, and as we see from his first encounter with Uhura, future crew members visted the area (if not live there for a short period). Despite the fight he started, he might have met others, and already earned their respect (maybe help them with a class project, give them a pep talk, etc.). Over the several years that Enterprise was being built, different personnel might come at different points (such as to supervise a system being built), then re-assigned for stints on other ships if they weren't going back to the Academy. Kirk would have bene one fo the few constants, and while the crew members missed each other, he would have known nearly all of them at some point.


3. He had outside "college credit". Since Kirk was a bit older, it's probable he went to college already, and had taken courses that could be transferred in, allowing him to do things like take advanced classes that a command officer would take. (Assuming Starfleet Academy was a type of college...Kirk could have been taking graduate level classes that potential Captains might have taken later on in their career)


4. He had outside/extra experience. Kirk might have been in space already during his pre-Academy days, even "commanded" a ship of some sort, or did something that people could look at later and say (oh yeah, he's a leader), like lead some rescue. During his Academy days, because he had the aforementioned credits, was able to take a semester and/or summer to spend it on a starship. If there was a scenario like DS9's "The Valiant", his brief command experience would be on record.


5. The Academy had already "command tracked" him. (Please forgive the follwoing -- but just too give some "logic") From my days with the fan group Starfleet Command, graduating from the Academy already made you an officer -- Ensign. From what we saw in TWOK, it seems like the best graduates might be able to prove themselves enough to straightaway become a LT junior grade, or even a full LT. Perhaps even the best of the best might qualify for LT Commander, or at least shorten the length of time they needed to stay as a LT before promotion. So Kirk was the best of the best in his class (disregarding behavior)


6. Not enough command officers. With the Romulan attack, perhaps some of the more experienced, command-track officers joined existing crew complements, to shore them up and make sure they could take care of them enemy. (Kinda like what we see in TWOK -- in a sense) Unfortunately, they perished. Those that outrank Kirk that wer eleft may not have been the best choices for overall command of a ship. They might have been a great Chief Engineer or Chief COmmunications Officer, but they wouldn't make a great overall comman officer (i.e. they are stuck in their 'box").

7. Admiral Pike. Surely Pike had A LOT of credibility with the top brass, just by himself. But how much more so when it's revealed that's he's the one who recruited Kirk, the savior of the Federation, it's obvious Pike has good judgment. And since Pike (apparently) can't serve on the Enterprise anymore, he feels like Kirk earned the trust Pike placed in him way back when. So Pike feels most comfortable handing over his "baby" to the man who brought the ship, and the Federation, from the brink of destruction. The only other person would have been Spock, who Pike might know to be better suited as First Officer. And in "the real world", politicians and comapny managers often hire "friends and family" so underqualified people get positons ahead of the more qualified.



I too would have liked a "3 years later" type of deal where Kirk has had a chance to earn his stripes.

But it might make a good story if some of his crew has the same doubts we express, and Kirk wins them over by some great command decisions. (Maybe have Ben Finney character express that -- but without the TOS episode story line)
 
Yeah, there is no doubt that all the Trek movies have a lot of dumb stuff in. The Nitpickers' Guides are great fun. I did feel that NuTrek went a couple of steps further than most though.

I take it you're a using "step" as a euphemism for "order of magnitude"? :lol:

I have read the Nitpicker's Guide to TOS and there are some VRY dumb things in there. I bet the TNG guide is just as silly. To JJ's credit he just managed to pack an awful lot in a short space of time!

I will defend the TNG Guide with my life :) It's a fun read, and the nice thing about successive volumes is that the author fesses up to mistakes from previous volumes or nits that he missed even with multiple viewings.
 
i'm jumping in too...

I think it's relative unrealistic...but again "It's only a TV show" (or in this case, movie). So we'd need a number of excuses to push Kirk into a place where he's best qualified.

<major snip>

Dude, that's fanwankery of the first water. Damn.

"Might have" and "could have" is BS in terms of: "if it's not in the film, or referred to in the film, it didn't happen." That' how canon is defined. Not by wishful thinking.

When you have to create elaborate workarounds to explain plot holes, you're just showing how bad the holes were.
 
I loved the action, but hated what the action WAS. Sigh. Seeing Vulcan implode (THAT BIG??) from an ice planet in another solar system? Oh, sure.

That was your assumption and implication. Obviously it's in the same system since Vulcan could be seen from there (and before you say it, I'm more than well aware of WNMHGB.) Also the Enterprise never appeared to be at warp between Vulcan and Delta Vega, but rather at full impulse, so there's no reason to assume it's in another solar system.
 
I loved the action, but hated what the action WAS. Sigh. Seeing Vulcan implode (THAT BIG??) from an ice planet in another solar system? Oh, sure.

That was your assumption and implication. Obviously it's in the same system since Vulcan could be seen from there (and before you say it, I'm more than well aware of WNMHGB.) Also the Enterprise never appeared to be at warp between Vulcan and Delta Vega, but rather at full impulse, so there's no reason to assume it's in another solar system.

How dare someone who has seen TOS assume that a planet called Delta Vega is where the planet Delta Vega in TOS was.
 
i'm jumping in too...

I think it's relative unrealistic...but again "It's only a TV show" (or in this case, movie). So we'd need a number of excuses to push Kirk into a place where he's best qualified.

<major snip>

Dude, that's fanwankery of the first water. Damn.

"Might have" and "could have" is BS in terms of: "if it's not in the film, or referred to in the film, it didn't happen." That' how canon is defined. Not by wishful thinking.

When you have to create elaborate workarounds to explain plot holes, you're just showing how bad the holes were.

Isn't that what Star Trek fans do? We make excuses to justify obvious mistakes, so our enjoyment of Trek won't be derailed by real life, and things like consistency.

i'm not saying my theory is canon or even fanon...just a creative way to excuse Kirk's instant promotion . By the way...is there any wiggle room as to length between Kirk's saving Earth and his promotion to Captain? COuld it be a year or two? That could at least justify him being a Lt. Commander and showing some more command potential before promoting him to Captain the Enterprise
 
How dare someone who has seen TOS assume that a planet called Delta Vega is where the planet Delta Vega in TOS was.

How dare someone assume there could be two places called Delta Vega.

Devon said:
Obviously it's in the same system since Vulcan could be seen from there

Even if we assume it's in the same system, Vulcan's still too big.

Devon said:
Also the Enterprise never appeared to be at warp between Vulcan and Delta Vega, but rather at full impulse

But why wouldn't the Enterprise have been at warp when traveling away from Vulcan? Why would they be leaving the system at impulse before knowing they had someone to drop off?
 
By the way...is there any wiggle room as to length between Kirk's saving Earth and his promotion to Captain? COuld it be a year or two?
It's not indicated at all, but you have to figure that repairs to Enterprise's rather extensive damage would have taken no insignificant amount of time and that Pike (also significantly damaged, we're given to believe) wouldn't have been ready to attend any ceremony, even in a wheelchair, until having gone through a period of treatment and recuperation.

Could it have been as long as a year? Two? The story doesn't say, one way or the other, so until that changes, make it as long as you want - no one's stopping you.

Of course, you'll want to be ready to revise later, as new details become available (but that was always part of the deal, wasn't it?)
 
"Good news is, you've been promoted to Captain, get your dress uniform on and report to the auditorium"

"Awesome, wait, whats the bad news?"

"You're ship'll be ready in about 6 months"

"What?!"
 
Even if we assume it's in the same system, Vulcan's still too big.

Close orbits is all.

Devon said:
But why wouldn't the Enterprise have been at warp when traveling away from Vulcan? Why would they be leaving the system at impulse before knowing they had someone to drop off?

They still didn't know where they were going. Kirk wanted to stop Nero, Spock wanted to meet up in the Laurentian system. Fight ensues.. Kirk is dropped off at nearby planet!
 
It's clearly not in same solar system. Scotty has a working transporter that can send somebody up to about a light year but he has to sit, starving, while waiting for a supply ship when he could a) beam to Vulcan; or b) take his shuttle to Vulcan or c) radio Vulcan and ask them to beam him supplies.

The destruction of Vulcan is a psychic representation of how Spock felt his planet die. No need to be literal.
 
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