Is Generations REALLY That Bad???

[Gojira]

It was obvious by the time the TNG films came around that Enterprises were now disposable products. The -D in the registry was a constant reminder of that, leading to Picard's "plenty of letters left in the alphabet" line in FC.

After the first Enterprise gets blown up it does become anticlimactic.

From what I have read they didn't blow up the Enterprise D just to make room for the Enterprise E they had a practical motive. They found that the Enterprise D didn't photograph well on the large screen and didn't look good so they needed a design that would look better shot from different angles.

Precisely. The attempts to compensate for this via high-contrast lighting with lots of shadows didn't really do the trick.

So they had to have some on-screen way to get rid of it even though the main motive really didn't have much to do with the story.

 

[Mr_Homn]

Pros: ... the Nexus was a fantastic concept brought to life in a wonderful way...

really?

 

[CaptainMatt]

The Nexus is space fantasy at its worst IMHO. It has very little science to back it up with and makes little sense as used in the story itself.

 

[Ranger3]

It was obvious by the time the TNG films came around that Enterprises were now disposable products. The -D in the registry was a constant reminder of that, leading to Picard's "plenty of letters left in the alphabet" line in FC.

After the first Enterprise gets blown up it does become anticlimactic.

From what I have read they didn't blow up the Enterprise D just to make room for the Enterprise E they had a practical motive. They found that the Enterprise D didn't photograph well on the large screen and didn't look good so they needed a design that would look better shot from different angles.

Precisely. The attempts to compensate for this via high-contrast lighting with lots of shadows didn't really do the trick.

So they had to have some on-screen way to get rid of it even though the main motive really didn't have much to do with the story.

Berman, Braga, and Moore could have written in the screenplay that the Galaxy-class was being retired and had Picard and crew transfer to the new Enterprise-E. That would have been better than just repeating what was done a decade before in Star Trek III - The Search For Spock.

 

[Gojira]

It was obvious by the time the TNG films came around that Enterprises were now disposable products. The -D in the registry was a constant reminder of that, leading to Picard's "plenty of letters left in the alphabet" line in FC.

After the first Enterprise gets blown up it does become anticlimactic.

Precisely. The attempts to compensate for this via high-contrast lighting with lots of shadows didn't really do the trick.

So they had to have some on-screen way to get rid of it even though the main motive really didn't have much to do with the story.

Berman, Braga, and Moore could have written in the screenplay that the Galaxy-class was being retired and had Picard and crew transfer to the new Enterprise-E. That would have been better than just repeating what was done a decade before in Star Trek III - The Search For Spock.

I agree that would have been better. But since the discovery that the D model didn't film well for the movie probably came too late for them to come up with a new design and new model for the budget.

 

[ScottDS]

For those of you who haven't listened to it yet, I highly recommend giving Ron Moore and Brannon Braga's commentary a shot. I'd say they address a good 90% of the problems mentioned here.

As for me, I loved the film when I first saw it at age 11 but it hasn't aged well. There's some good stuff in it but more often than not, it comes across as "silly." This film is a textbook case as to why studio interference isn't always a good thing. In short, Paramount presented the filmmakers with a laundry list of things that needed to be included.

MY LIKES:

-I thought the movie looked beautiful and was shot very well... it really seemed like the filmmakers were trying to make a "movie"... I may be in the minority but I never minded the dark lighting on the Enterprise (rest in peace, John Alonzo ASC)
-the visual effects... ILM knocks one out of the park (stock footage notwithstanding, though I believe the Enterprise flyby was optically recomposited from the original elements)
-the modifications made to the Enterprise-D bridge... too bad the ship was destroyed!
-Shatner... I also enjoyed seeing Koenig and Doohan but some of their dialogue is cringe-inducing ("I vas never that young")
-some familiar faces: Alan Ruck, Jenette Goldstein, Tim Russ, Tom Kopache, and Glenn Morshower
-the stellar cartography scene (might be the best scene in the film)
-the modifications made to the Enterprise-A bridge to turn it into the Enterprise-B bridge
-the opening title sequence w/ the champagne bottle
-the Nexus imagery... the shot of the ribbon rolling past the mountain (which was used in all the TV ads and trailers) is probably bigger than anything seen in Insurrection or Nemesis
-Malcolm McDowell (he does what he can but I shudder to think of the character played by a lesser actor)
-maybe I'm an old softy but I liked Picard's Nexus fantasy
-Dennis McCarthy's music score is good, but not great
-the space battle, especially the "Fire at will" line, followed by a shot of Will Riker (I don't know if this was intentional)... but yeah, it should've taken more than an old BoP to take out the Enterprise

MY DISLIKES:

-to paraphrase the Ron Moore/Brannon Braga commentary, the idea of the Nexus was a good one but was too ill-defined and just opened itself up to plot holes
-Data's "Oh, shit" line doesn't sit well with me for some reason
-the whole "Let's go back in time five minutes before instead of, say, ten years" plot hole
-the idea of existing in the Nexus as an "echo" (Moore/Braga have no explanation for this)
-Soran's entire plan... they say he can't fly into the Nexus with a ship but how did he get there in the first place?
-too much technobabble, and it's worse coming from Scotty in the Ent-B scenes
-Captain Harriman's incompetence... but if he knew his stuff, he wouldn't need Kirk's help
-maybe it was a SAG thing but couldn't they have dug up some photos of Robert and Rene from the "Family" episode to put in Picard's album?
-Paramount is still sitting on several deleted scenes that have never been "officially" released
-I don't mind Kirk's death but the filmmakers could've spared themselves years of grief if they'd let him live!

 

[BrownShatner]

They'd have been better off remaking Yesterday's Enterprise with Kirk and co. taking Ent-A to a museum and diverting to save the Klingons from a treacherous Romulan attack. Instead of a boring retirement they all go out in a blaze of glory saving the Federation one last time. Repetative-yes- better than Generations YEEEEEEEEEEEEESSSSSSSSSSSSSS

That's actually a great idea. The fans would have complained about the ripoff plot, but they would have loved it when the Enterprise-D was under heavy Romulan fire, shields failing and then all of a sudden Captain Kirk and the 1701-A warps-in to save the day.

Bonus: no fistfights between 60 year old men.

 

[Gojira]

For those of you who haven't listened to it yet, I highly recommend giving Ron Moore and Brannon Braga's commentary a shot. I'd say they address a good 90% of the problems mentioned here.

As for me, I loved the film when I first saw it at age 11 but it hasn't aged well. There's some good stuff in it but more often than not, it comes across as "silly." This film is a textbook case as to why studio interference isn't always a good thing. In short, Paramount presented the filmmakers with a laundry list of things that needed to be included.

MY LIKES:

-I thought the movie looked beautiful and was shot very well... it really seemed like the filmmakers were trying to make a "movie"... I may be in the minority but I never minded the dark lighting on the Enterprise (rest in peace, John Alonzo ASC)
-the visual effects... ILM knocks one out of the park (stock footage notwithstanding, though I believe the Enterprise flyby was optically recomposited from the original elements)
-the modifications made to the Enterprise-D bridge... too bad the ship was destroyed!
-Shatner... I also enjoyed seeing Koenig and Doohan but some of their dialogue is cringe-inducing ("I vas never that young")
-some familiar faces: Alan Ruck, Jenette Goldstein, Tim Russ, Tom Kopache, and Glenn Morshower
-the stellar cartography scene (might be the best scene in the film)
-the modifications made to the Enterprise-A bridge to turn it into the Enterprise-B bridge
-the opening title sequence w/ the champagne bottle
-the Nexus imagery... the shot of the ribbon rolling past the mountain (which was used in all the TV ads and trailers) is probably bigger than anything seen in Insurrection or Nemesis
-Malcolm McDowell (he does what he can but I shudder to think of the character played by a lesser actor)
-maybe I'm an old softy but I liked Picard's Nexus fantasy
-Dennis McCarthy's music score is good, but not great
-the space battle, especially the "Fire at will" line, followed by a shot of Will Riker (I don't know if this was intentional)... but yeah, it should've taken more than an old BoP to take out the Enterprise

MY DISLIKES:

-to paraphrase the Ron Moore/Brannon Braga commentary, the idea of the Nexus was a good one but was too ill-defined and just opened itself up to plot holes
-Data's "Oh, shit" line doesn't sit well with me for some reason
-the whole "Let's go back in time five minutes before instead of, say, ten years" plot hole
-the idea of existing in the Nexus as an "echo" (Moore/Braga have no explanation for this)
-Soran's entire plan... they say he can't fly into the Nexus with a ship but how did he get there in the first place?
-too much technobabble, and it's worse coming from Scotty in the Ent-B scenes
-Captain Harriman's incompetence... but if he knew his stuff, he wouldn't need Kirk's help
-maybe it was a SAG thing but couldn't they have dug up some photos of Robert and Rene from the "Family" episode to put in Picard's album?
-Paramount is still sitting on several deleted scenes that have never been "officially" released
-I don't mind Kirk's death but the filmmakers could've spared themselves years of grief if they'd let him live!

Very well said!

 

[Maurice]

After the first Enterprise gets blown up it does become anticlimactic.



So they had to have some on-screen way to get rid of it even though the main motive really didn't have much to do with the story.

Berman, Braga, and Moore could have written in the screenplay that the Galaxy-class was being retired and had Picard and crew transfer to the new Enterprise-E. That would have been better than just repeating what was done a decade before in Star Trek III - The Search For Spock.

I agree that would have been better. But since the discovery that the D model didn't film well for the movie probably came too late for them to come up with a new design and new model for the budget.

Oh Baloney.

The model was fine, but ILM never liked the D, much as they didn't like the refit. It wasn't the style of model most of them liked to build. There's nothing inherently better about the E photographically. In fact, it has no strong silhouette from many angles.

The producers didn't blow up the ship because of the design of the model, they just wanted a new ship, regardless what rationalizations that some made.

 

[WRStone]

As is usually the case, Harry S. Plinkett explains my views on Generations better than I can.

Dakota Smith

 

[horatio83]

Berman, Braga, and Moore could have written in the screenplay that the Galaxy-class was being retired and had Picard and crew transfer to the new Enterprise-E. That would have been better than just repeating what was done a decade before in Star Trek III - The Search For Spock.

I agree that would have been better. But since the discovery that the D model didn't film well for the movie probably came too late for them to come up with a new design and new model for the budget.

Oh Baloney.

The model was fine, but ILM never liked the D, much as they didn't like the refit. It wasn't the style of model most of them liked to build. There's nothing inherently better about the E photographically. In fact, it has no strong silhouette from many angles.

The producers didn't blow up the ship because of the design of the model, they just wanted a new ship, regardless what rationalizations that some made.

My impression was that the interior sets were the main problem.

 

[Lost Astronaut]

I'm starting to think that a lot of the Generations hate comes from TOS fans who dislike TNG. I think these people are searching for a way to bash TNG without it seeming unfair, and so they take something like the death of Kirk (which was REALLY poorly executed), blow it completely out of proportion, and use it to bash the entire film. It's completely unfair, and it tarnishes the reputation of an otherwise good film.

I was a huge TNG fan when this movie came out in 1994. I was really looking forward to the transition to films - there was so much potential for telling epic, meaningful stories that could go beyond the television format TNG had come from and finally give this crew (onscreen and off) a chance to do something really ambitious with Star Trek as a whole. The prospect of seeing Kirk and Picard meet on the big screen really reinforced this belief.

I just remember walking out of the theater with a pretty shallow, empty feeling. I wanted to like it very badly. I was too young to really put my finger on it at the time, but the problem is that there really is no story to this movie - just a bunch of stuff that happens that is ultimately pretty unconnected and unmotivated. There is a profound lack of meaning in any of the film's major plot points, and the storytelling draws from some of the worst habits the series had picked up by its last few seasons.

Kirk's death is the most cited example. While there may be some poetic justice in Kirk dying as essentially one of Picard's redshirts (this is something I actually kind of like when I think about it), the foundation upon which this moment is built lacks any drama:

1. The planet being defended has no identity for the audience except as a cosmic damsel tied to the train tracks.

2. Soran is a one dimensional character and a sad waste of someone as mischievous onscreen as Malcolm McDowell.

3. The plan to re-enter the Nexus seems unnecessarily convoluted, especially given that we soon discover that Kirk made it into the Nexus just fine from the Enterprise B. Obviously Guinan and Soran had made it there from their ship as well, or Soran wouldn't be trying so hard to get back in. This seriously undermines the validity of the villain's plan, and how the audience responds to it.

4. Everything that happens in the Nexus rings utterly false. I could go on and on about this, but ultimately I think it's because Picard breaks out of his fantasy too easily, and this makes the supposed power of the Nexus extremely underwhelming. The sequence inside the Nexus should really have been the meat of the film, a place where we can see these characters in a different light, to see how they tick in a new way we couldn't perceive or experience before. This would help make the Nexus actually seem a little more special than the Big Holodeck in the Sky.

Instead of simply being reminded of his duty by a shiny Hallmark ornament, there needs to be an arc for Picard in there that leads him to want to leave it as badly as Soran wants in. He could grow to hate it in there - show us that the lack of any challenge is eating away at him and this ultimately drives him to want to leave. This would make his scenes with Kirk at the farm, trying to convince him to leave and join forces, much more interesting and genuine as well. As it is, Picard's desire to leave is predicated upon him simply being The Good Guy.

Hell, have Picard meet Soran in there too, and show us the side of him that isn't the vengeful, selfish, evil caricature he is on the outside, but he's so addicted to the Nexus that he can't bring himself to leave voluntarily and stop himself either. It would make both Soran and the sequence in the Nexus more interesting, and more meaningful.

5. Underuse of Kirk/Shatner. His scenes are some of the brighter spots of the film. It would have been nice for him to have had a bit more substantial interaction with the 24th Century than what we saw. Maybe a little fanwanky, but so was the idea of telling a canon story of Picard meeting Kirk in the first place. If you're gonna do it, do it big and make it satisfying.

6. The destruction of the ship is handled really badly. We've seen these characters think and fight their way out of much more dire circumstances, against much more cunning enemies, throughout the previous seven years of the series. Their defeat in this movie feels more like a pathetic anticlimax to all that came before.

7. The concept of the Nexus in general is just too ambiguous and ill-defined for it to make much sense. Is it heaven? Is it a time portal? Both? In practice it's whatever the story wants it to be at any given moment.

8. The Nexus' own rules make it too easy to defeat Soran's plan, but Picard for some reason has to take the more difficult path with no rationale for this being apparent in the film itself. This is the well-worn argument about why Picard didn't just return to Ten-Forward and arrest Soran then, and maybe bring out Kirk with him for proof/beers. Nerds like us can infer that Picard is sworn to uphold some kind of temporal integrity directive and he's trying to do as little damage to the timeline as possible, but this language and these concepts are entirely absent from the film itself. As it is, this is a gaping plot hole that further undercuts any of the jeopardy, and makes Picard out to be kind of an idiot for making the choice that he did.

All of this leads to an underwhelming experience, undercutting the dramatic power of the most poignant moment in the film - when Kirk himself ultimately, finally, gives his own life in defense of others as others had done for him so many times in the past. This could have been a really, truly moving scene, but unfortunately the film around it fails to support it with any genuine sense of dramatic necessity or inevitability. It has many parts that fail to come together in any kind of cohesive, satisfying whole, so it all ultimately comes across as just a bunch of stuff that happens, and then its over.

Things I did like? I know a lot of people hate the lighting, but I still think the D never looked better, inside and outside, than it did in this movie. I actually like Data's story, though again I think the instigation for installing the emotion chip is kind of foolish and hollow, unconnected to the rest of the plot. The music is actually pretty good too. Stellar cartography was a cool new set, and was one of the better actual scenes of the film as well. I thought Kirk's Nexus fantasy was actually pretty nicely done, and if I had my own Nexus time machine thing this is something I wouldn't go back and change about this movie.

I also am still a huge TNG fan and probably count it as my favorite series, even if I think most of their films, this one especially, were ultimately lacking in real cinematic drama and scope.

 

[sonak]

those are mostly good points, except that I thought McDowell was quite good as Soran. I think he's in the upper half of Trek movie villains, and not one-dimensional.

I think the Nexus thing was rushed because they simply didn't have the time in the film at that point to effectively explore it.

 

[horatio83]

I think the entire movie was rushed and thus failed to live up to the high expectations after "All Good Things" which was probably the best series finale so far in Trek.
You could even claim that "All Good Things" had more big-screen potential than GEN which seemed, with its quiet theme of whether Nexus-style happiness and immortality or making a difference in a mortal life matter, to be more suited to the small screen.

 

[F. King Daniel]

The problem with "All Good Things" is that it's too fanwanky and insular to work as a movie. It's not standalone, it's a bookend. Non-TNG nuts wouldn't know/care that it was going back to "Encounter at Farpoint". It doesn't have the casual appeal of "Picard meets Kirk!"

 

[CaptainMatt]

I grew up being a fan of both the classic casted movies and TNG as a television series, as that is what was largely available back then. I also watched reruns of TOS around the same time as Season One of TNG in 1987. But I still found aspects of Generations to be suprising to say the least. Kirk's death was just one of the things I did not get about the movie. Still, considering the films that came later, Generations holds up better as a story than some of the subsequent features.

 

[Allyn Gibson]

From what I have read they didn't blow up the Enterprise D just to make room for the Enterprise E they had a practical motive. They found that the Enterprise D didn't photograph well on the large screen and didn't look good so they needed a design that would look better shot from different angles.

It's true that the Enterprise-D design was fugly from multiple angles. Also, it's true that the larger Enterprise-D model didn't film well; it actually had less surface detail than the smaller model. But neither of those were the reasons for destroying the ship.

Crashing the Enterprise was something Rom Moore had wanted to do in the television series (specifically, in the sixth season finale), but it wasn't something that could be realized on a television budget. When Moore and Braga began pitching ideas to Berman for the film between the sixth and seventh seasons, destroying the Enterprise with a saucer crash was one of the ideas they brought out and Berman accepted.

 

[CaptainMatt]

Berman had a lot of ideas he thought were good at the time, I am sure, but time will prove whether they were good or not. I shudder when I think what Roddenberry would have thought about Star Trek:Generations or the entire Berman reign.

 

[horatio83]

He liked Berman and actually wanted him to take over. Berman has made many mistakes but he was a fine grail-keeper who always asked "what would Gene have thought about this?".

 

[JediKnightButler]

I never thought of it before but where do you suppose Soran went to (in the Nexus)- since he did technically manage to get back there?