Agreed. And while they were both pretty hokey, an energy ribbon where time never passes is, IMO, a lot more interesting than a device that breathes life into a planet (or something along those lines).
Is Generations REALLY That Bad???
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Agreed. And while they were both pretty hokey, an energy ribbon where time never passes is, IMO, a lot more interesting than a device that breathes life into a planet (or something along those lines).
I don't think that the original function of the Genesis device -- namely to essentially terraform a barren planet -- was particularly hokey. However, I think it became hokey when suddenly, magically, the Genesis device became able to go out into a nebula, suck it all up, and form a planet out of it.
That is a bit of a plot hole in the movie. Carol Marcus was so concerned that the Genesis device be set off on a barren planet (why is that hard to find??) yet in the end theY set it off in a nebula and it forms both a sun and a planet!
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Presumably she wanted a control result for the whole planetary terraforming thing, so it had to be absolutely barren to avoid unplanned variables altering the result. Also, since Genesis only created a biosphere, the planet would have to be in the Goldilocks zone to ensure that the biosphere would be sustainable.
Star Trek:Generations is not a bad film. It just made the grand mistake of cramming Kirk into it only to kill him off in an unusual way in the film's climax. Many fans felt this death was unjustified, as evidenced by the sales of the Shatnerverse novels that create their own canon of Kirk's story post-Generations.
As to the disucssion as it was before I joined in, I see nothing hokey about terraforming a planet as an answer to famine and homelessness. It is more staright sci-fi than the idea behind the Nexus which is more like a space fantasy.
As to the disucssion as it was before I joined in, I see nothing hokey about terraforming a planet as an answer to famine and homelessness. It is more staright sci-fi than the idea behind the Nexus which is more like a space fantasy.
GEN was rushed and ended up as mediocre movie. Script-wise it is great because it shows that Kirk and Picard are willing to ignore their personal happiness and do something that matters. They don't care about pleasure, they care about doing something which is larger than themselves. Precisely via giving up his life Kirk does become immortal.
This crazy stuff is only something we humans can do, animals are more rational, the obey the pleasure principle more strictly.
Fans who complain about Kirk's unspectacular death totally miss this point and seem to be impacted by Hollywood so strongly that they consider the spectacle as more important than the actual deed, saving hundreds of millions of lives.
This crazy stuff is only something we humans can do, animals are more rational, the obey the pleasure principle more strictly.
Fans who complain about Kirk's unspectacular death totally miss this point and seem to be impacted by Hollywood so strongly that they consider the spectacle as more important than the actual deed, saving hundreds of millions of lives.
But they saved hundreds of millions of lives in the hardest way possible, by Picard not understanding how time travel works. In the words of Marty McFly "I've got a time machie, I've got all the time in the world!" But instead, Picard chooses to go back to the last possible second with Kirk and conveniently uses him as the ultimate red shirt distraction while he takes out the rocket.
So not only did Kirk die a embarrassing, insulting, awkward death, but it was also unnecessary had the plot been thought through more.
So not only did Kirk die a embarrassing, insulting, awkward death, but it was also unnecessary had the plot been thought through more.
I get the impression that Generations was a result of studio interference. The TV series operated on its own, with the producers and writers doing just fine in guiding the direction of the show. But once it became a feature film, there was a lot of money involved and it was now under the jurisdiction of the movie department. Studio execs often don't trust filmmakers, especially ones from TV. That said, too much of it felt like it was written as a TV episode rather than as a film.
The opening sequence with the Enterprise B was excellent. It had a tone and feel like the previous movies, and really gave Kirk a heroic sendoff. Once the movie jumps into the TNG era, suddenly it felt like a widescreen TV show. I hated the slow-motion shots of Worf and Crusher falling overboard into the ocean (and later slow-mo during the action scenes). I also objected to Picard's brother and nephew dying in a fire. That was unnecessary and cruel, especially considering how they were portrayed in the episode "Family." It gave a very somber and uneasy overtone to the rest of the movie. I actually liked Data's use of the emotion chip because it was the next step in his evolution as a character. The treatment of some of the supporting characters (especially Crusher) was as bad as in the original series films. The rest of the plot was fun, but once we went into the Nexus, things fell apart. It was a concept that wasn't thought-out very well and created far too many questions than it answered. For instance, is Kirk still in the Nexus in some form? Of course, the entire ending fight was totally unnecessary because if Kirk and Picard could go anytime anywhere, they could have come up with a much better plan than to just engage in a fist fight on the side of a mountain with Soran. Once we realize what exactly the Nexus is (or at least what we think it is, since it's still rather vague), it makes Soran's goal nonsensical. And yes, Kirk's actual death doesn't do him justice. The entire third act should have been re-written. In fact, it's hard to believe the same people who wrote this film also wrote the amazing final episode of the series.
Overall, the movie itself is not bad, but it could have been so much better since there are a lot of problems with it. It can be enjoyed if you don't think about the plot holes and how they handled the characters.
The opening sequence with the Enterprise B was excellent. It had a tone and feel like the previous movies, and really gave Kirk a heroic sendoff. Once the movie jumps into the TNG era, suddenly it felt like a widescreen TV show. I hated the slow-motion shots of Worf and Crusher falling overboard into the ocean (and later slow-mo during the action scenes). I also objected to Picard's brother and nephew dying in a fire. That was unnecessary and cruel, especially considering how they were portrayed in the episode "Family." It gave a very somber and uneasy overtone to the rest of the movie. I actually liked Data's use of the emotion chip because it was the next step in his evolution as a character. The treatment of some of the supporting characters (especially Crusher) was as bad as in the original series films. The rest of the plot was fun, but once we went into the Nexus, things fell apart. It was a concept that wasn't thought-out very well and created far too many questions than it answered. For instance, is Kirk still in the Nexus in some form? Of course, the entire ending fight was totally unnecessary because if Kirk and Picard could go anytime anywhere, they could have come up with a much better plan than to just engage in a fist fight on the side of a mountain with Soran. Once we realize what exactly the Nexus is (or at least what we think it is, since it's still rather vague), it makes Soran's goal nonsensical. And yes, Kirk's actual death doesn't do him justice. The entire third act should have been re-written. In fact, it's hard to believe the same people who wrote this film also wrote the amazing final episode of the series.
Overall, the movie itself is not bad, but it could have been so much better since there are a lot of problems with it. It can be enjoyed if you don't think about the plot holes and how they handled the characters.
Yeah GEN really is that bad. But instead of picking on all the things, I'll go very very broad and sweeping in that the movie ends with the takeaway that Kirk died and the Enterprise-D was destroyed. If nothing else at all, that's quite the downer as you finish the movie. Thumbs up on Kirk dying and crashing the Enterprise??
(Yeah I know TWOK is great and that ended with Spock's death. But that was heroic and noble and worthy and all that. Kirk died for... Veridian III? Who?? Enterprise-D destroyed by one old Klingon BoP? Great...)
(Yeah I know TWOK is great and that ended with Spock's death. But that was heroic and noble and worthy and all that. Kirk died for... Veridian III? Who?? Enterprise-D destroyed by one old Klingon BoP? Great...)
I still like the movie despite its problems. I agree with your assessment and just want to add two major problems.
1: Picard could have returned from the Nexis to the Enterprise D when Soran was on the ship. He could have told the crew what happened and ordered Soran thrown in the Brig. End of story and he didn't even need kirk.
2. Kirk in the Nexis was so out of character it was hard to see him as Kirk.
why is the "Picard didn't go far enough back in time" thing such a huge deal for some?
As I see it, it's reasonable that Picard didn't want to interfere too much with past history and past events, so he chose a point that would involve less changes to the original timeline. If he starts thinking "well, I'll go back days earlier and arrest Soran," pretty soon he's thinking "I'll go back earlier than that and save Robert and Rene," then he's thinking "I'll go back seven years ago and save Tasha Yar from Armus."
As I see it, it's reasonable that Picard didn't want to interfere too much with past history and past events, so he chose a point that would involve less changes to the original timeline. If he starts thinking "well, I'll go back days earlier and arrest Soran," pretty soon he's thinking "I'll go back earlier than that and save Robert and Rene," then he's thinking "I'll go back seven years ago and save Tasha Yar from Armus."
^^^ but that's the thing of it. If Picard's main goal is to stop Soran, the BEST and most ASSURED way of success is a day or two before--not five minutes before the weapon launch in the midst of a physical grapple on a cliff. It's so clear, yet what does Picard choose?
And the bit with his family burning to death. That only makes it WORSE. It's not using the Nexus to go back to correct past wrongs and mistakes. The horrible deaths were recent and fresh, as the crisis with Soran. How can he NOT use the Nexus to save them?
Anyone one of us loses family members in a firey death and two days later have this miraculous opportunity to go back and prevent it--what would anyone do? And Picard doesn't even THINK of it?
And the bit with his family burning to death. That only makes it WORSE. It's not using the Nexus to go back to correct past wrongs and mistakes. The horrible deaths were recent and fresh, as the crisis with Soran. How can he NOT use the Nexus to save them?
Anyone one of us loses family members in a firey death and two days later have this miraculous opportunity to go back and prevent it--what would anyone do? And Picard doesn't even THINK of it?
Well, maybe you can't go back in time to just anywhere (No matter what that Whoopi person stated) , but only to certain critical junctures. Maybe he made the best of a limited series of choices.
(I still think it's a dumb plot, but not only because of this.)
(I still think it's a dumb plot, but not only because of this.)
Non of these are plot holes;
- Maybe Sybok.. is poor? If it's easily explainable, then the film doesn't need to explain it.
- TWOK explaines the planetary confusion in the movie, the planet shifted orbit. They thought it was the other planet because it was where the other planet should have been. (I think the other planet exploded or something?)
- We don't know anything about the probe, it's capabilities, or intentions. That was kind of the point.
- The Borg don't travel back in time because their goal is to assimilate technology and knowledge to add to their collective, all of which is destroyed if they wipe out centuries of progress. All they got out of the First Contact scenario is eliminating the federation as a threat. It's easy to see why that isn't their primary course of action.
the irony of that response is that you don't see that all you did was rationalize/explain away plot holes.... which of course, you could also do for Generations if you were so inclined. My point wasn't to dwell on the various plot holes of those other movies, but rather to say that all the Trek movies have them to some degree.
(the planetary confusion thing is still weak. They should notice that a whole planet is missing, and the odds of one planet shifting into almost the exact same orbit as another by chance are incredibly tiny. But TWOK is a good film so this is easily overlooked.)
“Past history” is a matter of perspective. What’s past history to Picard is a possible future to Kirk. Kirk could have returned to the Ent-B to nip the problem in the bud, and from his perspective that wouldn’t interfere with history. The decision to go to Veridian III minutes before Soran’s missile launch might make sense from Picard’s perspective, but from Kirk’s it doesn’t.
My fanwank (which is not much of a stretch at all):
In Space Seed, Khan and are people were dropped off on Ceti Alpha V, the fifth of five planets that have been charted in the system. Six months later, a previously uncharted planet, which Khan naturally calls Ceti Alpha VI, explodes, shifting the orbit of Ceti Alpha V.
15 years later, the Reliant discovers what appears to them to be a previously uncharted planet. They call it Ceti Alpha VI, and set out to determine whether this newly discovered planet is suitable for Genesis.
They don’t notice that Ceti Alpha V is missing because nobody’s looking for it. Alternatively, whoever is looking for it finds the debris of the exploded planet and assumes it’s all that remains of Ceti Alpha V. If the latter, Chekov is probably unaware of Ceti Alpha V’s apparent destruction because it isn’t relevant to his duties.
It’s not that Ceti Alpha V “shifted into the exact same orbit” as Ceti Alpha VI. The confusion occurs because Reliant has no prior knowledge of where Ceti Alpha VI’s orbit is supposed to be.
As a science-fiction concept, fine. However, it was too obvious to the audience that the Nexus was only invented because the producers wanted an excuse to stick Captain Kirk into a Next Generation production.
The problem with GEN was that the entire premise was flawed. There's nothing about the conflict that would require interaction with the nexus to resolve, and there's absolutely no reason that Kirk need to be there at all.
This goes way beyond "plot holes" and into "massive systematic total plot failure". I suspect they crashed-landed the Enterprise only to cover up how weak the the rest of the drama was. But even in that scene, the crappy CGI does not hold up.
All the more reason why Generations is not well-liked by many. Granted it had Malcolm McDowell playing a tragic character/villain and the killing off of the Duras Sisters, but the rest of the film after the Enterprise-B segment went downhill. The death of James T. Kirk was less than heroic. It was less than graceful.
I don't know what the writers were thinking when they wrote this half-and-half film, but one thing is for certain. They wrote a film that wasn't all that great, period.
And to think that both Insurrection and Nemesis were bad!
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