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Is femininity a villain in TOS?

This is a catch-22. If Trek had never depicted women as being the villain, the criticism would be that TOS was sexist because it never depicted women as anything but compliant and cooperative ("Trek could never depict women as being anything but sugar, and spice, and everything nice. If the writers could have written them as actual humans, they would have been the villain occasionally, but women were denied the full range of human character on this show.").

What worked against Lenore was that she her father was mass murderer who had escaped justice. The script could have just as well featured a crazy son protecting his fugitive mother and the psychology would still work out (e.g., child touched by the sins of the parent).

Nothing worked against T'Pau. She was not a villain. Like Kirk said, she was all of Vulcan represented in one package. He didn't back down from the fight because she was a woman, but because she was a powerful figure representing her race. And she was powerful enough to crack the whip and get Starfleet command to allow the Enterprise a delay (something which Kirk could NOT achieve - how's that for female power?).

T'Pring is pretty tough too. She intelligently plays Spock against Kirk to get what she wants. Spock is forced to concede that her plan was logical. She is not a weak blubbering woman being tossed about by males. Remember Stonn, Spock's rival? He gets played too. He wanted to fight Stonn, but T'Pring has her own plan. And when Stonn objects to T'Pau about T'Prings selection of Kirk as champion, this powerful woman (T'Pau) warns him to STFU and observe the ceremony.

As for Nona wanting to be on the winning side, how many times have we seen Starfleet males wanting to be on the winning side? Remember the marooned Starfleet man who created a Nazi planet because it was "efficient"? Remember the Star Fleet captain who armed a side to win a war to capture a fountain of youth (Omega Glory).

As for Dr. Jones, what is so distinctly female about not wanting to share power or glory?

I am not saying that Trek wasn't sexist, because there is plenty of sexism in TOS. I am, however, against the lazy citation of alleged female villains of the week as proof of the variety - woman depicted as villain = proof that women are bad.

Wow, no. This isn't right at all. The evidence has already been shown regarding how women were portrayed in the original series. This was based on their gender, not on their characters. Due to their gender, they were automatically weak, and submissive. This was a defining stereotype of women back in the 50s and 60s. In an attempt to levy the same charge against men, you've missed the whole point; which is that women were pigeon-holed into these roles because they were expected to behave that way; as the woman who was forever incomplete and directionless without a male authority to guide her.

A man could be smart, stupid, good, evil, but he was still a man, and his word was still superior to that of a woman, regardless of her position.

A woman could be smart, stupid, good, evil, but she was still a woman, given to feminine ways, and there was always a smarter, more "capable" man to help the women ease her confusion in those times of trouble.

It's all over 1950s and 1960s television. Your attempt to compare it with male roles of that era just doesn't work, as men were not second class citizens at any point in recent history, whereas women were, and in some cases still are.
 
The evidence has already been shown regarding how women were portrayed in the original series.

Evidence doesn't interpret itself. What I object to is the interpretation.

This was based on their gender, not on their characters.

No, women were depicted both in terms of our general folk psychological interpretations of human motivations (i.e., our everyday beliefs about why humans do what they do) AND in terms of our more specific cultural beliefs about women.

There are critiques of human character in TOS (e.g., in Star Trek it is shown again and again that power corrupts humans, that they need to be limited in power relative to other humans), of masculinity (e.g., Mudd's Women where Eve chide's Childress for not wanting a companion but an object - the critique itself is sexist, but it is still a critique of male thinking), and of femininity.

The mistake is to interpret a character who is simply displaying a universal human motivation (e.g., jealously, revenge, mercy, justice-seeking) and interpreting this as evidence of gender roles in the 1960s simply because the behavior was displayed by a female.

Again, there is plenty of sexism in TOS, but the analysis here (i.e., the interpretation) leaves something to be desired.

Due to their gender, they were automatically weak, and submissive.

So who did T'Pau submit to? Was T'Pring weak and submissive? No, they both rocked. These are example you cite, but they show strong and intelligent women.

Is there sexism in "Amok Time"?
Yes, but you have to know where to look for it. It is not the characters in this episode who are "weak women" (far from it!), but rather we see patriarchy written into the Vulcan law (i.e., T'Pau reminds T'Pring that she will become the property of the victor).

Edith Keeler wasn't weak. Indeed, Edith was a threat to human history because she would lead an effective pacifism movement (the right idea at the wrong time). Kirk and Spock had to contrive to make sure that she was killed!

If women were just automatically weak and submissive on TOS we wouldn't have the above examples of strong women.

This was a defining stereotype of women back in the 50s and 60s. In an attempt to levy the same charge against men, you've missed the whole point; which is that women were pigeon-holed into these roles because they were expected to behave that way; as the woman who was forever incomplete and directionless without a male authority to guide her.

AGAIN, I agree that there is sexism on TOS. I agree that TOS reflects the era in which it was made.

What I object to is the lazy interpretation which leads to seeing TOS as much more sexist than it was, and causes us to miss aspects of TOS that were actually forward thinking (relative to the time) about gender.
 
These aren't lazy interpretations, and your push to include men in this comparison is ridiculous. It's like when someone talks about feminism, and some guy has to say "men are discriminated against, too!" Well no shit, of course they can be, but the discrimination against women is institutional. It was then, it is now, and the few women back then that made solid character roles without kowtowing to the menfolk were few and far between.
 
These aren't lazy interpretations

At the point that you globally say that women were automatically depicted as submissive in discussing two examples where the women clearly were not submissive (i.e., T'Pau and T'Pring), I'd say that's pretty lazy.

and your push to include men in this comparison is ridiculous. It's like when someone talks about feminism, and some guy has to say "men are discriminated against, too!" Well no shit, of course they can be, but the discrimination against women is institutional.

There is institutional discrimination against males too. Men, for example, have been forced into military service during times of war. Even today, only males have to sign up for selective service.

Even so, your comparison (i.e., this is like when...) is faulty. Why? 1. I have not claimed that TOS equally discriminated against men. 2. I have conceded that TOS was sexist. 3. My objection is centered on the reasoning of the argument, and not the conclusion.
 
^^ I think I see your point(s). But though I may be wrong, I believe that the depiction of villainous female characters was rather in a context like "See, they are not doing better than men and giving them equal rights will not improve the situation."

Of course, we had active women like Dr. Helen Noel one episode ("Dagger of the Mind") but two episodes later Miss Mears is, again, a rather stereotypical example ("I don't want to die up here").

Bob
 
If what I'm seeing in Google results is correct, "Savage Syndrome" was co-authored by Margaret Armen ("The Paradise Syndrome"). So it wasn't just men writing women badly.
Who said it was just men?

I'd say the script is just trying to be sexy. Space: 1999 did a very similar concept, in which the Alphans became non-verbal cave people. And I seem to recall a violent sexual rivalry between the female leads.
You can rationalize a lot of stereotypical female behavior as having them be "sexy". I mean, really, "claws"? Ugh. Inexcusable even for 1978.
 
TOS did have a lot of casual sexism, but for it's time, it portrayed women much better then 90% of the shows of those days.
 
TOS did have a lot of casual sexism, but for it's time, it portrayed women much better then 90% of the shows of those days.

I've seen this said before, but actually...I'm not sure that it's true. Of course, it's easy to make definitive statements like this (and to refute them) because the only way to know for sure would be to watch thousands of hours of TV.

(Where's Guy Gardener when you need him?)
 
These aren't lazy interpretations

At the point that you globally say that women were automatically depicted as submissive in discussing two examples where the women clearly were not submissive (i.e., T'Pau and T'Pring), I'd say that's pretty lazy.

and your push to include men in this comparison is ridiculous. It's like when someone talks about feminism, and some guy has to say "men are discriminated against, too!" Well no shit, of course they can be, but the discrimination against women is institutional.

There is institutional discrimination against males too. Men, for example, have been forced into military service during times of war. Even today, only males have to sign up for selective service.

Even so, your comparison (i.e., this is like when...) is faulty. Why? 1. I have not claimed that TOS equally discriminated against men. 2. I have conceded that TOS was sexist. 3. My objection is centered on the reasoning of the argument, and not the conclusion.

No, and there's no point in arguing this with you. If you can ignore the institutional sexism in 1950s and 1960s TV, then anything I say is going to be ignored.
 
No, and there's no point in arguing this with you. If you can ignore the institutional sexism in 1950s and 1960s TV, then anything I say is going to be ignored.

I have never denied that there was sexism during this time period. I have not denied the link between institutional power and sexism. I have agreed that TOS was sexist.

My objection is that accusations of sexism in TOS must be be justified against alternate hypotheses (e.g., it just happened to be a female character, or the motivation was not distinctly female, but written in terms of general human psychology).

That a woman happens to be an antagonist in a given episode doesn't really prove much. It is too loose to claim that because a woman was depicted as a villain that, therefore, feminity itself was made the villain in the episode.
 
I agree you have to distinguish characters who just happen to be women for the purposes of the plot and those whose femininity prevented them from engaging with the plot. T'Pau and T'Pring should definitely not be viewed as poor portrayals of women. And one we almost forgot: Amanda - she was a cracking character.
 
Our own KRAD might disagree with that assessment of Amanda.

Bear with me for this digression — I’ll try to be brief. Yes, “Journey to Babel” is an important episode because it gave us Spock’s parents, as well as Andorians and Tellarites, not to mention McCoy getting the last word. But it’s also dumb from the ground up and dumb from the roof on down the other side. We’ll leave aside that the matriarchal society we saw in “Amok Time” has apparently been abandoned for a female-subservient marriage that looks like something out of 1950s middle America. Instead, let’s focus on Spock’s refusal to give up command in order to help transfuse his father, which Amanda says is because of his Vulcan insistence on doing his duty to the exclusion of all else, never mind the fact that it has nothing to do with his being Vulcan, and everything to do with him being a commander in Starfleet. To make matters worse, being in charge is so important that Spock can afford to waste tons of time arguing with his mother in his quarters about the fact that he can’t spare the time for the transfusion (yet he can spare time to argue with his mother, y’know, a lot).

Amanda is, as portrayed in “Journey to Babel,” an awful character, a tiresomely submissive housewife with no identity beyond that of her husband. (Later fanfic and tie-in fiction would create a wonderfully complex backstory for her and make her into a formidable presence, but the actual character portrayed by Jane Wyatt in “Journey to Babel,” “Yesteryear,” and Star Trek IV: The Voyage Home is a cipher.)
 
Traditional masculinity is, arguably, also vilified on TOS.

Note, for example, the admiration that Kirk, McCoy, and Scotty express for the "Napoleons" of the eugenics wars (the manly men who conquered the world). There is an efficacy and a will in Khan, that they cannot help but admire. Khan lived in an interesting time, but as civilized space men, they could never so boldly grasp the nettle as these manly men did.

In Abraham Lincoln's Lyceum Address, a similar sort of admiration/fear can be seen. Lincoln had the feeling that all the interesting American history had passed him by as a youth. The Founding Fathers were men who lived at a time when bold action was required to bring forth a Republic. Lincoln, born a generation too late, could never be part of this manly pantheon. The time for bold leading men was over and the time for domesticated democratic men was at hand. For Lincoln, the equivalent of a Khan was Napoleon Bonaparte - it was precisely the sort of bold man of genius who could seize a nation that democracy needed to guard itself against:

Through that period [the formation of the American nation], it was felt by all, to be an undecided experiment; now, it is understood to be a successful one.--Then, all that sought celebrity and fame, and distinction, expected to find them in the success of that experiment. Their all was staked upon it:-- their destiny was inseparably linked with it. Their ambition aspired to display before an admiring world, a practical demonstration of the truth of a proposition, which had hitherto been considered, at best no better, than problematical; namely, the capability of a people to govern themselves. If they succeeded, they were to be immortalized; their names were to be transferred to counties and cities, and rivers and mountains; and to be revered and sung, and toasted through all time. If they failed, they were to be called knaves and fools, and fanatics for a fleeting hour; then to sink and be forgotten. They succeeded. The experiment is successful; and thousands have won their deathless names in making it so. But the game is caught; and I believe it is true, that with the catching, end the pleasures of the chase. This field of glory is harvested, and the crop is already appropriated.

Lincoln tells us above that the manly men who made our nation succeeded. Lincoln continues to warn his audience that it is precisely these sort of men who would pose a threat to America.

But new reapers will arise, and they, too, will seek a field. It is to deny, what the history of the world tells us is true, to suppose that men of ambition and talents will not continue to spring up amongst us. And, when they do, they will as naturally seek the gratification of their ruling passion, as others have so done before them. The question then, is, can that gratification be found in supporting and maintaining an edifice that has been erected by others? Most certainly it cannot. Many great and good men sufficiently qualified for any task they should undertake, may ever be found, whose ambition would inspire to nothing beyond a seat in Congress, a gubernatorial or a presidential chair; but such belong not to the family of the lion, or the tribe of the eagle.

Manly men - those of the tribe of predator, the lion or eagle, we are told, would never settle for a mere share of power in a democracy. Great men of genius, the apotheosis of manly virtue, would rather be rulers.

What! think you these places would satisfy an Alexander, a Caesar, or a Napoleon?--Never! Towering genius distains a beaten path. It seeks regions hitherto unexplored.--It sees no distinction in adding story to story, upon the monuments of fame, erected to the memory of others.. It denies that it is glory enough to serve under any chief. It scorns to tread in the footsteps of any predecessor, however illustrious. It thirsts and burns for distinction; and, if possible, it will have it, whether at the expense of emancipating slaves, or enslaving freemen.

In short, from Lincoln's point of view, the time of the superman was now properly over and the meek should inherit the apparatus of democracy, carefully guarding against the next Napoleon who would tear down the existing world to make his mark.

Kirk has heard all he needs to hear from Khan when Khan remarks that his people are superior and will "do well in your century." Khan is one who would disrupt meek equality of civil government and return to the primal male pattern of the lion and the eagle. Kirk's solution is to contain Khan in a world that his supermen can set about taming. Khan can have his ambition. Kirk can keep the rest of the universe safe from it.

The sense that we get in Star Trek is that manly men are outmoded. They need to be neutered, domesticated, even feminized in some way to prevent them from being destructive. Recall all the times Kirk refered to humans being a killer species and having savage impulses. TOS men are like housecats who can, from a distance, admire the freedom of the feral cat to hunt and stalk and mate at will.

In short, masculinity is itself dangerous and is something which needs to be controlled, conditioned against, and possibly even changed for humans to evolve beyond being savages.
 
Traditional masculinity is, arguably, also vilified on TOS.

Note, for example, the admiration that Kirk, McCoy, and Scotty express for the "Napoleons" of the eugenics wars (the manly men who conquered the world). There is an efficacy and a will in Khan, that they cannot help but admire. Khan lived in an interesting time, but as civilized space men, they could never so boldly grasp the nettle as these manly men did.

In Abraham Lincoln's Lyceum Address, a similar sort of admiration/fear can be seen. Lincoln had the feeling that all the interesting American history had passed him by as a youth. The Founding Fathers were men who lived at a time when bold action was required to bring forth a Republic. Lincoln, born a generation too late, could never be part of this manly pantheon. The time for bold leading men was over and the time for domesticated democratic men was at hand. For Lincoln, the equivalent of a Khan was Napoleon Bonaparte - it was precisely the sort of bold man of genius who could seize a nation that democracy needed to guard itself against:

Through that period [the formation of the American nation], it was felt by all, to be an undecided experiment; now, it is understood to be a successful one.--Then, all that sought celebrity and fame, and distinction, expected to find them in the success of that experiment. Their all was staked upon it:-- their destiny was inseparably linked with it. Their ambition aspired to display before an admiring world, a practical demonstration of the truth of a proposition, which had hitherto been considered, at best no better, than problematical; namely, the capability of a people to govern themselves. If they succeeded, they were to be immortalized; their names were to be transferred to counties and cities, and rivers and mountains; and to be revered and sung, and toasted through all time. If they failed, they were to be called knaves and fools, and fanatics for a fleeting hour; then to sink and be forgotten. They succeeded. The experiment is successful; and thousands have won their deathless names in making it so. But the game is caught; and I believe it is true, that with the catching, end the pleasures of the chase. This field of glory is harvested, and the crop is already appropriated.

Lincoln tells us above that the manly men who made our nation succeeded. Lincoln continues to warn his audience that it is precisely these sort of men who would pose a threat to America.

But new reapers will arise, and they, too, will seek a field. It is to deny, what the history of the world tells us is true, to suppose that men of ambition and talents will not continue to spring up amongst us. And, when they do, they will as naturally seek the gratification of their ruling passion, as others have so done before them. The question then, is, can that gratification be found in supporting and maintaining an edifice that has been erected by others? Most certainly it cannot. Many great and good men sufficiently qualified for any task they should undertake, may ever be found, whose ambition would inspire to nothing beyond a seat in Congress, a gubernatorial or a presidential chair; but such belong not to the family of the lion, or the tribe of the eagle.

Manly men - those of the tribe of predator, the lion or eagle, we are told, would never settle for a mere share of power in a democracy. Great men of genius, the apotheosis of manly virtue, would rather be rulers.

What! think you these places would satisfy an Alexander, a Caesar, or a Napoleon?--Never! Towering genius distains a beaten path. It seeks regions hitherto unexplored.--It sees no distinction in adding story to story, upon the monuments of fame, erected to the memory of others.. It denies that it is glory enough to serve under any chief. It scorns to tread in the footsteps of any predecessor, however illustrious. It thirsts and burns for distinction; and, if possible, it will have it, whether at the expense of emancipating slaves, or enslaving freemen.

In short, from Lincoln's point of view, the time of the superman was now properly over and the meek should inherit the apparatus of democracy, carefully guarding against the next Napoleon who would tear down the existing world to make his mark.

Kirk has heard all he needs to hear from Khan when Khan remarks that his people are superior and will "do well in your century." Khan is one who would disrupt meek equality of civil government and return to the primal male pattern of the lion and the eagle. Kirk's solution is to contain Khan in a world that his supermen can set about taming. Khan can have his ambition. Kirk can keep the rest of the universe safe from it.

The sense that we get in Star Trek is that manly men are outmoded. They need to be neutered, domesticated, even feminized in some way to prevent them from being destructive. Recall all the times Kirk refered to humans being a killer species and having savage impulses. TOS men are like housecats who can, from a distance, admire the freedom of the feral cat to hunt and stalk and mate at will.

In short, masculinity is itself dangerous and is something which needs to be controlled, conditioned against, and possibly even changed for humans to evolve beyond being savages.

kwu0.jpg


You're distorting the issue.
You're making it about something which it is not.
 
T'Pring and T'Pau were pretty cool.
T'Pring may not have been submissive, but she definitely was a bitch. T'Pau was a politician. We have no idea about her personal life - who she was married to (or if she was married at all), what her home life was like...

And even though I 'hate' T'Pring she wasn't the stereotypical weak woman. She wanted to get out of a forced marriage. I'm gritty my teeth as I write this but if a girl nowadays ran away from a forced marriage we'd help her. I know it wasn't that simple though. (How could anyone not want Spock. LOL.)
I don't blame T'Pring for wanting out of an arranged marriage. What I object to is how she did it.

There was Agent 99...
Did she ever have a real name?

Same with Samanatha in Bewitched. Just a 'housewife' submitting to the whims of her husband.
Samantha was never submissive because she had to be. She catered to Darren's preferences because she loved him. If she really objected to something, one twitch of her nose would easily have solved the problem - and if that didn't work, Endora would have come to her aid. Endora was never submissive.

Edith Keeler wasn't weak. Indeed, Edith was a threat to human history because she would lead an effective pacifism movement (the right idea at the wrong time). Kirk and Spock had to contrive to make sure that she was killed!
Edith Keeler is the best example of a strong woman in TOS. She did what she did for her reasons, and didn't care what any of the men thought.

Not even Uhura was as strong as Edith. Edith never whined to anybody that "I'm frightened."

Of course, we had active women like Dr. Helen Noel one episode ("Dagger of the Mind") but two episodes later Miss Mears is, again, a rather stereotypical example ("I don't want to die up here").

Bob
I'm pretty sure none of them wanted "to die up here."
 
Edith Keeler is the best example of a strong woman in TOS. She did what she did for her reasons, and didn't care what any of the men thought.

Not even Uhura was as strong as Edith. Edith never whined to anybody that "I'm frightened."

Excellent point, and it showed that female characters like Edith Keeler were the exception, not the rule. Imagine Spock quailing in front of Kirk, saying, "Captain, I'm frightened." Wouldn't have happened. Uhura doing it was okay, because she was expected to show the fear and emotion. It had to be a submissive woman trembling in fear, and the menfolk being strong and protective.
 
While there's no denying that TOS is plagued by some casual 60's-era sexism, the extreme instances cited in the OP aren't representative of every female character. Let us please not judge every female crew member by the likes of Marla McGivers--who was an odd duck to say the least, and hardly the pride of Starfleet! :)

And Lord knows TOS is full of emotionally unstable characters, male and female.

Indeed, while we're talking about Dr. Jones in "Is There in Truth No Beauty?," please note that it's her male associate, Lawrence Marvick, who is driven to homicidal mania by jealousy and unrequited love, not Dr. Jones, who is cool and professional by comparison.

And if Marla betrays the ship for a man in "Space Seed," Crewman Compton switches sides for a woman in "Blink of an Eye."
 
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