Is Enterprise Canon?

[muzzleflash]

That's illogical. Bumpy heads could never be reasoned to effect the EXISTENCE of and entire series unless that series was one of all Klingons.

Why? Why does bumpy heads have no affect the existence of an entire series, but the mention of the number of Enterprises does? Is it because prior to Enterprise, the TOS Enterprise was established to be the first Enterprise? Didn't we already establish in this thread that prior references to the number of Enterprise could have easily not included the NX-01 enterprise?

 

[Ensign_Redshirt]

i hate the ferengi episode (with the only worth is the little bit of humor in it) though the federation actually knew of the ferengi before official first contact.
really deep space nine presents issues with this too.

Except that in early TNG it's reversed: They know that a race called "Ferengi" exists, but they don't know how they look like. In Enterprise's "Ascquisition", they don't learn the name of the race, but they know how Ferengi look like now. So one thing hasn't much to do with the other.

Anyway, I was getting at the (un)likelihood that someone bumps into a race and then there's no contact whatsoever with that race for more than two centuries. Where were they hiding? I suppose there are some fanwank theories to explain that too. I prefer to have potential plot holes explained away on screen though, like with the Borg in "Regeneration".

but despite some other short comings the thing with stigma isnt that most vulcans can meld but rather most dont know if they can because for some reason it has fallen into disfavor.

However, Stigma's take on the subject was indeed that only a minority of Vulcans is able to mind-meld and without Season 4's Vulcan trilogy this retcon would have remained Canon. Fortunately, they did straighten it out then.

Again, this would have been mostly a plausibility issue. Statistically, it would have been a rather interesting coincidence that most Vulcans we had seen so far on Star Trek would have been members of a tiny minority (Spock, Sarek, one of the Kolinahr priests in TMP, T'Lar, Sakonna, Tuvok, Vorik). That's like making 90% of all human main characters on Star Trek gay. Of course, if you make 90% of all human characters gay, it would still be Canon though.

 

[I am not Spock]

It was on screen, it was produced. It's canon. As is every other Star Trek movie and TV series (including TAS)

I think some are confusing 'canon' with 'continuity'. We talk about the Shakespearian canon, or the Bible canon. As in, anything within a body of work, regardless of individual quality.

Was ENT completely consistent with the rest of the Trek series and movies? No, but then, Trek has never been particularly consistent with its continuity. When I got over the idea of this all encompassing 100% accurate canon, I started enjoying Trek a lot more. Just take it for what it is. A piece of fun entertainment.

 

[Tiberius]

Whether minor or major the contradictions exist.
What others complained about isn't really the point of the thread. That being the case I understand what you're trying to say but it's a round-a-about irrelevancy.

Given that all series of trek are guilty of this, I don't understand why you are picking on poor Enterprise.

NOTED: And accepted.
However we know registries are progressive. Star Fleet only issues retro registries to honor past registries and names. The Dauntless is presented as a new Star Fleet Starship...and experimental vessel.

You note and accept my point, then you completely disregard it?

According to the information you've used the Dauntless in Voyager should have been named NX-80100, which is in keeping with the progressive use of registries....AND in keeping with the experimental designation for a new class.

Actually, since you don't know how the Federation decides on the registry numbers, you can't say this for sure.

Logically it is appropriate to conclude that the ship is being presented as an experimental ship which is also paying homage to a former ship which is further evidence by the use of the Alphanumeric.

I do not see how this is logical.

All we can logically conclude is that the NX represents an experimental vessel. There's no reason to conclude that this is in any way connected to a 200 year old vessel.

Strawman: I never made the arguement that the show loses it's status as canon because of the error.

We're in a discussion about whether Enterprise is Canon. Sorry for thinking your arguments about all the violations of continuity you see in Enterprise were in favour of Enterprise being canon.

AT this point is a precedent not a mistake.
ENTERPRISE would be the mistake.

At this point what is a precedent not a mistake? Proofread please.

Possibly.
Scott does say "My old ship." at the out set, though.
But speculation at this point could be biased.

I could reason through speculation that the computer knew based from the initial statement that Scott served in Star Fleet but that reasoning could go both ways to isolate away the NX-01.

Or maybe the computer actually thought abnout it and when he said that he wanted to see "my old ship", which he specified was the "Enterprise", the computer figured he had once served on a ship named the Enterprise. And then it figured that only the 1701 Enterprises still had crew who were still alive.

So the computer basically though, "Everyone who ever served on NX-01 is now dead, and since I'm fairly certain there are no zombies walkin g the corridors, this man obviously didn't serve on NX-01." And thus the computer didn't include it, reasonably deciding to only include the ships that still had surviving crew members.

Do you see anything implausible there?

It's the issue of if a series should exist according to canon or not. That would indicate a major indicator, the biggest in fact that there is.

I could make the same argument about lots of things in Trek. Why do you only apply this logic to Entperise?

And how do you know that the error is in Enterprise, not the other series? Please don't tell me that you're going by what said it first.

I mean, by that logic, wouldn't you dismiss Dax from DS9? After all, a major plot point of "The Host" was that the Federation hadn't really heard about the Trill.

Yes the computer said Federation.
But Scotty didn't say Federation.
The computer made an assumption.
That assumption was not in favor of the NX-01.
That tells me more than entertaining your line of questioning.

I;ve gone over this.

It refers back to the writers automatically because it is linearly inexplicable in the fiction.

The computer referred to Federation ships, and you seem to think it is am mistake that it didn't refer to NX-01. Why?!?!

Simple, it's not the point of the thread.
Secondly, nothing in TOS questions whether Voyager as a series should exist.
I would think that would be obvious.

How about in Star Trek 5 when they make a journey to the center of the galaxy in just a few hours. Days at most. If a Connie could do it so quick, why does a ship almost a century more advanced take the best part of a century?

Elaborate upon your request.

You told Withers that the entire series of Enterprise doesn't fit. So if I name something from Enterprise (and I won't cheat and use something minor), I'm sure you'd be able to tell me how that thing is inconsistant with the other series.

For example, in what way is the Xindi attack inconsistant with any part of any of the other series? What about the Klingon version of the Augment virus thingy? If anything, that REMOVES an inconsistancy between ToS and everything else!

Yes that was definitely an error.
"There was no Enterprise in Star Fleet except one...NCC 1701 and it's name sake ships that share the same registry modified by alphanumeric.

How do you know that every stafleet vessel named Enterprise was registered as NCC 1701 with a letter? Please provide evidence for your claim that there were no other registries ever used on a ship named Enterprise.

As I explained above the ship is Star Fleet.
The Federation doesn't have a registry system separate from Star Fleet.

You've committed a misnomer.

Please cite evidence that the registry system used on NX-01 is the same as used on NCC-1701.

I mean, in NX-01, the letters represent the class of ship. Is NCC-1701 an NCC class ship? No? Then it's a different registry system!

The full line is available in the thread of this sub forum named "2166 According to Spock"

I'm not going to go searching for things. You want to use a line as evidence, you'd better quote that line in the discussion where you want to use it as evidence. I won't do your homework for you.

Anything can be believable with the appropriate explanation.

Didn't I hear this in the Simpsons? "Facts can be used to prove anything that's even remotely true!"

This isn't about believable, it's about consistency of canon which Enterprise is not as a series.

And the other shows are?

If you find the subject unpleasant to listen to you are under no obligation to continue to execute your defense of the series to me.

Non sequiter. I am saying that you are citing as your evidence the differences in registry system, and the fact that Enterprise doesn't meet the definition of the kind of space vessels provided as a passaway line.

You claimed that this was much more than a handful of evidence for your position. It is not more than a handful.

I have no idea how you got that I found it unpleasant...

It means I acknowledge the scene as an error in SFX.
In the case of a ship that never was supposed to be, I regard the entire series as an error of the Producers of Star Trek. That would be the logical equivalence.

it seems that you are interpreting the ionconsistancies in Enterprise as bigger than those in the other shows in order to say that the inconsistancies in enterprise are bigger than in the other shows and therefore enterprise is wrong.

Circular logic.

This is a foregone conclusion.
Once again. The ship is named Enterprise, Precedent of Canon has always omitted the NX-01, If it was not in canon then it did not exist and frequently there is little room for interpreting the inclusion of the ship. And the Registry of the ship "apparently" already belonged to another ship.

In other words, you are saying, "None of the other shows ever mentioned it, so it doesn't exist."

And will you get over the whole registry thing? Unless you can show that the registry system used on NX-01 is the same as that used on NCC-1701, you don't have a point.

Further, this "Dauntless" that existed before with no one objects to or mentions further implies that is was a non consequential vessel in the span of history...forgettable. That is anything but what the Enterprise is as the NX-01

A graphic on a fake ship that appears in one episode is bigger evidence to you than four seasons' worth of episodes?

They were pivotal in Temperal Cold War,

How is this inconsistant?

made first contact with the Romulans, Klingons,

Again, how is this inconsistant?

and Borg

actually, that would be Lily Sloan. She was the earliest born person to have contact with them. In any case, the events of regeneration follow on logically from FC, and I don't see that they violate canon. There's really no reason why a starfleet captain would know information that was classified top secret two centuries before.

saved Earth from the Xindi Deathstar,

And how is this inconsistant?

had the first Vulcan in Star Fleet

And how is this inconsistant?

who gave birth to the first Vulcan human hybrid,

I'm sorry, in which episode did T'Pol get pregnant with trip's child?

and it's Captain helped inaugurate the United Federation of Planets.

Once again, how is this inconsistant?

Suspension of belief began long before the series started but belief unless earnest can't hope to cover over all these mistakes by the producers.
Their intention was obviously to set aside and ignore TOS.

TNG did that when they said Romulans hated Klingons. In Enterprise Incident, didn't the Romulans use Klingon-designed ships? Kinda suggests an alliance, yes?

Despite your implicitness, these are not minor details such as head ridges and middle names that are rarely used. It is an entire series that contradicts the history laid out but the original series.

or perhaps it is a few references to the number of ships named Enterprise that contradict an entire series.

Both TNG, DS9 and VOY portrayed TOS accurately without fear of making itself illegitimate.

You would have preferred it if Enterprise was even more primitive than NCC-1701? So no touch screens (despite the fact they exist today - you think they;d forget that technology?) Use lasers, despite the fact that audiences today wouldn't believe that lasers would act like that for a moment?

Rather than accept it's roots, Enterprise cast them aside. Is there really a problem with this? Well other than alienating the FANdom and fueling discussion such as this, no. But it was a sign of the laziness of the creators and producers behind the show, revealing they apparently only wanted to dress up the past in the garb of the 23rd century instead of blazing a new path.

What part of classic trek (apart from your repeated mentions of the registry system and the lines from Balance of terror) does Enterprise cast aside?

 

[Matt4511]

I agree that all accepted definitions of canon would confirm that Enterprise is, indeed, canon.

In my own mind, however, I pretend it doesn't exist and never happened. The following thoughts are not an attempt to "prove" myself right or convince others, just to explain why I myself, despite watching Enterprise regularly, chose to strike it from the Matt Canon.

Frankly, the show sucked.

I was so excited for it when I heard it was coming. I'd wanted to see a prequel for a while and have been a fan of Bakula going back to the QL days. It was very exciting for me when it premiered, I had a small party for other friends. We liked Broken Bow. Had some quibbles but liked it.

But as the show went on, I began to develop serious reservations with it, on two fronts:

1. The portrayal of the 22nd Century to me seemed, I dunno, just...out of whack. Yes, I know that means I'm one of the thin-skinned stubborn Trekkies who had a hissy fit when ENT didn't line up with my own conception of fanon. But I don't think that's fair, really. Like any devoted Trekkie I've developed a remarkable ability to gloss over the little minor issues that crop up and shrug them off. That's easy, because the issues are usually small enough to be inconsequential. But with Enterprise, the issues were, to me, quite serious.

I don't care about the FACTS of canon, all the little bits of info that are thrown about in this debate — how many ships named Enterprise, NX-01 being Dauntless, bla bla bla. I can overlook those, as stated above. But what killed it for me was that I just couldn't see how this series would flow into TOS, which I love.

I think that ENT could have set up the TOS era movies, in two or three decades. From the end of Enterprise to, the motion picture, could easily be just a generation. That didn't work for me. ENT was, really, a TNG-DS9-Voyager prequel.

In rapid fire, here are some of the reasons I feel that way, but I'm just raising the points without explanation — Earth is a very minor player, ships are too fast, space is too crowded, tech is too advanced, there's no real sense of space travel being new, no wonder to it all. It's just TNG with different costumes.

The prequel didn't live up to its own inherent premise, that's why I pretend it never happened.

2. It just wasn't a good TV show. It was very stale, had some horribly clunky acting, and some very weak episodes. All the objections I have to it being part of my canon, above, I could hvae overlooked if the show had blown me away. And in a way, it did. But by how bad it was.

Look, I know there's a lot of devoted fans here, so as a peace offering, I'll point out that...ummm...I think you're all terrific people. But the show, to me, was lousy. TV has changed a lot since TNG premiered, but Enterprise hadn't. The dialogue was lousy, the pacing stilted, the entire feel of the show was very stale and very safe.

Like a lot of ENT's detractors, I did think that season 4 really picked things up a lot, but by then it was damage control more than plot advacenment. Just too late for me.

Here's a small reflective example of why, in my opinion, the show didn't work. At the end of Season Two the writers knew they needed to shake things up, had to try something new, had to really blow people away in order to save the series. So they sat down in a room and banged their heads together until they came up with this:

A mysterious new race threatens to destroy humanity with a massive super-weapon and only the crew of the Enterprise can stop them!

Oh, please.

I really wanted to like Enterprise. I really wanted to stick with it and be won over. And it did have some great moments and great episodes. Individual parts of the series held up great. But as a whole, the series left me with a foul taste in my mouth, that I prefer to forget about.

If I were ever to become franchise runner (a pretty fucking big if, but hypothetically) I would write a letter to all the cast and production crew of the series, tell them that I really respected their hard work and best efforts, but apologize for having to declare it a dream or an alternate timeline or a fantasy or whatever while I set about enacting my own vision. I'm sure such a step would hurt a lot of feelings amongst the dedicated professionals who did their best, and would probably be me sentenced to death in absentia on this forum, but had I that power, I'd do so and pursue my own vision. Just sayin'.

 

[Noname Given]

The middle name that never existed or a ship that never existed?
It's an obvious fore gone conclusion.

If there were 25 years of Trek that said his middle name was R and suddenly they made it T...I'd make a stink about that too. You see, the R could have been just a mistake or a change in thought from the pilot to the established.

Enterprise walks in face of some 30 years of canon and constant repetition of how many Enterprises they're were.

It's one thing if it doesn't matter but drawing upon a false analogy. You're saying they are equivalent and they aren't and it's almost as bad as breach in logic.

Oh please that's a LOT of Hyperbole. As others have stated the NX-01 was pre-federtion; so it's easy to conclude "6 federation starships named Enterprise" - thus ENT flies in the face of nothing. Hell, do you consider the ships named 'Enterprise' on the observation deck scene of Star Trek: The Motion Picture non-canon?

As for "the middle name (James R. Kirk) that never existed"; sorry, it did exist as you could make ou "James R. Kirk" on the tombstone - a continuity glitch is a continuity glitch.

Hell, want to get technical? The 1701 Enyterprise on TOS was a "Starship Class" vessel for nearly a DECADE onscreen UNTIL Star Trek III: The Search For Spock had Checkov sitting next to a display that read "Constitution Class" (Yes, they started calling the 1701 a 'Constitution Class' since the Franz Joseph TOS Tech manual in 1975 - but again that was a book. "Constitution Class" was NEVER used on screen until the 3rd TOS feature film.

As a TOS fan, I'm honestly annoyed with the canon cries that have appeared since the TNG era started. In the 'old days' we had a term for inconsustences in Star Trek (TOS) (and there were many):

YATI = Yet Another Trek Inconsistency

and with a YATI, whomever came up with a logical way to explain it awqay was congratulated. Nowadays it's:

"OMG! How dare ANUONE disrespect Star Trek lore! Hell, how hard can it be to reference 40 years of continuity before coming up witn a new, original and engaging story?! Lazy bastards...."

Sorry, that's way too much hate for me. I've been watching Star Trek first rn since 1969; and with the exception of the entire Star Trek: Viyager series; Star Trek V: The Final Frontier and Star Trek: Memesis and ENT's These Are The Voyages - have enjoyed it lock stiock and barrel.

 

[Admiral Buzzkill]

I agree that all accepted definitions of canon would confirm that Enterprise is, indeed, canon.

In my own mind, however, I pretend it doesn't exist and never happened.

It's all pretend.

Enterprise happened in the same way that TOS happened - they were both TV series called Star Trek. Both existed; both happened.

I ignore a lot of the TOS-based movies, about a third of TOS itself and most of Voyager and DS9. Doesn't mean that I "pretend they didnt exist."

 

[Matt4511]

I agree that all accepted definitions of canon would confirm that Enterprise is, indeed, canon.

In my own mind, however, I pretend it doesn't exist and never happened.

It's all pretend.

Enterprise happened in the same way that TOS happened - they were both TV series called Star Trek. Both existed; both happened.

I ignore a lot of the TOS-based movies, about a third of TOS itself and most of Voyager and DS9. Doesn't mean that I "pretend they didnt exist."

Helpful post. Good to know that TOS and ENT are both fictional. That got away from me a bit there. I've been slapping just over my left nipple for days now, demanding a beam-out. And all I have to show for it is a bruise. Thanks for setting me straight.

To address what substance your post had, I think you can ignore whatever you will, of course, but with Enterprise, it's quite easy to plug my ears and hum loudly and act like it never happened. That's the risk you take with a prequel. People who enjoyed the earlier-produced work can simply ignore the prequel. Maybe that means never watching it, or like me, watching it and then sort of giving my head a vigourous Etch-a-Sketch-like shake to wipe it all out. If it works for you, God bless ya, but it ain't my thing.

 

[SFRabid]

So there we have it. The new definition. "If I don't like it, it's not canon."

 

[Middleman]

So there we have it. The new definition. "If I don't like it, it's not canon."

And that's why I wont dignify this ridiculous thread with a serious posting.

 

[Withers]

Yet you do dignify it with a post as though there were really any difference between the two?

I don't get it; even people who argue for the fact that Enterprise is absolutely cannon (me) get lambasted for participating in these threads as though a.) we've all been here for each and every time this subject has been brought up and b.) there were some wildly more important discussion going on in the Enterprise forum. By comparison to the other forums dedicated to series this one is a ghost town.

Why is this conversation treated with such disdain? If you don't like it no one is forcing you to post here.

-Withers-​

 

[Yug]

Yet you do dignify it with a post as though there were really any difference between the two?

I don't get it; even people who argue for the fact that Enterprise is absolutely cannon (me) get lambasted for participating in these threads as though a.) we've all been here for each and every time this subject has been brought up and b.) there were some wildly more important discussion going on in the Enterprise forum. By comparison to the other forums dedicated to series this one is a ghost town.

Why is this conversation treated with such disdain? If you don't like it no one is forcing you to post here.

-Withers-​

No one is forcing anyone to post, but these silly snipe wars make it less fun. What happened to sharing ideas and playful speculation? Now we're going to be derisive and exclusionary in these OPEN forums... honestly?

The various "canon/no canon" threads in the Enterprise forum are so off topic and oppressive because of all the pissing contests that the real topic is being muddled and ignored. That's what is creating the "disdain", it's not even an entertaining argument anymore. It's not that there's more important discussions, it's only that these recent threads are tedious and tiresome because of all the back biting.

I'm not forced to read them, or comment in any of these threads... but I did because I wanted to, because it's fun and stimulating. But don't worry, I won't anymore... you win.

Have fun !! I didn't.

 

[Middleman]

Yet you do dignify it with a post as though there were really any difference between the two?

I don't get it; even people who argue for the fact that Enterprise is absolutely cannon (me) get lambasted for participating in these threads as though a.) we've all been here for each and every time this subject has been brought up and b.) there were some wildly more important discussion going on in the Enterprise forum. By comparison to the other forums dedicated to series this one is a ghost town.

Why is this conversation treated with such disdain? If you don't like it no one is forcing you to post here.

-Withers-​

I don't recall lambasting anyone. All I was saying (admittedly in strong words) is that the topic doesn't make sense to me and to even participate in the discussion is a waste. The answer to the question is clear and the topic just causes needless arguments, hence Ridiculous.

 

[Withers]

So you posted to say you're not going to post? C'mon, I'm on your side- Help us Obi wan Kenobi. We need your help Threads like this die when people decide they aren't worth it anymore and believe it or they are fun when people debate in them... but I agree, when something like the canon status of Enterprise devolves into personal attacks, it becomes silly season.

So, I mean, if you do have a thought on it (that doesn't equate to "discussion of this is stupid!" as a few helpful posters have already posited) join in- help keep civil and non-ya know, dumb. But posting to say "I'll not be posting here" is... I'm sorry, I keep getting distracted by your avatar. What is that?

I don't recall lambasting anyone.

That wasn't directed at you necessarily. Don't worry.

The answer to the question is clear and the topic just causes needless arguments, hence Ridiculous.

Well, what arguments would you term as "needed?" All of these shows have been off the air for at least half a decade and have basically zero percent chance of ever being revisited by anything but novelists yet here we are, debating any number of "senseless" things. How is this particular topic any different?

 

[Middleman]

I'm sorry, I keep getting distracted by your avatar. What is that?

Jolene Blalock

 

[Middleman]

Deleted

 

[Hopeful Romantic]

Why is this conversation treated with such disdain?

...but I agree, when something like the canon status of Enterprise devolves into personal attacks, it becomes silly season.

Ironic coming from you, since you have contributed your part to the silliness. All the oneupmanship and "Oh yeah? Says you!" attitude got old days ago. Threads like this die when they become No-Fun Zones, too.

The great majority of members here demonstrate an ability to share opinions, discuss, speculate, and disagree, all while remaining civil and friendly, rather than argumentative and condescending. By all means, give it a try.

 

[Withers]

Ironic coming from you, since you have contributed your part to the silliness.

Show me an example of a personal attack from me in this thread and I'll eat my words.

The great majority of members here demonstrate an ability to share opinions, discuss, speculate, and disagree, all while remaining civil and friendly, rather than argumentative and condescending. By all means, give it a try.

Absolutely nothing condescending about that little blurb.

Threads like this die when they become No-Fun Zones, too.

So long we're sharing what causes the death of things I think sub-forums die when emphatic declarations are immediately met with moderator threats. I've seen it happen more times than I can count.

-Withers-​

 

[Saquist]

Given that all series of trek are guilty of this, I don't understand why you are picking on poor Enterprise.

Simple contradictions in facts don't often effect entire series But in ENTERPRISES case they do. But that's the nature of prequels. The other series were sequels.

You note and accept my point, then you completely disregard it?

I wasn't willing to jump to the assumption that because the first ship (NX-01) was refereed to as a class that the entire system is different. I'd agree with you because we don't ever see progressive NX-00 numbers in today's Star Fleet. But there is an Overriding fact: VOY. And even though the NX-01-A was a fake ship it was masquerading as a Star Fleet ship and the registry of this ship did not alert the crew of a 24th century ship that it was bogus in any way.

In order for me to make your assumption the Voyager episode would have to be erased from canon. As long as it is there it represents reasonable doubt to ENTERPRISE'S existence.

Actually, since you don't know how the Federation decides on the registry numbers, you can't say this for sure.

What I do know is that the system has always been progressive. How exactly the system works is unknown yet a tremendous amount of research on registry through Sternbach, Berman and Okuda tell us they are just that simple and nothing more complicated, like a code or block of numbers.

If one doesn't want to accept that conclusion because it's not canon it's acceptable and the entire argument is null and void.

I do not see how this is logical.

All we can logically conclude is that the NX represents an experimental vessel. There's no reason to conclude that this is in any way connected to a 200 year old vessel.

I disagree the Alphanumeric has never meant anything else but a reference to an older or original ship bearing the registry that is meant to be honored.

Consider that the Intrepid name has had two incarnations in Trek, An Excelsior Class and an Intrepid class. The Intrepid s although bearing the same name does not bear the same registry or an alphanumeric to the Excelsior Class Intrepid.

If there is any other conclusions based on the facts that you would like to present I would be glad to admit there are other possibilities allowed by canon but at this time I don't see it.

We're in a discussion about whether Enterprise is Canon. Sorry for thinking your arguments about all the violations of continuity you see in Enterprise were in favour of Enterprise being canon.

Apology accepted.
You would have had to read my initial post.

At this point what is a precedent not a mistake? Proofread please.

I do not understand.

Or maybe the computer actually thought abnout it and when he said that he wanted to see "my old ship", which he specified was the "Enterprise", the computer figured he had once served on a ship named the Enterprise. And then it figured that only the 1701 Enterprises still had crew who were still alive.

So the computer basically though, "Everyone who ever served on NX-01 is now dead, and since I'm fairly certain there are no zombies walkin g the corridors, this man obviously didn't serve on NX-01." And thus the computer didn't include it, reasonably deciding to only include the ships that still had surviving crew members.

Do you see anything implausible there?

No, and I never said there nothing particularly implausible about such speculation but it is conjecture and not official.

You see I don't let one line of text decide it all. I take The Motion Picture, The next Generation: Relics DS9: Trials and Tribbulations and the VOY: Hope and Fear into account to come to a conclusion because that is the complete Data of past canon on the past enterprise comments and or statements and they all exclude the NX-01.

I could make the same argument about lots of things in Trek. Why do you only apply this logic to Entperise?

I would like you to relate such an example that effects an entire series like these affect Enterprise. Anything that you can show me that clarifies why you think my logic is unsound would be helpful.

And how do you know that the error is in Enterprise, not the other series? Please don't tell me that you're going by what said it first.

Precedent and weight of mutual exclusion. In other words. Series consensus.

I mean, by that logic, wouldn't you dismiss Dax from DS9? After all, a major plot point of "The Host" was that the Federation hadn't really heard about the Trill.

You're making the assumption again that I believe ENT isn't canon. It is canon, I simply believe it shouldn't be because of the contradiction.

It's not that DAX shouldn't exist it's that DAX shouldn't be a Federation officer. But yes that is effectively the same.

The computer referred to Federation ships, and you seem to think it is am mistake that it didn't refer to NX-01. Why?!?!

The computer is automatically assuming that the NX-01 doesn't exist or is not the ship Scott is speaking of. Either assumption is problematic since the computer is frequently literal.

(So since this dialogue doesn't fall in line with the computers typical behavior the question of whether the computer is assuming anything becomes irrelevant because the inconsistency, it can't be trusted. So the only factor remaining to consider is the writers of the episode. They apparently assumed that the only Enterprise that Scott is referring could only be a starship as well as a Federation ship as though there was no other ship named Enterprise that had a bridge.

[Could the dialogue refer to something we haven't heard of...sure but it won't be official until it's written into canon at this point it's just an error on the part of the producers of ENT.]

You don't have to look at it from this literal perspective but I prefer to stick specifically to the information at had, address the contradictions and let them speak for themselves.

How about in Star Trek 5 when they make a journey to the center of the galaxy in just a few hours. Days at most. If a Connie could do it so quick, why does a ship almost a century more advanced take the best part of a century?

At a speed of Warp 9.999999
One would travel 30,000 ly in 5 days.
That is 2,154,433.326363131 x the speed of light.

Star Trek V contradicts every TOS episode with an imperative distance to travel, Like Galileo Seven and Amok Time, where Spock has to be on Vulcan in 8 days

You told Withers that the entire series of Enterprise doesn't fit. So if I name something from Enterprise (and I won't cheat and use something minor), I'm sure you'd be able to tell me how that thing is inconsistant with the other series.

For example, in what way is the Xindi attack inconsistant with any part of any of the other series? What about the Klingon version of the Augment virus thingy? If anything, that REMOVES an inconsistancy between ToS and everything else!

By "Entire" Series what I don't mean is that every fact small and large is in contradiction and doesn't fit rather that the entire premise of the series. A ship named Enterprise, carrying these events as canon is in contradiction. I think you understand that. You just used an error in Star Trek V to attempt to override the Entire Series of Voyager. That would have worked if ST:V was the first to set a Precedent on Speed.

How do you know that every stafleet vessel named Enterprise was registered as NCC 1701 with a letter? Please provide evidence for your claim that there were no other registries ever used on a ship named Enterprise.

That information has been disclosed.
Specifically DS9 says "which Enterprise there are 6" That is an all inclusive statement.

Even more exclusively Sisko says.
"This was the first Enterprise. Constitution class."
This sheds light as to why the Computer in Relics seems to Exclude the NX-01

Please cite evidence that the registry system used on NX-01 is the same as used on NCC-1701.

I really don't need to. If canon doesn't say they are different and there is no visual difference in the registry then there is no reason to assume these represent two different Star Fleet Registry sytems.

In the registry NX-01, the letters represent the prototype of the class. Is NCC-1701 an NCC class ship? No? Then it's a different registry system!

I'm sorry, I cannot make that assumption. It's the same organization "Star Fleet" using the same same letters in the presence of a prototype ship. What they name the class and the registry have nothing to do with one another. I always endeavor to be consistent. The NX for Excelsior is not particular to the class why would I assume that the "NX" class of ship must therefore have anything thing to do with the registry other than being named according to it's prefix which means, "prototype"?

I'm not going to go searching for things. You want to use a line as evidence, you'd better quote that line in the discussion where you want to use it as evidence. I won't do your homework for you.

As you wish.

And the other shows are?

Relativity. Yes. Their premise doesn't contradict a past established by the original show.

Non sequiter. I am saying that you are citing as your evidence the differences in registry system, and the fact that Enterprise doesn't meet the definition of the kind of space vessels provided as a passaway line.

You claimed that this was much more than a handful of evidence for your position. It is not more than a handful.

I have no idea how you got that I found it unpleasant...

By the repetitious use of vulgarities.

it seems that you are interpreting the ionconsistancies in Enterprise as bigger than those in the other shows in order to say that the inconsistancies in enterprise are bigger than in the other shows and therefore enterprise is wrong.

Circular logic.

Circluar logic is a proposition which is proved by the premise.
They are frequently implicit and opinion based. However I've never said the bigger contradiction makes ENT wrong. I said the contradiction itself makes ENT wrong and that from my studies of logic is a valid argument.

Where direct contractions exist before a precedent is thus an error.

In other words, you are saying, "None of the other shows ever mentioned it, so it doesn't exist."

More precisely that some of the shows failed to be include it and one show excluded it by totality.

A graphic on a fake ship that appears in one episode is bigger evidence to you than four seasons' worth of episodes?

It is merely controverting evidence in the case against Enterprise that supports my claims.

Again, how is this inconsistant?

How is what inconsistent?

She was the earliest born person to have contact with them. In any case, the events of regeneration follow on logically from FC, and I don't see that they violate canon. There's really no reason why a starfleet captain would know information that was classified top secret two centuries before.

I don't recall the top secret designation.
Further, I believe The Omega Directive is proof that Captains have access to relevant Top Secret information. That the Federation never informs Picard after the Q Who attack or before the Best of Both Worlds attack causes me exclude such speculation.

And how is this inconsistant?

And how is this inconsistant?

\
"It evidences Enterprise's role in history was far more substantial than the lack of reference implies."

I'm sorry, in which episode did T'Pol get pregnant with trip's child?

Correction: Test-tube procreation apparently.

Once again, how is this inconsistant?

"It implies Enterprises role in history was far more substantial than the lack of reference implies."

or perhaps it is a few references to the number of ships named Enterprise that contradict an entire series.

TOEmato, Ta mato
The contradiction remains.

You would have preferred it if Enterprise was even more primitive than NCC-1701? So no touch screens (despite the fact they exist today - you think they;d forget that technology?) Use lasers, despite the fact that audiences today wouldn't believe that lasers would act like that for a moment?

Just becaue we have a certain technology ...lets say on Earth doesn't mean it is necessarily a good technology for microgravity. Such as today this technology isn't carried into space because there are issues with their long term function in microgravity.

Nevertheless, this is about canon not reality.
How is it relevant what we do in reality compared to a Television show, We have not launched augmented supermen into space in the year 1996, why should we assume the technology assumes the same curve as well?

What part of classic trek (apart from your repeated mentions of the registry system and the lines from Balance of terror) does Enterprise cast aside?

What more do I need?
This isn't circumstantial evidence.
They are direct contradictions (plural) against the series.
They don't need to be minor or major to be valid.

You're just as justified to embrace it if you wish.

 

[cooleddie74]

I think some of us overthink this canon thing WAAAAAAAAAAAAAAY too much for comfort.