Is Ensign Kim the whiniest character ever?

[Guy Gardener]

This whole promotion thing is stupid. Let's say he was promoted.. so? How would this change his character or the stories about him? It would change nothing. He would just have one more pip.

It gives the character a turning point and by doing something awesome to earn that promotion, it shows that he is putting effort into improving himself and making inroads into showing the crew what he can do. It is a reward for him that proves he has the right stuff. Who wants to see a Ensign that stays that way for 7 years, it makes him look like that pathetic version of Picard from Tapestry, that he is a loser with no real drive or initiative, audiences don't want to see a character who is not proactive.

Really, how it would have hurt Harry Kim as a character, if he got a promotion? I think that would give him a place to grow and develop rather then staying stagnant as an Ensign for 7 years.

The toys would be incorrect. Why buy an out of date doll? The Janeway dolls from season two are still selling, but no one wants to buy an Ensign Kim doll when there's Lieutenant Kim figurines in the next expansion... And if the character is so poor selling, and if he is likely to get another promotion making the new action figures not out yet autoredundant... WHY BOTHER MAKING KIM TOYS!!??

Examine how ####ed up the TNG season 2 novels are.

Pulaski put the poo into Pulaski.

It's an exhausting aberant detour that no one should bother with becuase Beverly is coming back and came back and put a ring on it.

 

[The Overlord]

This whole promotion thing is stupid. Let's say he was promoted.. so? How would this change his character or the stories about him? It would change nothing. He would just have one more pip.

It gives the character a turning point and by doing something awesome to earn that promotion, it shows that he is putting effort into improving himself and making inroads into showing the crew what he can do. It is a reward for him that proves he has the right stuff. Who wants to see a Ensign that stays that way for 7 years, it makes him look like that pathetic version of Picard from Tapestry, that he is a loser with no real drive or initiative, audiences don't want to see a character who is not proactive.

Really, how it would have hurt Harry Kim as a character, if he got a promotion? I think that would give him a place to grow and develop rather then staying stagnant as an Ensign for 7 years.

The toys would be incorrect. Why buy an out of date doll? The Janeway dolls from season two are still selling, but no one wants to buy an Ensign Kim doll when there's Lieutenant Kim figurines in the next expansion... And if the character is so poor selling, and if he is likely to get another promotion making the new action figures not out yet autoredundant... WHY BOTHER MAKING KIM TOYS!!??

Examine how ####ed up the TNG season 2 novels are.

Pulaski put the poo into Pulaski.

It's an exhausting aberant detour that no one should bother with becuase Beverly is coming back and came back and put a ring on it.

You seem to have a talent with non sequiturs.

 

[Captain Kathryn]

This whole promotion thing is stupid. Let's say he was promoted.. so? How would this change his character or the stories about him? It would change nothing. He would just have one more pip.

I don't know, it wouldn't have hurt to have given him a promotion. We saw Tuvok promoted for basically no concrete story reason. But I guess they wanted to have an Ensign? Agreed, it would not have changed any of Harry's stories or anything.

They might have had a nice opportunity for a story when Tom was demoted to Ensign. Having Harry get promoted to Lieutenant during Tom's Ensign days would have made for some tension possibly.

 

[JirinPanthosa]

I disagree with the Wesley Crusher comparisons. Harry Kim is the kind of person who's smart because he studies 12 hours a day. Wesley Crusher is just a naturally talented person.

Also, Harry was obsessed with pleasing authority figures, whereas Wesley was obsessed with showing off and proving he's better than people.

It's true Harry couldn't have ordered a self destruct but he could have tried to blow up the warp core. It was an emotional dereliction of duty not to try to do that, but certainly not treasonous. And I would blame the writers handwaving that more than Kim. They could have had some mention to Kim trying to blow up the ship and the Doctor disagreeing and they didn't because they didn't feel like making it part of the story.

 

[Guy Gardener]

Basics and Deadlock. Janeway tried to blow up the ship or did blow up the ship rather than submit to being food or spare parts.

Kim was raped in the pilot.

You'd think that he would be more sensitive to the question of powerlessness.

 

[TEACAKE'S PLEATHER DOME]

They might have had a nice opportunity for a story when Tom was demoted to Ensign. Having Harry get promoted to Lieutenant during Tom's Ensign days would have made for some tension possibly.

Now that is an excellent idea!!

And it makes sense that Tom would not get promoted for quite a while because, prison.

If they had run with this idea for oh, a season, I predict there would have been 300GB more Harry/Tom slash out there. As it is we really only have The Chute.

 

[ihno]

What about Be'lanna*?

I find her very whiny, not only in the scenes, when she was still young. She's so whiny about herself, her work, her friends etc. that she even attempted to change her child's DNA.

*I'm still learning how to write that.

 

[Captain Kathryn]

What about Be'lanna*?

I find her very whiny, not only in the scenes, when she was still young. She's so whiny about herself, her work, her friends etc. that she even attempted to change her child's DNA.

*I'm still learning how to write that.

Eh, I don't see her as whiny. More like a hothead with a difficult past.

As for writing it, it's "B'Elanna".

 

[Lynx]

Honestly, I have nothing against Kim but I must admit that sometimes he came out as very whiny.

There were some scenes, like his arguing with Tuvok in "Resolutions" and his reaction when the wormhole in "Eye Of The Needle" turned out to be useless where he looked like a spoiled kid who is on the verge of starting to cry because his parents won't give him the expensive toy he wants.

He don't look like a Starfleet Officer in those scenes.

In fact, Wesley did seem to have more guts.

Unfortunately, the character was a victim of the writers who from the start turned him into the whipping boy of the series. Compare that to the Voyager books where he's actually more constructive even if he has the bad habit of ending up in sickbay badly injured in many of them.

 

[TEACAKE'S PLEATHER DOME]

I like B'Elnanna better after repeat viewings. I enjoy her exasperation with 7, she feels no need to baby the Borg and be polite. By making her not relate to Klingons be more human it did make a lot of her interactions more whiny though, she lacked the chutzpah of Grilka for instance.

 

[TEACAKE'S PLEATHER DOME]

Unfortunately, the character was a victim of the writers who from the start turned him into the whipping boy of the series. Compare that to the Voyager books where he's actually more constructive even if he has the bad habit of ending up in sickbay badly injured in many of them.

Yeah so that the other characters could either show concern or not show enough concern In other words, often a prop.

And let's not forget his falling out with Tom over several books, all those long drawn out hurt feelings.. so embarrassing to read.

 

[Lynx]

Unfortunately, the character was a victim of the writers who from the start turned him into the whipping boy of the series. Compare that to the Voyager books where he's actually more constructive even if he has the bad habit of ending up in sickbay badly injured in many of them.

Yeah so that the other characters could either show concern or not show enough concern In other words, often a prop.

And let's not forget his falling out with Tom over several books, all those long drawn out hurt feelings.. so embarrassing to read.

Huh! Have I missed something? I can't remember any conflicts between Harry and Tom in the Voyager books

 

[TEACAKE'S PLEATHER DOME]

Tom didn't tell Harry something or other and Harry's feelings were hurt. There was estrangement.

Also B'Elanna didn't tell Tom something or other and Tom's feelings were hurt. There was estrangement.

Meanwhile Chak had an emo meltdown after Kathryn died almost immediately after finally sexing him and he refused to talk to Tom and Harry and their feelings were hurt. There was estrangement.

As the Treklit Turns.

 

[Captain Kathryn]

Unfortunately, the character was a victim of the writers who from the start turned him into the whipping boy of the series. Compare that to the Voyager books where he's actually more constructive even if he has the bad habit of ending up in sickbay badly injured in many of them.

Yeah so that the other characters could either show concern or not show enough concern In other words, often a prop.

And let's not forget his falling out with Tom over several books, all those long drawn out hurt feelings.. so embarrassing to read.

UGH I forgot about how he stayed mad at Tom and B'Elanna in the books. I mean, I understand why he was mad, yes. If someone did the same thing with me I would be mad. But...after Tom apologized like 10 times and explained their reasons, Harry needed to just let it go. And his whiny comebacks whenever they were together were just stupid. And his threats to leave. LOL. I did enjoy the way they were reunited though.

Yeah, he was whiny during that period in the books. Even with the whole Libby thing in the earlier books, he was emo.

 

[Captain Kathryn]

Tom didn't tell Harry something or other and Harry's feelings were hurt. There was estrangement.

Also B'Elanna didn't tell Tom something or other and Tom's feelings were hurt. There was estrangement.

Meanwhile Chak had an emo meltdown after Kathryn died almost immediately after finally sexing him and he refused to talk to Tom and Harry and their feelings were hurt. There was estrangement.

As the Treklit Turns.

Emo Chakotay was almost unbearable. When he finally came to grips, I was all HALLELUJAH.

 

[Lynx]

Tom didn't tell Harry something or other and Harry's feelings were hurt. There was estrangement.

Also B'Elanna didn't tell Tom something or other and Tom's feelings were hurt. There was estrangement.

Meanwhile Chak had an emo meltdown after Kathryn died almost immediately after finally sexing him and he refused to talk to Tom and Harry and their feelings were hurt. There was estrangement.

As the Treklit Turns.

Ah, you're referring to the more recent Voyager books while I was referring to the seasons 1-3 books which were published during the airing of seasons 1-3.
I really like those books. Most of the stories are better than the TV episodes, especially "The Black Shore" and "Marooned".

Poor Harry. He was OK in the seasons 1-3 books, except for his habit to be seriously wounded in some of them. Now they have turned him into a wimp in the books too.

 

[TEACAKE'S PLEATHER DOME]

I like those books too Lynx, good characterization and the lack of serial element from book to book keeps them from getting bogged down. At one point Treklit had smushed every ship and series together into a huge arc, both from the shows and from the novels and it was exhausting and hard to keep track of, also forced you to read about people you didn't care about

They were ALL weird and wimpy in the newer books but you don't really notice too much because the incredible emo pit of horror that Chak became for several books overshadows all the rest.

Mandatory break in bitching to tell people: The Destiny trilogy is excellent.

 

[Lynx]

Honestly, what I've seen and heard, I'm not so sure that I would like the characterization of my favorites in the newer books. Chakotay as an emo? No way!

Who knows what the future will bring but so far I prefer the old books. I don't think I ever will be tired of "The Black Shore".

 

[Guy Gardener]

Is he said because Kathy is dead?

 

[JirinPanthosa]

I liked B'elana more early in the series than later. Later on most of her memorable moments other than her romance with Tom involved her getting suicidal or otherwise moody and angsty.