Is Disney "Star Wars" universe imploding?

[Campe]

It seemed as though TFA was setting up a mystery box to eventually explain why it all came so easily and that maybe it was a lineage thing (which I don't particularly like) but then that was discarded by Rian Johnson.

I don't think its necessarily fair to suggest Johnson discarded anything. If he did anything, he punted to Episode IX. Which honestly makes sense because it is a big mystery that, while minimized in TLJ, is a throughline for the trilogy: Who is Rey? Why does she have these Force powers? As for anything regarding lineage, even from the outset of TFA, Rey is set up as a no one with parents who were no one. I think ultimately, the mirror cave scene is going to mean a lot more once the trilogy is complete.

 

[suarezguy]

It's the biggest IP in the world being run by one of the largest corporations in the world. It will take a lot more than a small handful of angry nerds on the internet to 'implode' it.

The interesting thing is that, though SW will get at least some more leeway, a film (series) doesn't have to actually totally fail (bomb) to be considered a failure, it just has to underperform, especially given how expensive big movies have become these days.

 

[CorporalCaptain]

lightsaber skills (let alone the scene where Finn wields it which was ridiculous)

Scene? Which scene. I can think of two.

The first time Finn wields the lightsaber, it's against another stormtrooper who has a weapon that's able to engage with it and who appears to have been specifically trained to fight against lightsabers.

http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Riot_control_stormtrooper_(First_Order)
http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Z6_riot_control_baton
http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/FN-2199

What can we conclude from this? Clearly, we can conclude that at least some specialized stormtroopers are aware of lightsabers and of their capabilities. The fact that some stormtroopers are present in the ranks ready to confront that weapon suggests that all stormtroopers have at least a general familiarity with the Jedi weapon and that, even if they have not personally received training in fighting against it, they know who in their formations to summon to confront it.

It's therefore not at all unreasonable to assume that at some point while he was still a stormtrooper Finn could have at least witnessed training demonstrations of the use of the Z6 baton against the lightsaber. If you're in a fight for your life, I guarantee you that you're going to use every scrap of experience that you're able to apply. The idea that Finn would at least put up a fight is no stretch at all. He even got defeated by FN-2199, evidently of the two the one with the specific training for that type of engagement. Only Han saved Finn.

Another thing that happens when you fight is that you learn from your experiences. What Finn learned against FN-2199, he no doubt applied when went up against Kylo Ren, when he also did not prevail. He still put up a fight. What's he going to do, just bow his head and let Kylo chop his head off?

It's really hard for me to see any problem with the idea that Finn's going to be wielding that saber, either time.

 

[John Clark]

Pretty much, I've had it about a year now and it's gone down twice (I think)

I think we've had ours going back to the NTL days and it's been (mostly) fine over all that time

 

[fireproof78]

I don't think its necessarily fair to suggest Johnson discarded anything. If he did anything, he punted to Episode IX. Which honestly makes sense because it is a big mystery that, while minimized in TLJ, is a throughline for the trilogy: Who is Rey? Why does she have these Force powers? As for anything regarding lineage, even from the outset of TFA, Rey is set up as a no one with parents who were no one. I think ultimately, the mirror cave scene is going to mean a lot more once the trilogy is complete.

I love the conclusion that because we didn't see everything in TLJ then the movie is garbage.

 

[Campe]

I love the conclusion that because we didn't see everything in TLJ then the movie is garbage.

People keep suggesting that this isn't preplanned, and from a nitty-gritty perspective, they're absolutely right. But scripting to that level would get you in trouble if someone decided to leave the series or, ya know, died. The broad strokes, I am certain, were on the canvas long ago.

They're just painting in those happy little trees now.

 

[mos6507]

People keep suggesting that this isn't preplanned.

It was never preplanned to the level of, ya know, Lord of the Rings. I was suckered into thinking it was preplanned when I heard of Lucas' "Journal of the Whills" decades ago, only to find out that he really only had a series of action set-pieces that he moved around almost arbitrarily.

There have now been many articles explaining that no, this new trilogy is NOT preplanned, that it's more (as they call it) a relay-race, or a game of telephone. This can work but the most likely outcome is a whole that feels like it's zigging and zagging without proper foreshadowing.

I mean, people are suggesting Rian Johnson just decided to throw the mirror scene in because he liked the look of a Simple Minds video. While the next writer can go back and add layers of meaning to it, I'm not so sure there's much more than a cool visual right now.

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It's kind of like when Brent Spiner tells that story about how people ask him what he is thinking when he does that signature head-twitch move as Data he responds "nothing". People will manufacture meaning even when there is none.

 

[Refuge]

You assumed wrong. Remember when Yoda said "too old to begin the training!"? Remember when Luke got his ass kicked trying to saber fight Vader in Empire? And that was after he at least got SOME training from Yoda, unlike Rey who was swinging the saber around with none.

I agree. She just put out her hand and ....whoooooosh! The saber came to her and then she kicked Ren's arse

 

[fireproof78]

It's kind of like when Brent Spiner tells that story about how people ask him what he is thinking when he does that signature head-twitch move as Data he responds "nothing". People will manufacture meaning even when there is none.

That's the nature of art.

I agree. She just put out her hand and ....whoooooosh! The saber came to her and then she kicked Ren's arse

The saber had already called out to her, so there is connection there. Also, as has been beaten in to the ground, buried and the beaten back in to the ground on the other side of the Earth, Kylo was emotionally crippled and physically wounded.

In other words, let's have you kill your dad and get shot in the side and see you do.

 

[Refuge]

In other words, let's have you kill your dad and get shot in the side and see you do.

What about your Dad slicing off your hand? Now that is story telling

 

[fireproof78]

What about your Dad slicing off your hand? Now that is story telling

No, it really isn't. It's become a trope and a ridiculous one at that.

 

[Refuge]

No, it really isn't. It's become a trope and a ridiculous one at that.

Maybe they should go for the foot instead?

 

[fireproof78]

Maybe they should go for the foot instead?

Maybe.

 

[Refuge]

Just thinking some more on this if Lucas had been writing Infinity War that hand chopping thing would have changed everything.

 

[fireproof78]

Just thinking some more on this if Lucas had been writing Infinity War that hand chopping thing would have changed everything.

 

[CorporalCaptain]

Just thinking some more on this if Lucas had been writing Infinity War that hand chopping thing would have changed everything.

Too soon.

 

[Campe]

Too soon.

I don’t feel so good...

 

[Refuge]

I don't wanna go...

 

[Campe]

Heart wrenching, that scene.

 

[Gavin70]

the years of formal training Kylo Ren received in all things Jedi from Luke

Do we know that it was years of training? I don't remember clearly what was established in the movies but from what I do recall there was nothing to say whether Kylo Ren had been training for years or days (although I'd imagine somewhere in between that). Does either movie establish how long ago Luke set up the academy or how long Kylo Ren had been there?

more of an anyone can be a Jedi if you just believe hard enough attitude ala the broom scene at the end of Last Jedi

I never got that "anyone who believes can be a Jedi" concept from the movie. I saw it more as a continuation of what I'd seen in previous movies - that anyone could (or might) be a Jedi (or force sensitive) but not anyone who believes or tries can be. It seems to be more a case that the force can choose (not sure if that's the right word) anyone, rather than it being something passed along by bloodlines. And the bloodlines thing seems like a strange idea given that the prequels established that the Jedi council forbade relationships. I know that doesn't preclude sex or children, but certainly the idea that came across was that the prohibition on relationships was to prevent the Jedi from becoming attached to individuals so they could better serve the whole Republic. So having children seems to go against that. And yet if Jedi ability was passed along bloodlines it seems strange that the Jedi Council wouldn't want to encourage their strongest to have children and bring new Jedi into the universe.

It also doesn't explain her immediate ability to use of force persuasion.

I guess my understanding about how the force is used is that it doesn't really seem to depend much on training. Anakin was a great podracer (due to his force sensitivity) without Jedi training. Luke was able to use the force to target the Death Star despite only having a few hours (at most) of training. The training seems to be more about controlling emotions and not allowing anger or fear to take over. So anyone who is force sensitive can use the force without training, but the training helps them to focus and not give in to darker emotions and probably also teaches them different ways of using the force (although I think anyone with enough imagination should be able to figure out some of those ways). So by that understanding Rey is clearly force sensitive, she is aware that the force can be used for persuasion, she's heard enough about the Jedi to know that using the force is a matter of focusing your mind, and she basically tries until she gets it (which to a large degree is how Luke's training with Yoda went - Yoda said do this and Luke seemed to have to figure it out). And its easy enough to assume that Rey's success with force persuasion was largely due to it being a weak minded Stormtrooper who was already accustomed to following orders. If she'd tried it with a more independent thinker it may not have worked for her.