Iron Fist (Marvel/Netflix)

[dahj]

The problem is that we are talking about this single story, like it was the only culprit of decades of Hollywood misrepresentation.

The thing is you can't really talk about a single story in an interconnected universe.
If this was a one-off thing, it probably wouldn't end up being such a big deal, but Marvel has consistently show a pattern of making very little effort to update themselves in favour of maintaining the status quo.

 

[Skipper]

The thing is you can't really talk about a single story in an interconnected universe.

Err, yes you can. If after watching Iron Fist we find that it is the most racist thing ever appeared on this planet, it's not like that Ant-Man and Luke Cage automatically are racist by some bizarre form of osmosis.

 

[JD]

Ok, we aren't exaggerating a little bit? Kung-fu is basically a way to beat the crap out people. It's like saying that Ashita no Joe is offensive to Westerners, because Boxe is inherently a part of Western culture.

Are you serious? There is a lot more to Asian martial arts than just beating people up, there is an entire philosophy system that tends to go along with them. The actual beating people up part is actually a pretty small part of real Asian martial arts. One of the things they emphasis most is that you should only use the martial arts as a last resort, and that you should avoid using them as much as possible. I took studied a Korean martial art, Tang Sos Do,for several years as a kid, so this all comes from personal experience. I know it's Kung Fu exactly, but this tends to apply to all martial arts. There's a reason some of the most famous practitioners are monks.

 

[Skipper]

Are you serious? There is a lot more to Asian martial arts than just beating people up, there is an entire philosophy system that tends to go along with them. The actual beating people up part is actually a pretty small part of real Asian martial arts. One of the things they emphasis most is that you should only use the martial arts as a last resort, and that you should avoid using them as much as possible. I took studied a Korean martial art, Tang Sos Do,for several years as a kid, so this all comes from personal experience. I know it's Kung Fu exactly, but this tends to apply to all martial arts. There's a reason some of the most famous practitioners are monks.

Sifu Onassis Parungao is one of the best traditional Chinese Martial Arts practitioner in the world, and is quite wary about all the Kung-Fu mystical aspect:

In Spiritual Terms…well there is none for me that comes from my kung fu training. I’m a Catholic so I’d like to think that my self-control, forgiveness and understanding that life is precious comes from Jesus Christ. Obviously nobody’s perfect and I have plenty of my own crosses to bear.

And still he is one of the best Kung-Fu fighter in the world. So you can learn kung-fu from a practical point of view without all the mystical baggage.

 

[JD]

Sure, you don't have to but it's still a pretty big part of most of the traditional stuff, and especially in a series like Iron Fist it really shouldn't be ignored.

 

[Skipper]

Sure, you don't have to but it's still a pretty big part of most of the traditional stuff, and especially in a series like Iron Fist it really shouldn't be ignored.

So what? If they address the mystical aspect, they would be accused to trivialize the subject. If they don't talk about it, they are ignoring an important part of Kung Fu.

And really, it's not like they always talk about the traditional stuff in the Chinese/Hong Kong movies. Sometimes they just beat the crap out of each other.

 

[JD]

Yeah, but when your main character's powers are based around chi and he was trained in a magical city, then it really should be a part of your story. When you present it, it would be better to do it in an authentic way, and not in a cliched racist stereotype. I'm just talking in general here, I'm not saying Iron Fist is a cliched racist stereotype.

 

[Skipper]

Yeah, but when your main character's powers are based around chi and he was trained in a magical city, then it really should be a part of your story. When you present it, it would be better to do it in an authentic way, and not in a cliched racist stereotype. I'm just talking in general here, I'm not saying Iron Fist is a cliched racist stereotype.

Ok, but it is quite difficult to present a "magical city" in an "authentic way". And you can not go and ask a sifu to help you describe in a realistic way how to use your chi to launch energy bolts like a superhero.

 

[JD]

Sure, but there are still the ideas behind chi, and type of belief system and philosphy that would be present in a place like K'un L'un that should be authentic to that region.

 

[Skipper]

Sure, but there are still the ideas behind chi, and type of belief system and philosphy that would be present in a place like K'un L'un that should be authentic to that region.

I still can't understand why it is necessary at all. People were perfectly fine with the ninjas in Netflix's Daredevil, without being informed about all the nuances of shinobi history from the Sengoku period to the present day. It's a work of fiction, not some kind of documentary. If people are curious about the subject, I'm not sure that a tv show is the best source.

 

[TREK_GOD_1]

Things like kung fu aren't just neutral tools, they're part of Chinese culture and belief. .

Whoa.

I have Chinese members of my family (through marriage), of varying backgrounds--old country traditionalists, some more Western raised--the works, and none--even the elderly with longer cultural experiences / memories do not consider kung fu part of their beliefs, and only marginally a cultural matter. To assume anything else is as sweeping and reaching a statement as the kind of "philosophy" packaged and sold on the Carradine Kung Fu series--as if its a just something that's ingrained in every Chinese mind and household. Certainly not the case.

In fact, some of my younger Chinese relatives (some late Gen X-ers & Millennials) consider attempts (by white / Western producers) to be so "understanding" a form of liberal feel-good preaching, when they--members of the actual group--are not always wanting to see a "this is your life and these are your problems" show. They--like anyone else want a solid story.

On that point. if Iron Fist fails, it would be--more than likely--due to what hurts most series: subpar storylines, bad acting, or in this case, maybe--just maybe its the beginning of Marvel overdose.

 

[JD]

I still can't understand why it is necessary at all. People were perfectly fine with the ninjas in Netflix's Daredevil, without being informed about all the nuances of shinobi history from the Sengoku period to the present day. It's a work of fiction, not some kind of documentary. If people are curious about the subject, I'm not sure that a tv show is the best source.

The ninjitsu elements of Daredevil are a fairly small part of the show, but a lot of people did have a problem with the legal elements, which would be a pretty close equivalent to the martial arts aspects of IF.
If IF was just about some dude who learned Kung Fu at the storefront martial arts school down the street that would be one thing, but we're talking about a guy with chi based powers who was trained in an ancient mystical city. Even if the show doesn't focus a lot of time on the philosophical elements, they should still try to present what they do fairly authentically. All I'm talking about is basing it around authentic Chinese philosophies rather than old '60s or '70s racist stereotypes and cliches.

 

[Hound of UIster]

In fact, some of my younger Chinese relatives (some late Gen X-ers & Millennials) consider attempts (by white / Western producers) to be so "understanding" a form of liberal feel-good preaching, when they--members of the actual group--are not always wanting to see a "this is your life and these are your problems" show. They--like anyone else want a solid story.

Your anecdotal evidence is not really useful here. Not when there is movement from the same generational set accusing Marvel (and American society) in general for being racist or out to get them. Ultimately this type of evidence is not useful though I do believe the recent trend is the fringe gaining more mainstream attention.

 

[Skipper]

Not when there is movement from the same generational set accusing Marvel (and American society) in general for being racist or out to get them.

I'm sorry there are people out there that are seriously accusing Marvel to misrepresent Kung-Fu in a racist way in a tv show that they have not yet seen?!?

Now I remember that episode of Unbreakable Kimmy Schmidt...

 

[Hound of UIster]

I'm sorry there are people out there that are seriously accusing Marvel to misrepresent Kung-Fu in a racist way in a tv show that they have not yet seen?!?

No they are just pointing out in general that Marvel is racist. Not just Iron Fist , but all the other stuff: the Hand, Ancient One, AoS etc.

 

[TREK_GOD_1]

Your anecdotal evidence is not really useful here. Not when there is movement from the same generational set accusing Marvel (and American society) in general for being racist or out to get them. Ultimately this type of evidence is not useful though I do believe the recent trend is the fringe gaining more mainstream attention.

Real people are not an anecdote--their lives and background are relevant to any questionable criticism of a TV series no one has seen based on assumptions of that preaching is somehow respectful, or even desired on the part of the group in question. As for this "movement," what are the numbers? Is it some sweeping collective tearing at Marvel over this series?

 

[tenmei]

I've not seen this posted here yet -

http://www.cbr.com/iron-fist-jessica-henwick-defends-finn-jones/

 

[Skipper]

As for this "movement," what are the numbers? Is it some sweeping collective tearing at Marvel over this series?

I'm curious about that myself...

 

[Hound of UIster]

Real people are not an anecdote-

It's difficult to generalize a population of over 16 million people who come from a vast range of cultures and ethnic-social-religious-linguistic backgrounds. I'm just saying a) your examples of "real people" are simply not helpful towards understanding this entire sub-group and b) the recent trends has emphasized their narrative of victimization.

 

[Skipper]

It's difficult to generalize a population of over 16 million people who come from a vast range of cultures and ethnic-social-religious-linguistic backgrounds.

Ok, what are the proofs that the rest of Chinese people feel that Kung-fu is an incredible important part of their culture, heritage and personal life which somewhat defines their intimate essence? And I intend all the 1374.6 million people, from the Ningxia inner region to the city of Shanghai?