Iron Fist (Marvel/Netflix)

[Christopher]

Hint: not one real fight has ever actually looked like a choreographed kung fu movie scene, no matter how well trained the combatants

Yeah, but people who watch martial-arts movies and shows don't want to see real fights, they want to see choreographed kung fu scenes with well-trained combatants. Iron Fist was originally an homage to the martial-arts film craze of the 1970s, so that's what fans of the character want to see. You want to see realistic, unpolished fights, that's what Jessica Jones provides. Daredevil was acclaimed for its fight choreography, and Iron Fist should've been even better at it. But it wasn't, except in the episode Kevin Tancharoen directed. That was the only episode that lived up to expectations in its action choreography -- although the most memorable part wasn't Finn Jones, it was the drunken-fist fighter he went up against (and Colleen's fight going on at the same time).

 

[Spot261]

Yeah, but people who watch martial-arts movies and shows don't want to see real fights, they want to see choreographed kung fu scenes with well-trained combatants. Iron Fist was originally an homage to the martial-arts film craze of the 1970s, so that's what fans of the character want to see. You want to see realistic, unpolished fights, that's what Jessica Jones provides. Daredevil was acclaimed for its fight choreography, and Iron Fist should've been even better at it. But it wasn't, except in the episode Kevin Tancharoen directed. That was the only episode that lived up to expectations in its action choreography -- although the most memorable part wasn't Finn Jones, it was the drunken-fist fighter he went up against (and Colleen's fight going on at the same time).

Yeah, kinda got all that myself

 

[Anwar]

While there was plenty of bias against Iron Fist because of race, there was also a lot of outcry against Doctor Strange about race, too.

They why did Dr Strange's reviews not once bring up the whole "White guy learns foreign arts better than the natives" thing?

It's probably because the place he went to was more clearly diverse with people all over the world there so it wasn't some generic Asian hideaway. And because Magic is something all cultures have.

 

[Christopher]

They why did Dr Strange's reviews not once bring up the whole "White guy learns foreign arts better than the natives" thing?

I remember seeing ones that did -- if not reviews, then certainly articles discussing the film. Although most of the criticism was about casting Tilda Swinton as the Ancient One, a traditionally Asian character. When it comes to whitewashed casting, you're getting into more concrete issues than just representation, because then it's about denying actual job opportunities and income to Asian-American actors, something that the feature film industry does systemically. Granted, casting Asian actors in stereotyped roles like wise ancient mystic or martial-arts master comes with its own problems, but at least then they're getting work.

 

[Anwar]

I remember seeing ones that did -- if not reviews, then certainly articles discussing the film. Although most of the criticism was about casting Tilda Swinton as the Ancient One, a traditionally Asian character. When it comes to whitewashed casting, you're getting into more concrete issues than just representation, because then it's about denying actual job opportunities and income to Asian-American actors, something that the feature film industry does systemically. Granted, casting Asian actors in stereotyped roles like wise ancient mystic or martial-arts master comes with its own problems, but at least then they're getting work.

They replaced a male character with a female one. It comes down to whether or not you think Women are less on the privilege scale than Asian Men.

 

[Christopher]

They replaced a male character with a female one. It comes down to whether or not you think Women are less on the privilege scale than Asian Men.

If you're a white male, you can see those as interchangeable issues, because neither one affects you directly. If you're an Asian-American, they very much aren't the same thing. It's not about what I think, because I'm not one of the people who are hurt by the status quo. But I listen to those who are.

Besides, there are a lot more women getting jobs in Hollywood movies than there are Asian-Americans getting them, so it's hardly equivalent. Tilda Swinton was already a successful actress who had no trouble finding good roles. How many Asian-American actors and actresses never get the chance to reach that level of success because the industry won't give them lead roles at all, even when those roles are based on Asian characters? It's not about this single movie, it's about the fact that it keeps happening over and over and over again.

 

[Anwar]

If you're a white male, you can see those as interchangeable issues, because neither one affects you directly. If you're an Asian-American, they very much aren't the same thing. It's not about what I think, because I'm not one of the people who are hurt by the status quo. But I listen to those who are.

Besides, there are a lot more women getting jobs in Hollywood movies than there are Asian-Americans getting them, so it's hardly equivalent. Tilda Swinton was already a successful actress who had no trouble finding good roles. How many Asian-American actors and actresses never get the chance to reach that level of success because the industry won't give them lead roles at all, even when those roles are based on Asian characters? It's not about this single movie, it's about the fact that it keeps happening over and over and over again.

But if they had cast an Asian Actor/Actress as the character, it would still be seen as a cliche stereotype.

It's basically a no-win scenario.

 

[Snaploud]

I thought the Iron Fist season was fine. It wasn't nearly on par with the Daredevil, Jessica Jones, or Luke Cage seasons, but it was adequate. It's too bad the Danny character got even dumber in the Defenders, but that's pretty much just his character at this point. He needs to go back to school and learn some better decision-making skills.

 

[Christopher]

But if they had cast an Asian Actor/Actress as the character, it would still be seen as a cliche stereotype.

It's basically a no-win scenario.

But at least another Asian actor would have gotten a job. Again, this is not an abstract philosophical question for the people whose actual ability to make a living is at stake. And again, it's not about any one movie, it's about the cumulative pattern. It happens with many movie characters who are based on Asian characters in the source material or on Asian people in real life -- and not just in cliched or stereotyped roles, so that excuse doesn't wash in every case.

And of course it's not a no-win scenario -- that's just an excuse to pretend it's an insoluble problem, and that's crap. It can be solved by writing better, more diverse, less stereotyped roles for Asian actors to play, and by being more willing to cast Asian actors in any roles, whether they're written as specifically Asian or not. TV has shown it can be done, with actors like Kristin Kreuk, John Cho, Ming-Na Wen, B.D. Wong, and others. But as usual, movies lag way behind TV when it comes to social progress.

 

[Anwar]

But at least another Asian actor would have gotten a job. Again, this is not an abstract philosophical question for the people whose actual ability to make a living is at stake. And again, it's not about any one movie, it's about the cumulative pattern. It happens with many movie characters who are based on Asian characters in the source material or on Asian people in real life -- and not just in cliched or stereotyped roles, so that excuse doesn't wash in every case.

And of course it's not a no-win scenario -- that's just an excuse to pretend it's an insoluble problem, and that's crap. It can be solved by writing better, more diverse, less stereotyped roles for Asian actors to play, and by being more willing to cast Asian actors in any roles, whether they're written as specifically Asian or not. TV has shown it can be done, with actors like Kristin Kreuk, John Cho, Ming-Na Wen, B.D. Wong, and others. But as usual, movies lag way behind TV when it comes to social progress.

So if they'd made the Ancient One an Asian Woman, you wouldn't be complaining?

 

[Christopher]

So if they'd made the Ancient One an Asian Woman, you wouldn't be complaining?

How many times do I have to repeat that it's not about a single movie, but a systemic pattern of exclusion in the industry? An individual case wouldn't be such a big problem if the larger pattern didn't exist. If there were already enough opportunities in Hollywood for Asian-American actors to get prominent roles and good representation, then losing out on a single role wouldn't be such a big deal, because there would still be plenty of others. But there aren't. There are so few good opportunities being extended to Asian-American actors in the feature industry that any lost opportunity is a problem. Missing one lunch is a much huger problem if you're starving than it is if you're well-fed. The problem is the larger context, not the individual case. But the only way to fix the larger problem is if more individual movies start creating opportunities.

 

[tomalak301]

I watched the third episode last night and I wish the fight scenes were better. I mean this guy has an iron fist and it doesn't seem like he uses it very much. Also, for a show that has a lot of kung fu elements, this is nowhere near as compelling as Daredevil. In fact, the only fight I've liked so far was the one between Colleen and the big guy in that prize-fight.

 

[Timelord79 (he/him)]

I watched the third episode last night and I wish the fight scenes were better. I mean this guy has an iron fist and it doesn't seem like he uses it very much. Also, for a show that has a lot of kung fu elements, this is nowhere near as compelling as Daredevil. In fact, the only fight I've liked so far was the one between Colleen and the big guy in that prize-fight.

From what I've learned recently in the Defenders thread their was not much practice and training involved for the lead actor.
And the fist is a bit of a one trick pony every fight.
A bit like Iron Man's 360 degree laser weapon.
He can only use it once.
Then he needs a recharge?

 

[tomalak301]

From what I've learned recently in the Defenders thread their was not much practice and training involved for the lead actor.
And the fist is a bit of a one trick pony every fight.
A bit like Iron Man's 360 degree laser weapon.
He can only use it once.
Then he needs a recharge?

It does look like he has to build up the electricity so maybe it is a recharging thing. I thought it was something he always had and can be activated at whim.

 

[tenmei]

He has to be able to focus to get the chi channeled enough - which is why he doesn't use it very much in the Iron Fist series, they even explicitly state that this is why it's not really used in the first couple of episodes within the episodes themselves.

 

[tomalak301]

He has to be able to focus to get the chi channeled enough - which is why he doesn't use it very much in the Iron Fist series, they even explicitly state that this is why it's not really used in the first couple of episodes within the episodes themselves.

Yeah the conversation with the doctor in Episode 2, but now that he figured it out, maybe I'm still a little confused about how it's used. this clears things up a little.

 

[tenmei]

I figured it was just the same, but much easier for him to do when he isn't under the influence of the drugs, the comics have been reasonably consistent with the idea that it isn't something he can do at the drop of a hat and the current run has even emphasised this with him having to rediscover how to focus his chi - at least, not since the first Marvel Comics Presents issues, where he used to pull out the Iron Fist in virtually every fight.

 

[Anwar]

I watched the third episode last night and I wish the fight scenes were better. I mean this guy has an iron fist and it doesn't seem like he uses it very much. Also, for a show that has a lot of kung fu elements, this is nowhere near as compelling as Daredevil. In fact, the only fight I've liked so far was the one between Colleen and the big guy in that prize-fight.

It's explained later that he really can't use the Iron Fist all the time and needs to be focused and stuff to do it. He can't focus that well in close range combat. Plus, in Daredevil he wears a mask so they can sub in a stunt double easily but since Danny doesn't wear a mask they can't. The actor wasn't given any time to train for this.

Also, by the time they got to Iron Fist they'd run out of budget. The Netflix shows all had one "reservoir" they'd tap into, with a separate amount set aside for Defenders. By the time they got to Iron Fist the other shows had eaten up most of their cash.

 

[tomalak301]

Also, by the time they got to Iron Fist they'd run out of budget. The Netflix shows all had one "reservoir" they'd tap into, with a separate amount set aside for Defenders. By the time they got to Iron Fist the other shows had eaten up most of their cash.

So each show didn't have their own budget. That's a bummer. It's really showing on this show, and I wonder what it would have been like with the Daredevil type of fight choreography.

 

[Skywalker]

Yeah, all five shows shared a $200 million budget, and since Iron Fist came last out of the solo series, it got the short end of the stick. Hopefully now that they're all into their second (or third) seasons and most of the shows are fairly popular, their budgets will increase. Filming in NYC isn't cheap.

As for the Iron Fist's unreliability, I chalk it up to Danny's inexperience. He's only very recently become the Iron Fist and is still figuring out how to control it, and still learning what exactly it can do.