Intentions behind Archer?

Discussion in 'Star Trek: Enterprise' started by suarezguy, Aug 31, 2021.

  1. Charles Phipps

    Charles Phipps Commodore Commodore

    Joined:
    Sep 17, 2011
    I disagree as the context would be that Kirk would have a joke as an incredible ladies man in-universe even if it is grossly exaggerated and untrue compared to the serial monogamist he was in Starfleet. As we know from the Roddenberry novelization, the series is in-universe television and greatly distorted the reputation of the crew as well as their adventures.
     
    fireproof78 likes this.
  2. Phoenix219

    Phoenix219 Commodore Commodore

    Joined:
    Feb 2, 2016
    I've never bought Rodenberry's explanation, and its definitely not canon, as later series have directly referenced the 60s show directly (like DS9 and ENT). Respectfully disagree..... it wasn't directed at Kirk, but rather confirming to her superior officer that she has fulfilled her requirements, which I assume is an agreement with any Deltan entering Starfleet..... Don't know why he would have that reputation so early on? The missions (mostly classified) would have just ended, and he was a "book with legs" at the academy. Its not like most of his liaisons, real or imagined, would have been public knowledge.
     
  3. oldtrekkie

    oldtrekkie Captain Red Shirt

    Joined:
    Jul 3, 2021
    Kelvin Kirk hits on everything that moves.
     
  4. Phoenix219

    Phoenix219 Commodore Commodore

    Joined:
    Feb 2, 2016
    If anything was an in-universe production of TOS, its those Kelvin movies..... that would actually explain a whole lot.....including taking creative liberties with the source material.
     
    Phaser Two likes this.
  5. JaxsBrokenHeart

    JaxsBrokenHeart Lieutenant Commander Red Shirt

    Joined:
    May 20, 2011
    Star Trek Beyond excepted, a lot of the Kelvin Kirk is based on the caricatured pop culture version of the original, exaggerated ladies man tendencies included.
     
    dupersuper and Phoenix219 like this.
  6. Kor

    Kor Fleet Admiral Admiral

    Joined:
    Jul 31, 2001
    Location:
    My mansion on Qo'noS
    That was Roddenberry's shoehorned-in attempt to distance himself from the TV show years after the fact, as part of his re-imagining of the Trek universe for the big screen. And novels aren't "cannnon." There were other daft notions in the TMP novelization that (thankfully) never made it into cinematic or televised Trek.

    Roddenberry's attempt to retcon away TOS as some kind of exaggerated in-universe fictional portrayal could work if TMP was considered its own self-contained continuity, and if all the following Trek productions had been along the same lines as TMP, under Roddenberry's tight control. But that's not the direction that the franchise went. TWOK came along and was a direct sequel to a TOS episode. The scenery-chewing theatricality and melodrama of TWOK were quite at odds with TMP, but TWOK was a fitting thematic follow-up to the swashbuckling, larger-than-life heroics of the series.

    Kor
     
  7. Charles Phipps

    Charles Phipps Commodore Commodore

    Joined:
    Sep 17, 2011
    I think that overstates things. Roddenberry didn't dismiss the television series, he dismissed the idea they happened exactly as on screen with cardboard sets.
     
    fireproof78 likes this.
  8. fireproof78

    fireproof78 Fleet Admiral Admiral

    Joined:
    Apr 11, 2014
    Location:
    fireproof78
    And makes for a very interesting character to boot, but that's off topic ;)
    Indeed, which is why the holding on to TOS (or any other series for that matter) as occurring literally is not always helpful. If there is a discontinuity, it's due to the storyteller not having all the information. It's more enjoyable to treat the TOS as presented as dramatic recreations and realize that not all events may have occurred 100% as presented. Otherwise, Kirk threatening to spank a visiting head of state might seem rather undiplomatic.
     
    Charles Phipps likes this.
  9. dupersuper

    dupersuper Commodore Commodore

    Joined:
    Jul 24, 2020
    Plus 2 years of TAS and 6 movies...

    The point would be unless/until you die of something else, you wouldn't age.
     
  10. Phoenix219

    Phoenix219 Commodore Commodore

    Joined:
    Feb 2, 2016
    But you wouldn't gain new memories. Thats not an immortality that I would want. But as a back up before a dangerous mission? Why not. Jump beam the corpse back into its old pattern and for the transportee, it would be like "why am I back on the ship? Did the transporter break?"
     
  11. dupersuper

    dupersuper Commodore Commodore

    Joined:
    Jul 24, 2020
    Not according to Unnatural Selection. When they de-aged Pulaski she remembered everything.
     
  12. Phoenix219

    Phoenix219 Commodore Commodore

    Joined:
    Feb 2, 2016
    And I have always had a huge problem with that. I do believe that in other cases, it was the opposite, but I can't remember off the top of my head. Either way, I guess there could be a difference between filtering DNA or whatever nonsense they were using, and actually beaming back into your exact old pattern.
     
  13. oldtrekkie

    oldtrekkie Captain Red Shirt

    Joined:
    Jul 3, 2021
    Whether people are aged or de-aged by the transporter they always retain all their memories.
     
  14. Mytran

    Mytran Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

    Joined:
    Aug 5, 2009
    Location:
    North Wales
    I think the only exception is TNG's Lonely Among Us where Picard is de-aged by an hour or two, explained as them using an earlier "Picard pattern".
    This would conflict with TAS's The Lorelai Signal where the crew's earlier patterns were used to restore our aging heroes' youth and vigour, but they all seemed to retain their memories.
    I suppose the actions Picard took in Lonely Among Us were said to be unusual, perhaps justifying the difference?
     
    oldtrekkie likes this.
  15. WarpTenLizard

    WarpTenLizard Captain Captain

    Joined:
    Mar 7, 2015
    Location:
    Planet Spaceball
    Oh come now, I'm sure he was doing the breast that he could.
     
  16. Starkers

    Starkers Admiral Admiral

    Joined:
    Apr 22, 2001
    Location:
    Dead World
    I remember when I first read up on the characters that Travis and Hoshi seemed the most interesting; the youngest member of the crew who's been further into space than anyone else, and the crewmember terrified of space travel, but those character traits were soon forgotten which is a shame, particularly with Travis. An interesting dynamic would have been to have Travis as first officer because he's logged more hours in space than the rest of the crew put together.

    You'd think with Travis they might have learned from Neelix, having a character who's knowledgeable about the region of space they're traversing is one thing, but eventually you pass beyond the sphere of their knowledge and experience and you have to rebrand them as the cook.
     
  17. Mr. Laser Beam

    Mr. Laser Beam Fleet Admiral Admiral

    Joined:
    May 10, 2005
    Location:
    The visitor's bullpen
    Exactly.

    Ilia's vow of celibacy had absolutely nothing to do with Kirk personally. It's simply because she's Deltan. And since everyone knows that Deltans are hyper-sexualized, any Deltan in Starfleet would have to take extra precautions. That's the only meaning behind that scene.

    True, Ilia did joke about it a bit ("I would never take advantage of a sexually immature species") - but that was directed at Decker, not Kirk. And she only said that because Decker was a former lover.