Insurrection is a good film

Discussion in 'Star Trek Movies I-X' started by ConRefit79, Jan 1, 2020.

  1. Vger23

    Vger23 Vice Admiral Admiral

    Joined:
    Apr 19, 2014
    Location:
    Enterprise bowling alley
    Seems like precisely the same approach Starfleet took ~100 years earlier with Pike and the original Enterprise, though. So, even though it certainly seems weird, it may actually be Starfleet policy.
     
    NCC-73515 and fireproof78 like this.
  2. Damian

    Damian Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

    Joined:
    Nov 2, 2017
    Location:
    United States
    And the Enterprise exploring during the Cardassian Wars in the early part of TNG.

    Some novels were written that did have the Enterprise engaged in missions and battles during the War. And I never thought, despite what we saw in Insurrection, that the Enterprise was not engaged in the war. It was the flagship of the Federation. It's reasonable to think at times it would indeed be involved with the war, and at other times other missions important to Starfleet and the Federation. Even during wartime life has to go on.

    I just figured during the time of Insurrection the Enterprise was on missions away from the frontlines for a period of time. Obviously the Ba'ku mission was not a sanctioned mission so I don't really count that. But they were on their way to an archaeological dig. On the one had you wonder why the Enterprise would be sent on a dig during wartime. However, at the same time we know nothing about that dig. Perhaps there was something about that pertinent to the war somehow. Looking for something that might help them. We just don't know.

    And at the end Picard mentioned that he can't abandon the Federation to people who would destroy everything they stand for. That can have more than one meaning. It might not just mean the Federation Council. It could be a veiled reference to the war raging on in the quadrant, that he can't abandon the Federation to the Dominion but has to do his part.
     
  3. DonIago

    DonIago Vice Admiral Admiral

    Joined:
    Mar 22, 2001
    Location:
    Burlington, VT, USA
    A few major differences:
    1) The Na'vi were native to their planet; they weren't simply lucky enough to find it before anyone else.
    2) The Na'vi didn't flat-out refuse (through implication) human settlements on the planet.
    3) The Na'vi didn't kick humanity off the planet originally. The humans are interlopers, welcome (by some at least) or otherwise.
    4) INS complicates things when it becomes clear the Feds shouldn't even be involved because it's an internal matter between the Son'a and the Baku. Avatar has no such complication.
    5) I'm not sure how many Na'vi are on Pandora, but it's clearly more than six hundred.
     
  4. Vger23

    Vger23 Vice Admiral Admiral

    Joined:
    Apr 19, 2014
    Location:
    Enterprise bowling alley
    I liked Avatar even less than Insurrection. Avatar gets by on the novelty of its visuals for the most part.
     
    Qonundrum, Armus and BillJ like this.
  5. NCC-73515

    NCC-73515 Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

    Joined:
    Apr 18, 2019
    Location:
    SoCal
    And they are blue and have fancy animals. Doesn't mean the stories aren't similar, though.
     
  6. DonIago

    DonIago Vice Admiral Admiral

    Joined:
    Mar 22, 2001
    Location:
    Burlington, VT, USA
    Except that the things I pointed out are likely more relevant to where one's sympathies reside than whether they're colored blue or have fancy animals.
     
  7. suarezguy

    suarezguy Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

    Joined:
    Jun 9, 2008
    Location:
    Albuquerque, NM, USA
    It's been a while but I believe Neytiri initially was tempted to, considered killing Jake because he was a human/outsider and it was more implied that the Na'vi hadn't moved against the human settlement before because they thought they couldn't successfully do so. Again, I think that Picard (after having met and talked with the Ba'ku leadership) suggests the solution that the Son'a move to and live on the planet means that the Ba'ku would accept it happening, a lot more than anything else implies they wouldn't.

    It's not clear the Ba'ku did expel the Son'a, Ru'afo claims that (actually that they were exiled "to die slowly" ie just not being immortal) but it's at least possible to interpret that the Son'a weren't exiled but, after failing to take over, angrily left and were then surprised and then angry that they lost the youth effect as they did, were so angry they felt they had been exiled even though they were the ones who chose to leave.
    But that revelation happening as it did, being unclear about whether it really happened and if so how, and that the film doesn't seem to admit that that makes a difference, that the Ba'ku aren't so good and the Son'a do have claim to the planet and its benefits, are big flaws of the film.
     
  8. DonIago

    DonIago Vice Admiral Admiral

    Joined:
    Mar 22, 2001
    Location:
    Burlington, VT, USA
    I honestly can't recall whether it's only in the extended version of the film or not, but Sigourney Weaver's character had opened a school to teach the Na'vi English (presumably not unwillingly). My understanding is that originally things between the humans and Na'vi were at least somewhat peaceful, but that matters had deteriorated by the time Jake arrives.
    The fact is, if the Baku were willing to let the Son'a settle on the planet, that should have been explicitly stated by someone at some point. The closest I recall the film coming is when Dougherty summarily shoots Picard down saying that for some of the Son'a living on the planet wouldn't help them because they had already deteriorated too much.

    I'm not sure it matters whether the Son'a left voluntarily or otherwise, as to me the fact remains that any dispute between them and the Baku is an internal dispute as they're the same people, while humans and Na'vi are not (barring some sort of future plot twist). If the Enterprise showed up in Avatar, and if Pandora was a Federation planet, Picard likely would have sided with the Na'vi. On the other hand, if Pandora is recognized as being in "human (the humans of that universe, that is) space", then Picard's likely violating the PD if he interferes in the affairs of a foreign power.
     
  9. ConRefit79

    ConRefit79 Captain Captain

    Joined:
    Nov 18, 2008
    It shouldn't matter how many Ba'Ku were on the planet. Nor does it matter if they were not indigenous. They were there before the Federation existed. The planet was originally in the Klingon space. But regardless, they settled the planet first. By saying they were not indigenous is a valid excuse for forcefully relocating them, one could say the forced relocation of "Native Americans" is justified with such thinking. They originated from Asia. And before that, we all supposedly originated in Africa. The Federation was wrong.

    As for the Ba'Ku being beautiful and Sona being ugly, I'm sure there was a Trek episode where the ugly looking alien was good and the beautiful one was evil. Besides, the Sona were only physically ugly because they were so old and had used every trick the could fine to live that long.
     
  10. Smellmet

    Smellmet Commodore Commodore

    Joined:
    Aug 5, 2013
    Location:
    The Northern Shires of England.
    Either way, comparing avatar to insurrection is still comparing probably the most ambitious sci fi film ever made to one of the least.
     
  11. DonIago

    DonIago Vice Admiral Admiral

    Joined:
    Mar 22, 2001
    Location:
    Burlington, VT, USA
    ^Which is which? :p

    Personally I think the matter of whether the Baku are indigenous to the planet is relevant. The Baku weren't born to be immortal; they were just lucky enough to find it before anyone else, and then flipped the rest of the galaxy the bird and decided to keep it to themselves. I'm being intentionally hyperbolic here, but my point is that finding it first shouldn't give the Baku more right to the rings than anyone else...not when it's something that could relieve suffering. They are sitting on essentially and perhaps literally the cure for cancer.

    Heck, I think the strongest argument that I could make in terms of this being a good film is that it raises such moral debate. Except that some of the debatable points are due to things that the film likely would have addressed if it was a better film, so it's a bit of a paradox.
     
  12. The Overlord

    The Overlord Fleet Captain Fleet Captain

    Joined:
    Nov 26, 2010
    The problem with this movie is it does not know what it wants to be, a complex moral dilemma with no easy answers or a simple good vs. evil story where the Ba'ku are right and the Son'a are wrong. It starts as one and ends as the other, rather than being consistent throughout.
     
    suarezguy, Armus and DonIago like this.
  13. Armus

    Armus Commodore Commodore

    Joined:
    Feb 14, 2003
    Location:
    Massachusetts, USA
    Insurrection had a story nobody cared about, action scenes nobody remembered, and a climax nobody stayed awake to.
     
  14. NCC-73515

    NCC-73515 Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

    Joined:
    Apr 18, 2019
    Location:
    SoCal
    Except everyone who did
     
    PhotoBoy likes this.
  15. Armus

    Armus Commodore Commodore

    Joined:
    Feb 14, 2003
    Location:
    Massachusetts, USA
    As I've stated there are some things about the film that work, such as the first hour when Picard discovers the conspiracy. I think Michael Piller wanted to make an intelligent film in line with TNG. Unfortunately pesky actors and bad rewrites complicated things and we got a disappointing movie.
     
    Smellmet likes this.
  16. DonIago

    DonIago Vice Admiral Admiral

    Joined:
    Mar 22, 2001
    Location:
    Burlington, VT, USA
    In retrospect, it's pretty deeply disappointing that all of the TNG films ultimately end with Picard in a one-on-one fight with The Bad Guy.
     
    PhotoBoy, suarezguy and MrPicard like this.
  17. MrPicard

    MrPicard Jean-Luc's Loving Husband Premium Member

    Joined:
    Dec 29, 2019
    Location:
    Jean-Luc's Bed
    Especially considering the fact that he was never an action hero captain in the strict sense. Sure he could throw a punch when needed ("Starship Mine", etc), but it wasn't anything that was particularly central to his character. I also find it extremely frustrating that all the TNG movies resort to this sort of trope. One more reason why I'm not particularly fond of most of them.
     
    PhotoBoy and Armus like this.
  18. suarezguy

    suarezguy Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

    Joined:
    Jun 9, 2008
    Location:
    Albuquerque, NM, USA
    Avatar wasn't that ambitious when it had strong or even original special effects but the story was ripping off Pocahontas.

    Agreed, the second half becomes a lot worse for feeling way too good-vs.-evil (as well as being that but not really in an entertaining way).

    Except that Generations and FC are more two-on-one fights ;) But yes, still too repetitive, still too much four times in a row.
     
  19. NCC-73515

    NCC-73515 Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

    Joined:
    Apr 18, 2019
    Location:
    SoCal
    People who think so always forget the other half of the story: A wheelchair-bound guy gets to experience a new body where he can run again...
     
  20. DonIago

    DonIago Vice Admiral Admiral

    Joined:
    Mar 22, 2001
    Location:
    Burlington, VT, USA
    Thinking on that though, I wonder whether there's an uncomfortable subtextual suggestion that all physically disabled people inherently shouldn't be happy with the lives they have...and if so, is that problematic?