Insurrection is a good film

Discussion in 'Star Trek Movies I-X' started by ConRefit79, Jan 1, 2020.

  1. Armus

    Armus Commodore Commodore

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    I like the first hour, which plays well as a mystery and Starfleet coverup for Picard to fathom. There are some warm scenes between the regulars and Jerry Goldsmith's score is excellent. I don't think the film draws the audience in or builds up to anything remotely interesting in the end. The action scenes are pretty forgettable. Still it is one of the better TNG films in my view. Generations was deeply flawed, First Contact had a threadbare story, and Nemesis was a total disaster.
     
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  2. NCC-73515

    NCC-73515 Vice Admiral Admiral

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    Dougherty mentions the PD doesn't apply to the Ba'ku, and it's clear that the Federation and the Son'a are working together. The PD can't apply if you're partners on a joint project, I would say. The Federation can withdraw their support anytime, that's not interference.
     
  3. Peach Wookiee

    Peach Wookiee Cuddly Mod of Doom Moderator

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    -Brett-, I think you know that you don't call someone that. You are warned for trolling. Comments to PM, please.
     
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  4. ConRefit79

    ConRefit79 Captain Captain

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    I’m surprised no one has brought up when Worf’s human brother violates the PD to transfer an endangered people. They were pre-warp. And it appears the Feds believed the Ba’Ku were a pre-warp civilization at the beginning.

    And as for helping people, there were only 600 Ba’Ku in a single village. The Feds could have set up a settlement on the other side of the planet to help its citizens. The only reason given For the urgency to move the was some of the Sona wouldn’t last long enough to reverse the damage.
     
  5. DonIago

    DonIago Vice Admiral Admiral

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    No, Dougherty mentions early on that the PD doesn't apply because the Baku aren't indigenous to the planet, and consequently aren't pre-warp.

    Except the non-interference portions of the PD actually should apply because the Baku and Son'a are the same race; Dougherty just doesn't know that.
     
  6. Jeyl

    Jeyl Commodore Commodore

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    It was not.
     
  7. Lord Garth

    Lord Garth Vice Admiral Admiral

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    I always pegged Insurrection taking place just before Deep Space Nine: The Final Chapter (meaning the 10-episode arc). It doesn't really work taking place after the Dominion War because they say that Worf was assigned to Deep Space Nine.

    In "What You Leave Behind", the war ends, the peace treaty is signed, the crew celebrate, then Sisko is summoned to the fire caves and ends up with the Prophets. Very shortly thereafter Sisko says he'll be back. Then some of the crew stay on DS9, while others -- like Worf -- move on. Worf's leaving the station. The flashbacks with him looking back make that clear. He's not intending to come back. So Insurrection can't take place after "What You Leave Behind" if Worf is still assigned to Deep Space Nine and it can't take place during "What You Leave Behind" because there's no time for it to take place. It has to take place before "Penumbra".

    When Riker mentions Dominion Negotiations and Picard says "If we have to put out one more brush fire", that's Michael Piller making assumptions about the seventh season of DS9 when he wrote the script that turned out not to be the case. The movie came out in December 1998. At the latest, the script must've been finished around early-1998 when DS9 was finishing its sixth season. It's just a case of simply not staying on top of DS9's developments and not changing the lines to sync up with what's going on.

    You'll notice that Ru'afo refers the Borg, Cardassians, and Dominion as if the last two are separate from each other, but they weren't. If your argument is that the Cardassians were no longer part of the Dominion by this point, then this is what I have to say to that: Cardassia fell at the end of the Dominion War. They weren't one of the Big Boys anymore. So why would Ru'afo refer to them in the present tense? Once again, this is just a case of sloppy writing.

    My complete take is: Insurrection happens, then the last 10 episodes of DS9, then Worf becomes an Ambassador, then he decides being an Ambassador isn't for him and returns to Starfleet, then Nemesis happens. Why would he be wearing a Starfleet Uniform while being an Ambassador for the Klingons? I don't think he would be. So he's not an Ambassador yet in Insurrection and he's no longer one in Nemesis.
     
    Last edited: Jan 5, 2020
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  8. NCC-73515

    NCC-73515 Vice Admiral Admiral

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    Riker's line made me think it's just after the war, why else would the Dominion negotiate? Worf could've wanted to visit his old friends between switching posts, and he was officially posted to DS9 until he became an ambassador (just after INS).

    There was a Cardassian war just before TNG.

    Worf being back on the E without explanation was just lazy, I think. They thought he has to be back and didn't know or care about contradictions with DS9. Maybe it's explained in the novel, I don't remember.
     
  9. Lord Garth

    Lord Garth Vice Admiral Admiral

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    True enough. But Ru'afo specifically refers to the "past 24 months". Ru'afo should've used the past participle tense instead of the present tense. If Ru'afo had said "they've harvested the scent of death on the Federation" instead of "they harvest the scent of death on the Federation", then it would work, IMO. Grungy, I'll admit it, but there we are.
     
  10. lurok

    lurok Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    INS just bad. But does have a few entertaining moments.
     
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  11. suarezguy

    suarezguy Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    It's an OK story idea, it has some good moments but I don't think it's a good story or film overall.

    A lot of people reject and bash the film because they don't like the Ba'ku and/or the idea of them being portrayed as in the right and the heroes helping them in the conflict. I don't dislike the Ba'ku and think the ethical conflict/dilemma drama is good, pretty well-done but the film otherwise is still bad.

    The main problems are that while it's OK, even good, for not every film to be super-highstakes the stakes and energy feel too low and also not really focused on and the film also isn't quite balanced enough in portraying the dilemma. Picard being attracted to Anij feels weak and cheapens the idea Picard would protect any group, the Ba'ku are just a little too annoyingly idolized (they're basically presented as better than 24th century Federation society, their community basically as paradise), and the Son'a treated too much as just the bad guys and without enough depth (for there to be kind of OTT but underwhelming action), there's a lot of clunky comic relief, maybe most important or just annoying it's unconvincing in that and it just says rather than shows that Riker was able to convince the authorities to stop the plan.
     
  12. DonIago

    DonIago Vice Admiral Admiral

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    I wonder how the film might have been received if the Baku were ugly but long-lived while the Son'a looked beautiful but were dying as a race. Would that make the Baku more sympathetic because the price of immortality was their physical appearance, or would it make them even less sympathetic because they're not only hogging the planet but they're hideous (by human standards) too?
     
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  13. Vger23

    Vger23 Vice Admiral Admiral

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    With great humility, I submit that there wasn't much that could have saved the film, barring a massive re-write.
     
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  14. King Bob!

    King Bob! The King of Kings Premium Member

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    Keeping Stewart and Spiner out of the creative process would've been a great start.
     
  15. suarezguy

    suarezguy Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    I think making the Son'a ugly and the Ba'ku as beautiful, a cheap and excessive way of trying to therefore portray the Ba'ku as relatively very positive, did backfire quite a lot.
     
  16. Vger23

    Vger23 Vice Admiral Admiral

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    Totally agreed....everyone got out of their swim-lanes with the later Trek movies, usually as a result of someone throwing their weight around as a condition of participation...and the results were often exactly what you'd expect.
     
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  17. suarezguy

    suarezguy Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    I do find it kind of amusing, also perplexing that the ethical dilemma and commentary & drama about it in Insurrection is pretty similar to that in Avatar and most of both the public and sci-fi fandom really embraced the latter film including completely siding with the Na'vi.
     
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  18. Smellmet

    Smellmet Commodore Commodore

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    Avatar was and still is the most visually spectacular film ever made. Star Trek Insurrection is a bland, instantly forgettable bore with sub par visual effects.
     
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  19. Damian

    Damian Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    I think you'll find some debate about that on another thread. For myself I always assumed the Dominion War was going on. The film was released during the early to mid 7th season of Deep Space Nine when the war was still raging and I just assumed the film took place at the time it was released. Berman era Trek was pretty consistent in that the time periods corresponded across the shows and movies (within a few weeks at most). Nowadays we're used to time periods being variable but that just wasn't done during the Berman era. If the movie was released during the 7th season of DS9 it's probably safe to assume that's when Insurrection took place. To be honest until someone posted the thread I never realized there was a debate about that. They even mentioned Dominion negotiations going on--which I thought was their brief nod to the war as on Deep Space Nine we do know that negotiations were taking place (which isn't all that unusual even during war time).

    I do too. Now I always say it's 4/4 for me among the TNG films and 12/13 overall, but that being said that doesn't mean I hated it. I liked all the Trek films at least to some degree. Insurrection probably would have fit better in some ways in the TV series. But I enjoyed it well enough which is the first thing I judge any film by.

    Things I loved about this film--the music (of course) and I always say it had some of the most beautiful cinematography of all the films.

    And I read some complaints about the story itself, about 600 mostly European looking aliens facing peril. But I don't know, I just never looked at it that way. They were trying to draw parallels to the American Indians being driven off their land. Now maybe the filmmakers made the lazy choice in how the aliens appeared but I look a bit deeper than that. And Picard's impassioned speech about when is it wrong is classic Picard. And I know there has been some debate about would you move 600 people for the benefit of the entire Federation (ignoring how the aliens appear which is irrelevant to the question really)--it does lead to a debate which is what Star Trek does well. It does make you ask questions. So in that sense it's classic Star Trek if it makes you ask questions.

    Then they add another layer with the Son'a being the children of the Ba'ku.

    I liked the characters as well. And one thing I loved.....no Earth for a change.

    And it was competently made. It'd probably be 13/13 but Star Trek V's special effects are so under par compared to other Trek films that drags TFF down for me. Insurrection's special effects, while not awe inspiring, were competently done. And, well, the cinematography. Insurrection ranks near the top of the Trek films at least in that one area.

    It has it's flaws for sure. I wish there was a bit more acknowledgement of the Dominion War other than a throwaway line. And while I get they wanted to make a film that did not require film goers to be DS9 watchers I always thought they could have still done a Dominion War film that did not require any foreknowledge of the war.

    At the time it was released I was a bit more bothered by the lack of acknowledgment of the Dominion War outside one or two lines---but as time passes and we get further away from when the film was released I find that bothers me less and less.
     
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  20. Armus

    Armus Commodore Commodore

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    DS9 fought a life and death struggle with the Dominion for the Alpha Quandrant while the TNG crew got to explore the unknown in Insurrection. That never seemed right.