Instead of the evil, red-eyed Dukat in S7

[Photon]

Would you have preferred a true changed Dukat, for the overall good of Cardassia-much like Damar.

Perhaps a slow, revelation that he's been on the wrong side of things (maybe after some talks w/Damar) and wants to now help the allies.

Or even this............he lands back on Cardassia after the Dominion slaughters millions, he realizes that he is the cause and does some great anti-dominion act that takes his life but makes him feel better as he enters Cardassian afterlife

 

[flemm]

^I like the basic concept of Dukat allying himself with a group of "fallen angel," Lucifer-like rebel prophets, becoming a rival Emissary and leading a bajoran religious sect that defies the mainstream dogma regarding the Prophets.

I don't think we needed red eyes and force grips, though. The Pagh Wraiths themselves needed more development and some of the substantive criticisms of the Prophets that we see in Covenant needed to be developed more consistently. I also think that Dukat's activities could have been linked directly to the Dominion's war effort.

Damar's redemptive arc works perfectly, so I don't see any reason to replace him with Dukat or give Dukat a parallel storyline.

Not that it would have been impossible to write a good redemptive arc for Dukat, but for that to happen he would have to recognize that he had been in the wrong all along. That is something that does not come easy for Dukat. The type of fantasy-fulfillment we see in Covenant strikes me as far more in-character for him.

 

[Anwar]

I don't have a problem with Dukat after "Waltz", but if they wanted to do something that was less likely to p*ss off the dummies who thought he wasn't evil then they should've just had him decide that they had to get rid of the Prophets to win and his decision to ally with the Pah-Wraiths was solely to get rid of the Prophets and win the war for Cardassia.

Then, when he's revived as their Anti-Emissary he's delighted at this turn of events but then killed soon afterwards so it doesn't matter.

 

[TerokNor]

I don´t like Dukats storyline with the Pagh Wraiths very much, however still I would not have wanted to give him a similiar arc as Damar had, that would have given him the hero-role.
Damars story arc I liked well (besides how he was killed before knowing that the war has endet and not remembered at all by the other characters in the show)...
I think maybe I would have given Dukat a storyline where he does get punished by a tribunal (on Bajor or Earth or so) in he end and where we also see his reaction to Damars rebellion and the outcome...and I would have liked for Damar to see it as well.
That Dukat gets psychological ill, hears voices and such I found an interessting development, would have stayed with this, maybe he would have gotten a softer punishment like life-long imprisonment instead of death (on Bajor I think they have death punishment too right?)...anyway... in the end we would have seen im, crazy old Dukat in a prison or closed psychatry or something. Maybe a picture where Sisko and Damar stand there looking at him in the end. The "old Cardassia" and Sisko breaks the "bond" that Dukat had made with him and walks of with Damar, the "new Cardassia", (who still feels a bond to Dukat no matter what and probably would continue visiting him now and then)... and the rebuilding can beginn. What you think?

TerokNor

 

[Photon]

I don´t like Dukats storyline with the Pagh Wraiths very much, however still I would not have wanted to give him a similiar arc as Damar had, that would have given him the hero-role.
Damars story arc I liked well (besides how he was killed before knowing that the war has endet and not remembered at all by the other characters in the show)...
I think maybe I would have given Dukat a storyline where he does get punished by a tribunal (on Bajor or Earth or so) in he end and where we also see his reaction to Damars rebellion and the outcome...and I would have liked for Damar to see it as well.
That Dukat gets psychological ill, hears voices and such I found an interessting development, would have stayed with this, maybe he would have gotten a softer punishment like life-long imprisonment instead of death (on Bajor I think they have death punishment too right?)...anyway... in the end we would have seen im, crazy old Dukat in a prison or closed psychatry or something. Maybe a picture where Sisko and Damar stand there looking at him in the end. The "old Cardassia" and Sisko breaks the "bond" that Dukat had made with him and walks of with Damar, the "new Cardassia", (who still feels a bond to Dukat no matter what and probably would continue visiting him now and then)... and the rebuilding can beginn. What you think?

TerokNor

+1

 

[sonak]

the pah-wraith storyline and Dukat's involvement in it was kind of a ridiculous mess. (Come on- fallen "anti-prophets" being led by the "anti-messiah?" this was just embarrassing).

Dukat was a much more nuanced, layered character before seasons 6-7 and yes it would've been better having him be the redeemed resistance leader than the comparatively much more minor character Damar.

From what I've read, Dukat was too nuanced for Behr and Wolfe though, so they stripped away his complexity and left him a cardboard-cutout villain.

 

[Nerys Ghemor]

As evil as Dukat was (and he was always evil), I think the only way to have a convincing redemption story would be for him to have a MAJOR experience that reshaped his entire way of thinking. A kind of sci-fi Road to Damascus type incident.

St. Paul, as you might remember, was a man hellbent on killing Christians, prior to his experience on the road to Damascus. And though the Bible only hints at it, he had to REALLY work to overcome the disgust and distrust that came with his bloody past.

It would be similar for a reformed Dukat...he would still be hated and distrusted by many, and would have to work to overcome that--but he would have to truly feel the shame of his past actions and attitudes. He would be a very, very changed, humble man. He'd have to be, for it to be even remotely convincing.

Honestly, though, the event it would take to do this would have to be so traumatic that I would have a hard time seeing him in a leadership role afterwards. In an advisory one, though...possible.

 

[Anwar]

Yep, the show clearly made Dukat too much of an egomaniac for any real "redemption" story.

Like I said, just have him kissing up to the Pah Wraiths simply because he thinks he can use them to eliminate the Prophets fits his character MUCH better. Then it all blows up in his face when he realizes he's bitten off more than he can chew.

 

[Nerys Ghemor]

Yep, the show clearly made Dukat too much of an egomaniac for any real "redemption" story.

The one moment where it could've been done would be in the minutes following Ziyal's death. But he would have to be completely broken and rebuilt, to allow that to happen. And I think most likely, such a man would only function in an advisory capacity, not as a great resistance leader, after being shattered in that way, and everything about his identity and personality having to be reconstructed.

Like I said, just have him kissing up to the Pah Wraiths simply because he thinks he can use them to eliminate the Prophets fits his character MUCH better. Then it all blows up in his face when he realizes he's bitten off more than he can chew.

That's about what I think of the Pah-Wraith plot...he tried to use them but ended up becoming the tool instead. He sold his soul and lost his free will as a result. Kind of fitting justice for an egomaniac...

 

[TerokNor]

Oh and a small addition: Many people say Damar had to die to make his circle complete and mostly because of murdering Ziyal.
If Dukat would have a trial, I would have had Damar there as well and after Dukat got sentenced I would have Damar stand up and announce that he wants to stand trial for killing this mans daughter. That would have made for many interresting dynamics with Dukat, but also with the rest. Normally they would not put the leader of cardassia who helped defeat the Dominion on trial, but when he wants it? He probbably would get a milder sentence as well than whats usual for murder, and he would first have to carry it out when cardassia is more on the legs again and others can lead it, but he would one day and I think with the courage to stand up puplicaly and to go on trial and such his arc would be completed too and better than with just dying the way he did. We also could have had some scenes that were missing, like with Garak, Kira and him concerning Ziyals death.
Yep, for my taste that would have been a great ending, of course that would have needed some more episodes, probably season 8 and we would have seen some more of after war cardassia an such a well.
How you find this idea?

TerokNor

 

[Photon]

Oh and a small addition: Many people say Damar had to die to make his circle complete and mostly because of murdering Ziyal.
If Dukat would have a trial, I would have had Damar there as well and after Dukat got sentenced I would have Damar stand up and announce that he wants to stand trial for killing this mans daughter. That would have made for many interresting dynamics with Dukat, but also with the rest. Normally they would not put the leader of cardassia who helped defeat the Dominion on trial, but when he wants it? He probbably would get a milder sentence as well than whats usual for murder, and he would first have to carry it out when cardassia is more on the legs again and others can lead it, but he would one day and I think with the courage to stand up puplicaly and to go on trial and such his arc would be completed too and better than with just dying the way he did. We also could have had some scenes that were missing, like with Garak, Kira and him concerning Ziyals death.
Yep, for my taste that would have been a great ending, of course that would have needed some more episodes, probably season 8 and we would have seen some more of after war cardassia an such a well.
How you find this idea?

TerokNor

The blaming of Sisko for her death was total writing BS. Sisko had been gone for months and was on the Defiant when she died. Bunch of crap, that is

 

[Keith1701]

Would you have preferred a true changed Dukat, for the overall good of Cardassia-much like Damar.

Perhaps a slow, revelation that he's been on the wrong side of things (maybe after some talks w/Damar) and wants to now help the allies.

Or even this............he lands back on Cardassia after the Dominion slaughters millions, he realizes that he is the cause and does some great anti-dominion act that takes his life but makes him feel better as he enters Cardassian afterlife

Good Points......

 

[Navaros]

Yep, the show clearly made Dukat too much of an egomaniac for any real "redemption" story.

What's wrong with being an egomaniac? That may be an undesirable trait, but it's not evil. Nothing is morally wrong with Dukat being an egomaniac. There is no need to be "redeemed" from it since it isn't wrong in the first place.

As for the Photon's question, yes, instead of ruining Dukat's character, it certainly would have been better to have Dukat ally with the Sisko and try to remove the Dominion from Cardassia's space that way.

I wouldn't have Dukat realize that he was wrong about anything, though. Maybe he could see the decision to ally with the Dominion as a little wrong because it caused Cardassia unexpected harm, but it shouldn't go beyond that. Instead, I'd have Sisko and Kira realize that they were wrong for scapegoating Dukat for things that weren't his fault, and also for not giving him the credit he rightly deserves for treating Bajorans well and improving their lives after he took over the administration.

 

[Anwar]

What's wrong with being an egomaniac?

Being an egomaniac.

 

[Temis the Vorta]

They should have just kept the character, and the character arc, and brought the arc to its natural conclusion. They were on the right track, why frak it all up?

Character: Dukat is a study in hypocrisy and self-justification. He is an utterly selfish egotist, and his eternal goal is to increase his own glory and power. He conflates this with the glory and power of Cardassia, which is of course transparent bullshit that is obvious to everyone but himself.

Character arc: Dukat continually overestimates his ability to scheme his way into power, and use powerful allies as stepping stones to power. He tried to manipulate Starfleet but it didn't work out. He bungled badly with the Dominion and found himself out on his ass.

But his egotism propels him to try ever more risky, improbable and overreaching schemes, so his next attempt at manipulating a dangerous and powerful ally should be the paghwraiths. Not as a follower, but as his same old insanely overconfident self. And since his behavior was always going to lead to destruction, that's exactly where it all goes.

What's wrong with being an egomaniac? That may be an undesirable trait, but it's not evil.

Egomaniacs by definition are out of touch with reality. A healthy ego can be strong, but in touch with reality. (The "mania" part is what implies mental illness.) If Dukat had a healthy ego, he'd have been far more wary of an alliance with the Dominion, much less the paghwraiths, and would not have been on the path to destruction.

Damar's redemptive arc works perfectly, so I don't see any reason to replace him with Dukat or give Dukat a parallel storyline.

We definitely shouldn't disturb Damar's part of the story, since it worked so well. But they could be allies, with Damar keeping the Dominion busy while Dukat runs off to try to manipulate the paghwraiths into helping him do an end-run around both Starfleet and the Dominion. What a coup that would have been!