"Inalienable human rights"

[Nyotarules]

Different breeds of dogs interbreed with ease. Different races of humans do as well. This does not pose any counterargument to the use of these very practical terms.

And claiming a black man is defined by his skin color sounds to me much worse than accepting that he is the member of a group with a distinct phenotype overall...

Timo Saloniemi

There are no different 'races' of humans. Homo sapiens are divided by hair colour, eye colour and skin colour that is it. The cultural/ethnic differences chart that up to our ancestors living on different parts of the planet where migration was difficult or impossible.

 

[Timo]

...Why not call those differences "race" is the part I don't get. It's a convenient word that has no other, competing meaning. (Okay, save for perhaps implying that there's a race on between subsections of humanity, but that's unlikely to be how the word in general is read.)

Mankind is not a random blend of characteristics. It's a specific collection of specific collections of characteristics. This plays a key role in our choice of sex partners if nothing else. A few centuries of cheap global travel from now, things might be different, but that would just mean that races have disappeared, not that they never existed.

Timo Saloniemi

 

[Tallguy]

The "inalienable human rights" exchange is one of the really clunky lines in TUC. They knew what they wanted the line to do. But they had no good way to actually show it. It's right up there with Burke and Samno getting a scene that said "and now two Starfleet guys will rattle off three or four ridiculously stereotypical racist remarks."

What bugs me about TUC is that Kirk and company's objection to Klingons is supposedly because the Klingons are a different species and the humans are racist. NOT because the Klingons are an expansive and aggressive culture that organizes conquered worlds into slave labor camps and Our Heroes don't care WHAT race they are.

 

[Nyotarules]

...Why not call those differences "race" is the part I don't get. It's a convenient word that has no other, competing meaning. (Okay, save for perhaps implying that there's a race on between subsections of humanity, but that's unlikely to be how the word in general is read.)

Mankind is not a random blend of characteristics. It's a specific collection of specific collections of characteristics. This plays a key role in our choice of sex partners if nothing else. A few centuries of cheap global travel from now, things might be different, but that would just mean that races have disappeared, not that they never existed.

Timo Saloniemi

Why would you want to call someone of the same species as yourself a different 'race' based on skin colour when you don't do it for any other physical feature?

 

[Laura Cynthia Chambers]

And what? The only reason Spock is accepted/tolerated is because half of him is Human?

Yeah, so their problem ought to be bias based on what they've seen and heard of Klingons, not just how funny they supposedly look. That does happen now with people groups separated for various reasons (religion, color, political leanings, etc.)

All I really wanted to know was, "why does that term exist anymore? could it be a mis-translation?"

 

[Nyotarules]

What bugs me about TUC is that Kirk and company's objection to Klingons is supposedly because the Klingons are a different species and the humans are racist. NOT because the Klingons are an expansive and aggressive culture that organizes conquered worlds into slave labor camps and Our Heroes don't care WHAT race they are.

And what? The only reason Spock is accepted/tolerated is because half of him is Human?

Yeah, so their problem ought to be bias based on what they've seen and heard of Klingons, not just how funny they supposedly look. That does happen now with people groups separated for various reasons (religion, color, political leanings, etc.)

All I really wanted to know was, "why does that term exist anymore? could it be a mis-translation?"

The original scene was posted a while back, you find the context for the term there. Aztebur did not object to the word 'alienable' what makes you think she did? Her objection was to the entire phrase 'human rights' and the meaning behind it.

 

[Laura Cynthia Chambers]

Okay, but i still wonder why the Federation didn't remove the term to avoid confusion. Maybe she didn't get hung up on it, but some could sometime.

 

[Nyotarules]

Okay, but i still wonder why the Federation didn't remove the term to avoid confusion. Maybe she didn't get hung up on it, but some could sometime.

Cos the Federation script was written in 1991, it was a deliberate plot device.

 

[Timo]

Why would you want to call someone of the same species as yourself a different 'race' based on skin colour when you don't do it for any other physical feature?

Triple "Huh?" here. Of course I do it for all sorts of physical features. Supposedly everybody using the term does. And skin color is probably the least relevant definer of race overall, because extremely few races feature a discernible difference there.

I guess the "inalienable" bit is overdoing the joke here - the slap in the faces of the audience would have been far more effective if the common phrase "human rights" bit us back on our prejudices and narrowmindedness, rather than the convoluted "inalienable rights". But I can live with an overdone joke, as it lightens the tone of the scene somewhat.

Timo Saloniemi

 

[Tosk]

I took it to mean speak at all, insinuating most Klingons just grunt and growl.

The more I think about it, the more sure I am that you're right.

 

[LFT11501]

Okay, I get that the "Human" part made Azetbur mad. But "inalienable" does not mean "not for aliens". It means "unremovable". As in, no one can take away the fact that someone should be able to have/do/be something, whether or not they actually get the chance to have/do/be it.

I'm surprised the Federation language police hadn't excised that word in favor of a neutral sounding alternative long ago. http://www.thesaurus.com/browse/inalienable

Were they all speaking English or using the translator?

Maybe they had too much Romulan ale?

 

[LFT11501]

There is, but it doesn't restore those particular cuts. Which is a shame, because the dinner scene is one of the worst edited in the movie, choppy and all over the place. You can literally see where dialogue has been chopped out.

For the record, the full scene was thus:


GORKON
I give you a toast: the undiscovered country. The future.

SPOCK
HAMLET, act three, scene one.

GORKON
You have never experienced Shakespeare until you have read him in the original Klingon.

CHANG
"To be or not to be, that is the question" which preoccupies our people, Captain Kirk. We need BREATHING room...

KIRK
I beg your pardon?

KERLA
Captain Kirk, I thought Romulan ale was illegal.

KIRK
One of the advantages of being a thousand light years from Federation headquarters.

BONES
To you, Chancellor Gorkon: one of the architects of our future.

SCOTTY
Perhaps we are looking at something of that future here.

AZETBUR
Commander Spock, mindful of all your work behind the scenes, and despite the cordiality at this mess, I do not sense an acceptance of our people throughout your ship.

SPOCK
They're naturally wary, ma'am. We've been at war a long time.

UHURA
How do both sides overcome ingrained prejudice?

CHEKOV
Perhaps with a few small steps at a time. Like this one.

BONES
And perhaps with a large step or two. Like a peace treaty.

CHANG
Captain Kirk, are you willing to give up Starfleet?

SPOCK
(looks at Kirk)
I believe the Captain feels that Starfleet's mission has always been one of peace -

KIRK
(glares)
Far be it for me to dispute my first officer. Starfleet has always -

CHANG
Come now, Captain, this dinner is off the record: in space all warriors are cold warriors.

SCOTTY
We have never tried to --

KERLA
You hypocritically presume that your democratic system gives you a moral prerogative to force other cultures to conform to your politics.

BONES
That's not true...!

KERLA
No?

Uhura turns to the Klingon next to her - all tact.

UHURA
General, are YOU fond of Shakespeare?

He looks at her, his hands and mouth full of food. Ugh.
Chekov pursues -

CHEKOV
We do NOT impose democracy on others. We do believe that every planet has a sovereign claim to human rights.

AZETBUR
(spits)
"Human rights." Even the name is racist. The Federation is basically a "homo sapiens" only club...

CHANG
(amused)
Present company excepted, to be sure...

UHURA
Well, I suppose we're not perfect -

SCOTTY
(rising)
Don't let them put words in your mouth! I haven't served 30 years in the engine room of a starship to be accused of gunboat diplomacy!

KERLA
In any case, we know where this is leading: the annihilation of our culture. Klingons will replace those on the lowest rung of the Federation employment ladder, taking menial jobs and performing them for lower pay...

CHEKOV
That's economics, not racism -

UHURA
But you have to admit it adds up to the same thing.

BONES
Don't be naive, Commander -!

UHURA
Who you calling naive -?

Kirk stares sullenly down the table throughout this.

CHEKOV
We're explorers not diplomats!

BONES
Starfleet's killed an awful lot of natural phenomena in the name of "exploration"...

SCOTTY
We follow orders...

CHEKOV
Since when has THAT been an excuse? Diplomacy must resolve these -

SCOTTY
Right - leave it to the politicians to muck it up and leave us defenseless...!

A COUGH interrupts the fight. All eyes on Gorkon.
The Klingons conceal their amusement.

GORKON
(finally)
Well. I see we have a long way to go.

Reactions from Kirk and his officers.

I would've loved to see this version!

 

[Crazyewok]

I would've loved to see this version!

Me too.

And calls out the starfleet isn't military BS.

How can the k
Klingons trust starfleet when it can even admit what it is....

 

[velour]

I would've loved to see this version!

It seemed that the script writers made sure that everyone of the TOS actors had multiple lines for that scene. No one was left out of the action.


I am glad that the part of the dialogue where Uhuru, Chekov, Scotty and McCoy were arguing among themselves was not included in the movie. That kind of talk of self loathing would seem out of place in that setting with the Klingons there. It is the kind of talk that is more likely to happen in a college classroom, or perhaps Starfleet Academy.

GORKON
You have never experienced Shakespeare until you have read him in the original Klingon.

CHANG
"To be or not to be, that is the question" which preoccupies our people, Captain Kirk. We need BREATHING room...

KIRK
I beg your pardon?

KERLA
Captain Kirk, I thought Romulan ale was illegal.

KIRK
One of the advantages of being a thousand light years from Federation headquarters.

BONES
To you, Chancellor Gorkon: one of the architects of our future.

SCOTTY
Perhaps we are looking at something of that future here.

AZETBUR
Commander Spock, mindful of all your work behind the scenes, and despite the cordiality at this mess, I do not sense an acceptance of our people throughout your ship.

SPOCK
They're naturally wary, ma'am. We've been at war a long time.

UHURA
How do both sides overcome ingrained prejudice?

CHEKOV
Perhaps with a few small steps at a time. Like this one.

BONES
And perhaps with a large step or two. Like a peace treaty.

CHANG
Captain Kirk, are you willing to give up Starfleet?

SPOCK
(looks at Kirk)
I believe the Captain feels that Starfleet's mission has always been one of peace -

KIRK
(glares)
Far be it for me to dispute my first officer. Starfleet has always -

CHANG
Come now, Captain, this dinner is off the record: in space all warriors are cold warriors.

SCOTTY
We have never tried to --

KERLA
You hypocritically presume that your democratic system gives you a moral prerogative to force other cultures to conform to your politics.

BONES
That's not true...!

KERLA
No?

Uhura turns to the Klingon next to her - all tact.

UHURA
General, are YOU fond of Shakespeare?

He looks at her, his hands and mouth full of food. Ugh.
Chekov pursues -

CHEKOV
We do NOT impose democracy on others. We do believe that every planet has a sovereign claim to human rights.

AZETBUR
(spits)
"Human rights." Even the name is racist. The Federation is basically a "homo sapiens" only club...

CHANG
(amused)
Present company excepted, to be sure...

UHURA
Well, I suppose we're not perfect -

SCOTTY
(rising)
Don't let them put words in your mouth! I haven't served 30 years in the engine room of a starship to be accused of gunboat diplomacy!

KERLA
In any case, we know where this is leading: the annihilation of our culture. Klingons will replace those on the lowest rung of the Federation employment ladder, taking menial jobs and performing them for lower pay...

CHEKOV
That's economics, not racism -

UHURA
But you have to admit it adds up to the same thing.

BONES
Don't be naive, Commander -!

UHURA
Who you calling naive -?

Kirk stares sullenly down the table throughout this.

CHEKOV
We're explorers not diplomats!

BONES
Starfleet's killed an awful lot of natural phenomena in the name of "exploration"...

SCOTTY
We follow orders...

CHEKOV
Since when has THAT been an excuse? Diplomacy must resolve these -

SCOTTY
Right - leave it to the politicians to muck it up and leave us defenseless...!

A COUGH interrupts the fight. All eyes on Gorkon.
The Klingons conceal their amusement.

GORKON
(finally)
Well. I see we have a long way to go.

Reactions from Kirk and his officers.

I have always wondered why the writers depicted the Klingons as being enamored with Shakespeare. The Klingons are suppose to be a xenophobic people that are extremely proud of their own culture and heritage. Yet they have an admiration for the literary work of an alien, a human, a species that is an enemy of the Klingons.
And why would they admit it to their human adversaries?

There was that line in the scene where Kerla makes the point, "In any case, we know where this is leading: the annihilation of our culture." The Klingons seemed to be paranoid about alien assaults against their culture. Yet they embrace Shakespeare.

 

[Nerys Myk]

I have always wondered why the writers depicted the Klingons as being enamored with Shakespeare.

I assume they thought the ideas presented in Shakespeare's plays would appeal to Klingons. Lear, Macbeth and few others come to mind.

 

[eyeresist]

Okay, but i still wonder why the Federation didn't remove the term to avoid confusion. Maybe she didn't get hung up on it, but some could sometime.

Maybe you were confused by an unfamiliar word, but Nick Meyer, the actors and most of the viewers were clear that the word "inalienable" has nothing to do with "aliens".
Further, it's clear in the scene that the word "inalienable" is not the issue. "Human rights" is the issue.

What bugs me about TUC is that Kirk and company's objection to Klingons is supposedly because the Klingons are a different species and the humans are racist. NOT because the Klingons are an expansive and aggressive culture that organizes conquered worlds into slave labor camps and Our Heroes don't care WHAT race they are.

In a time of crisis, these issues become conflated, and the threatening enemy comes to be seen as inherently vile. History as shown this mental pattern again and again. Our Heroes are only human, but they rise above prejudice (i.e. it's a dramatic arc), because they're heroes.

 

[Nerys Myk]

Further, it's clear in the scene that the word "inalienable" is not the issue. "Human rights" is the issue.

Yep

AZETBUR: Inalien... If only you could hear yourselves? 'Human rights.' Why the very name is racist. The Federation is no more than a 'homo sapiens' only club.

 

[Timo]

I have always wondered why the writers depicted the Klingons as being enamored with Shakespeare.

Well, the punchline of their joke is that Shakespeare originally wrote in Klingon. In the Star Trek universe, the Bard might well have been a Klingon. But here the Klingons seem to be saying that Earth has nothing to their culture: even their best author is only any good because he writes like a Klingon.

It's the perfect touch: a foreign joke that the heroes don't get, yet it's clear enough that they're the butt of it.

Timo Saloniemi

 

[eyeresist]

"in the original Klingon" - The Klingons were kind of representative of cold war Russians, and in TOS Chekov would claim various things were really invented by Russians. Apparently this was a thing Russians did at the time? So Klingons claiming Shakespeare is a sort of extension of that idea.

 

[Timo]

Apparently this was a thing Russians did at the time?

Everybody does that all the time. Just watch the Olympics opening show: Brazilians invented the aeroplane.

Which they did, of course, among others. "Invention" used to be ambiguous even a century ago, and after five centuries, nobody can really tell whether the guy, gal or committee that wrote Shakepeare's plays was even of human origin.

But I guess Russians claiming (or, often, correctly pointing out) that an invention was theirs is a meme of sorts from the past century. Americans doing the same fails to be a meme only because we're on the wrong side of the Iron Curtain to see it happen. And of course Hungarians invented everything in reality, but they're too humble to turn it into a meme.

Timo Saloniemi