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In Your Mind, Did Kirk and Spock Meet Before?

. . . I was thinking about Shatner's Academy book (which I haven't read), and trying to decide whether I liked the idea of those two meeting at the Academy. . . (I'll probably still read Shatner's book eventually, though, if only for curiosity's sake) . . .

If you have any respect for the characters of Kirk and Spock, don't read Shatner's book. Read Best Destiny and Starfleet Academy: Crisis on Vulcan, Aftershock, and Cadet Kirk instead.

Persoanlly I don't mind them meeting at the Academy, but I prefer to think of best buddy Mitchell as Kirk's First Officer, with Spock the odd man out in the first months of the mission.
 
Which would only work if there were a captain between Pike and Kirk, since Kirk stated in The Menagerie that he'd only met Pike once before, when Pike had been promoted to Fleet Captain.

To be sure, Kirk only said he had met Pike before, not that he had met Pike once before (even if the implication was there). And he did seem to be on first-name basis with Pike, impyling familiarity (or then some sort of I'm-entitled-to-familiarity-because-you're-a-cripple-in-need-of-hugging mentality).

So Kirk and Spock might in theory have served under Pike before Pike became fleet Captain. Even if it perhaps looks like only Spock is in truly close terms with Pike, any of Kirk's TOS crew (save for the youngest of the youngsters) could be former Pike crew members, too. But to really justify that in a future movie, episode or book would take some pretty nifty writing.

Timo Saloniemi
 
There's really nothing saying either way.
But he claimed that it was actually mentioned by someone onscreen somewhere, so I'm just asking him to tell me where it was said. He won't be able to because no such thing was ever referenced.

People are falling all over themselves claiming "there's nothing to say that it couldn't have happened" to justify it happening. That's fair enough. But I'm just saying that putting the two together earlier than Kirk coming aboard is pandering to a fanboy mentality and not good storytelling. Hell, this whole prequel idea is bullshit in the first place, glazing over the fact that they can't come up with a decently genuine 5-year mission story. They're catering to the lowest denominator in doing a dumb "origin" story.

BTW, in regards to saying there could have been a Captain between Pike and Kirk to justify Kirk and Spock together on the E before Kirk gets command.

Uh, duh. No!

The series clearly established how long Pike commanded and that Kirk took over right after him. No one in between.

Actually it just basically states that Kirk and Pike both commanded the Enterprise. Doesn't really stipulate when.
Wrong. Perhaps you didn't watch "The Menagerie" closely enough and really listen?

It says right onscreen that Kirk met Pike only once before and that was when he took over command from him. And Spock says he served nine plus years with Pike all the way back to before the Talos IV incident. Therefore no way in hell was Kirk aboard while Pike was aboard.

For decades it was clear what the onscreen references intended. But now J.J. is being like the previous creatively bereft gang trying to contort things to justify what he thinks is a kewl idea.
 
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Which would only work if there were a captain between Pike and Kirk, since Kirk stated in The Menagerie that he'd only met Pike once before, when Pike had been promoted to Fleet Captain.
To be sure, Kirk only said he had met Pike before, not that he had met Pike once before (even if the implication was there).

The implication is pretty strong. When asked if he'd ever met Pike, Kirk says that he met him when he was promoted to Fleet Captain. If they'd served together surely Kirk would have said "I met him when he was promoted and served as his first officer for [X Amount of Time]." It is pretty clear to me that the intention was that Kirk knew Pike as a fellow officer, but the two did not have any sort of history together.
 
In season 2 the episode Journey to Babel, we find out that Spock entered the academy 18 yrs prior as was already stated by Nerys Myk. If the academy is a 4 yr program and you typically start at age 18, then Spock was 22 when he graduated and at age 36 when JTB happens. In the Deadly Years which was in Season 2 Kirk States he is 34. One could assume that in the episode Menagerie in season one, Kirk was 33. Per Memory Alpha under the episode synopsis, the events of the episode The Cage and the Enterprise heading to Talos occured 13 yrs prior. That would mean that Kirk was 20 yrs old during the events of The Cage. Kirk would probably still be in the Academy for another yr or 2. That would also mean that The Cage was one of Spock's first missions. It's not "unreasonable" to think because he is a Vulcan with a nice intellect that he got a post as Science Officer for the Enterprise as his first assignment. But there is also a window for Kirk to be a sophmore while Spock was a senior at the academy. It could be plausible that as Spocks last commitment to the Academy as a Senior before going on his first mission was to try and bust this wunderkind of a phenom sophmore human known as Jim Kirk as nothing more than a cheat concerning the Kobyashi Maru. Probably because no one else has ever done it and its the logical thing to do. However Kirk does not get in trouble for cheating, infact he gets rewarded, because of this he likes Spock nonetheless, he understands Spock's use of logic. Besides, no one would find out he cheated if Spock doesn't bust him. Spock then goes to the Enterprise under Pike while Kirk finishes school. Because he's Jim Kirk and the coolest badass ever and he beat the no win scenario he obviously rises to Captain alot quicker than anyone else after graduating and then serving in various positions. When Kirk gets the news he's in command of the Enterprise and is aware that Spock is on board as Science Officer he requests that Spock become first officer. Spock has 13 yrs on the ship and is familiar with it, he knows some of the crew,and because of the Kobyashi Maru, Kirk knows Spock will always do the right thing even it means going against the Captain. This is just how I picture it. But it does make it feasible for them to be at the academy together. I also imagine that Scotty, Uhura, and Sulu were already serving on the Enterprise under Pike before Kirk, for just a few years at best. If Kirk was 34 and Spock 36 in season 2, I also imagine McCoy being around 40, that puts him at 39 in season 1 and 66 in TUC when he says he has been chief medical officer for 27 years at the trial. In Generations it states that it is 78 years later so if we minus 7 yrs from the show to put us in Season 1 of TNG that leaves us with 71 years and if we add that to McCoy's age of 66 in TUC, that Makes McCoy 137 yrs old in Encounter at Farpoint. I think they state his age as different by a year or 2 but it is close enough for me. It's kinda sketchy but that is how i rationalized it. I don't think Kirk and Spock were friends at the Academy. They knew of each other and had a rivarly as any underclassmen would have with a Senior. Why does that stupid movie Drumline come to mind? Anyhow this rivarly created a working relationship that developed into a wonderful friendship as well. In my experience some of my greatest competition have become my greatest allies. But to answer the original question for this thread, until the news of this new movie, I just assumed they met when Kirk took command in WNMHGB.

Am I the only one who couldn't read this?

Kind of a pity if you don't make the effort, because it blows a lot of fanon about whether Kirk and Spock would have been at the Academy together to irrecoverable smithereens. :techman:

Thanks, it was a quick tangent after several cups of coffee!:)
 
In season 2 the episode Journey to Babel, we find out that Spock entered the academy 18 yrs prior as was already stated by Nerys Myk. If the academy is a 4 yr program and you typically start at age 18, then Spock was 22 when he graduated and at age 36 when JTB happens. In the Deadly Years which was in Season 2 Kirk States he is 34. One could assume that in the episode Menagerie in season one, Kirk was 33. Per Memory Alpha under the episode synopsis, the events of the episode The Cage and the Enterprise heading to Talos occured 13 yrs prior. That would mean that Kirk was 20 yrs old during the events of The Cage. Kirk would probably still be in the Academy for another yr or 2. That would also mean that The Cage was one of Spock's first missions. It's not "unreasonable" to think because he is a Vulcan with a nice intellect that he got a post as Science Officer for the Enterprise as his first assignment. But there is also a window for Kirk to be a sophmore while Spock was a senior at the academy. It could be plausible that as Spocks last commitment to the Academy as a Senior before going on his first mission was to try and bust this wunderkind of a phenom sophmore human known as Jim Kirk as nothing more than a cheat concerning the Kobyashi Maru. Probably because no one else has ever done it and its the logical thing to do. However Kirk does not get in trouble for cheating, infact he gets rewarded, because of this he likes Spock nonetheless, he understands Spock's use of logic. Besides, no one would find out he cheated if Spock doesn't bust him. Spock then goes to the Enterprise under Pike while Kirk finishes school. Because he's Jim Kirk and the coolest badass ever and he beat the no win scenario he obviously rises to Captain alot quicker than anyone else after graduating and then serving in various positions. When Kirk gets the news he's in command of the Enterprise and is aware that Spock is on board as Science Officer he requests that Spock become first officer. Spock has 13 yrs on the ship and is familiar with it, he knows some of the crew,and because of the Kobyashi Maru, Kirk knows Spock will always do the right thing even it means going against the Captain. This is just how I picture it. But it does make it feasible for them to be at the academy together. I also imagine that Scotty, Uhura, and Sulu were already serving on the Enterprise under Pike before Kirk, for just a few years at best. If Kirk was 34 and Spock 36 in season 2, I also imagine McCoy being around 40, that puts him at 39 in season 1 and 66 in TUC when he says he has been chief medical officer for 27 years at the trial. In Generations it states that it is 78 years later so if we minus 7 yrs from the show to put us in Season 1 of TNG that leaves us with 71 years and if we add that to McCoy's age of 66 in TUC, that Makes McCoy 137 yrs old in Encounter at Farpoint. I think they state his age as different by a year or 2 but it is close enough for me. It's kinda sketchy but that is how i rationalized it. I don't think Kirk and Spock were friends at the Academy. They knew of each other and had a rivarly as any underclassmen would have with a Senior. Why does that stupid movie Drumline come to mind? Anyhow this rivarly created a working relationship that developed into a wonderful friendship as well. In my experience some of my greatest competition have become my greatest allies. But to answer the original question for this thread, until the news of this new movie, I just assumed they met when Kirk took command in WNMHGB.

Am I the only one who couldn't read this?
Not easily... it was difficult. Dude, did you ever hear of paragraphs? :vulcan: You must be a student of a certain long-winded android I knew in the 24th century.
 
here it is in "paragraphavision!

shatastrophic said:
In season 2 the episode Journey to Babel, we find out that Spock entered the academy 18 yrs prior as was already stated by Nerys Myk. If the academy is a 4 yr program and you typically start at age 18, then Spock was 22 when he graduated and at age 36 when JTB happens.

In the Deadly Years which was in Season 2 Kirk States he is 34. One could assume that in the episode Menagerie in season one, Kirk was 33. Per Memory Alpha under the episode synopsis, the events of the episode The Cage and the Enterprise heading to Talos occured 13 yrs prior.

That would mean that Kirk was 20 yrs old during the events of The Cage. Kirk would probably still be in the Academy for another yr or 2. That would also mean that The Cage was one of Spock's first missions.

It's not "unreasonable" to think because he is a Vulcan with a nice intellect that he got a post as Science Officer for the Enterprise as his first assignment. But there is also a window for Kirk to be a sophmore while Spock was a senior at the academy.

It could be plausible that as Spocks last commitment to the Academy as a Senior before going on his first mission was to try and bust this wunderkind of a phenom sophmore human known as Jim Kirk as nothing more than a cheat concerning the Kobyashi Maru. Probably because no one else has ever done it and its the logical thing to do.

However Kirk does not get in trouble for cheating, infact he gets rewarded, because of this he likes Spock nonetheless, he understands Spock's use of logic. Besides, no one would find out he cheated if Spock doesn't bust him. Spock then goes to the Enterprise under Pike while Kirk finishes school.

Because he's Jim Kirk and the coolest badass ever and he beat the no win scenario he obviously rises to Captain alot quicker than anyone else after graduating and then serving in various positions. When Kirk gets the news he's in command of the Enterprise and is aware that Spock is on board as Science Officer he requests that Spock become first officer.

Spock has 13 yrs on the ship and is familiar with it, he knows some of the crew,and because of the Kobyashi Maru, Kirk knows Spock will always do the right thing even it means going against the Captain. This is just how I picture it. But it does make it feasible for them to be at the academy together.

I also imagine that Scotty, Uhura, and Sulu were already serving on the Enterprise under Pike before Kirk, for just a few years at best. If Kirk was 34 and Spock 36 in season 2, I also imagine McCoy being around 40, that puts him at 39 in season 1 and 66 in TUC when he says he has been chief medical officer for 27 years at the trial.

In Generations it states that it is 78 years later so if we minus 7 yrs from the show to put us in Season 1 of TNG that leaves us with 71 years and if we add that to McCoy's age of 66 in TUC, that Makes McCoy 137 yrs old in Encounter at Farpoint.

I think they state his age as different by a year or 2 but it is close enough for me. It's kinda sketchy but that is how i rationalized it. I don't think Kirk and Spock were friends at the Academy. They knew of each other and had a rivarly as any underclassmen would have with a Senior.

Why does that stupid movie Drumline come to mind? Anyhow this rivarly created a working relationship that developed into a wonderful friendship as well. In my experience some of my greatest competition have become my greatest allies. But to answer the original question for this thread, until the news of this new movie, I just assumed they met when Kirk took command in WNMHGB.

Thanks again Joe
 
They met before.

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Before work started, that is.

Joe, crossovering
 
The implication is pretty strong. When asked if he'd ever met Pike, Kirk says that he met him when he was promoted to Fleet Captain. If they'd served together surely Kirk would have said "I met him when he was promoted and served as his first officer for [X Amount of Time]."

But perhaps it goes the other way around - perhaps Kirk last met his good friend Pike when the latter was promoted?

Note that Mendez is speaking in pronouncedly clipped sentences here, and isn't really interested in hearing what Kirk has to say in response. One almost gets the impression that Mendez already knows Kirk and Pike were friends, and just wants an intro for his upcoming tirade about how Pike used to be such a manly example of manhood and now...

Kirk could well respond in kind. His clipped sentence would in full read "Yes, we have met, but as you can see, I'm not really up to date on his situation, because we haven't met after that promotion ceremony".

It is pretty clear to me that the intention was that Kirk knew Pike as a fellow officer, but the two did not have any sort of history together.

Certainly. But this can be perverted with future writing without violating the letter of the episode, no matter what the spirit. And I'm not sure it shouldn't. Pike is something of a camp icon close to at least Scotty in recognizability, and the character should be milked for whatever dramatic potential lies therein... And since a pure Pike movie or a Pike show isn't doable, we need a link through one of the major characters. Although I'd much rather that it be Spock than Kirk.

Timo Saloniemi
 
And since a pure Pike movie or a Pike show isn't doable...

Timo Saloniemi
I'm not at all sure about this. In fact I recall quite some time ago drafting out a series proposal (live-action or animated) for just such an idea and posting it here.

Of course, it would have meant being smart and avoiding parachuting in all sorts of silly cameos and references. It would have been a way to do something of starting fresh as well as kinda TOS era without tramping all over the iconic characters and what had been established in TOS. It could avoid all the things ENT did wrong (most things) while doing everything that ENT never did right (which was pretty much everything). Like everything it's a matter of execution.

It could be done if done right. But it would take creativity, smarts and guts, all attributes woefully in short supply in mainstream Hollywood and with most of TPTB.

And considering what J.J. Abrahms seems to be doing that likely includes him as well.
 
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I think they met at the Academy, although they were not necessarily friends.

In my mind, I have a scenario where Kirk must appear before a student disciplinary hearing for alledgedly "cheating" on the Kobayshi Maru Test, and upper-classman Spock is one of the disciplinary panel members.

In my personal (and admittedly overly-detailed) fanon, Spock was in the minority of panel members who voted to disclipline young Kirk -- which would explain the scene in TWoK when Spock's gave an "annoyed-sounding" explanation of Kirk's experience with the test.
 
It is pretty clear to me that the intention was that Kirk knew Pike as a fellow officer, but the two did not have any sort of history together.

Certainly. But this can be perverted with future writing without violating the letter of the episode, no matter what the spirit. And I'm not sure it shouldn't.

This sort of attitude makes me nauseous. Unlike most of the later series, Star Trek was so much more than the words on the page.

Pike is something of a camp icon close to at least Scotty in recognizability,

No way. The whole world knows "beam me up, Scotty." Only the initiated know of Pike.
 
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