If Tony Todd-Jake hadn't 'saved' Sisko in The Visitor, Jadzia would still be alive.
Candyman was the true culprit all along. Figures.
In the Pale Moonlight....
- Thread starter elamigodemiamiga
- Start date
If Tony Todd-Jake hadn't 'saved' Sisko in The Visitor, Jadzia would still be alive.
Candyman was the true culprit all along. Figures.
Your post is confusing. If the Jem Hadar could make their own white, it's likely they would have just taken it by force and done so. Likely so for the Vorta. If you were the Founders would you float around defenseless in the great link while the solids who do your bidding could just take what controls them by force and then destroy you? I didn't say the founders made it, I said only they knew how to make it. How else would it work? The Jem Hadar need the white, and just nicely let the Vorta have complete control over it, and everyone just serves the founders "just because", and the founders who distrust everyone just leaves this "honor system" in place? I don't think so. The Vorta are incapable of reproducingand have short life spans, and must be cloned. The founders control that. The Vorta control the white to control the Jem Hadar who also have short life spans, and the system has checks and balances.
Yes. We don't have anything close to this today, yet people are addicted to virtual sex. Imagine when (not IF) technology makes it nearly real.
Then a whole bunch of left-wingers got it wrong today, and we shouldn't be investing our time and money in the weak and poor.
Where did I say that the humans only have negative impulses? Charity and compassion and even the urge to improve society are also human traits. The human condition includes altruism and selfishness, reason and emotion, positive and negative impulses. And any future society, no matter how advanced or progressive, is going to reflect those paradoxes. Social progress and human frailty are not mutually exclusive. Indeed, any working "utopia" is going to have to accommodate actual flesh-and-blood human beings in all their complexity and messiness, not idealized paragons of virtue.
Remember "The Enemy Within"? The "good" Kirk couldn't just beam his "evil" self into space and erase it from existence. He needed both halves to be complete. The total Kirk was a mixture of both positive and negative traits, virtue and brutality. Heck, even Spock eventually had to come to terms with his divided nature and try to strike a balance between his logic and his emotions.
Social progress is possible, but no crime at all? Not unless we're all replaced by robots.
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that wont happen for at least a few more decades
Why would they need to take by force something they can make?
Why would they need to take by force something that they already have? The very point of the arrangement is that the Vorta have the White, and thus have direct power over the Jem'Hadar who otherwise would pay no heed to the Vorta (even though they worship abstractions like the Mission and the Duty and the Founders, and thus never disobey anyway).
Somebody needs to make the White. In order to do so, they need to know how to make it. The recipe obviously is a well-kept secret, and there are ways of keeping recipes secret even against rampaging hordes who can trivially capture all your cooks and torture them for their information. We already see some examples of this, with the portable safes that the Vorta use to stop the Jem'Hadar from getting White at will (no doubt the safes are engineered to destroy the White if anybody but an authorized and willing Vorta tries to open them, plus to make it difficult for even one of those Vorta to open them for selfish purposes such as self-survival).
No such arrangement is perfect, though: there are always ways for a few Jem'Hadar to get their dirty hands on a little White. But in the bigger scheme of things, that doesn't matter: such rebels are mercilessly mowed down by loyal Jem'Hadar, as in "To the Death". There's no constant rebellion bubbling under the surface of perfect slavery - there's willingness to obey, and deep disgust at the thought of betrayal. After all, the Jem'Hadar know they are on the winning side...
Well, certainly not THAT way! If only X knows how to do it, and X doesn't do it, it doesn't get done. Simple as that.
There must be cooks out there with the recipe. We know the Son'a are such cooks. They aren't specified as being unique. The Founders just employ them, and other cooks, much like they employ folks who clone Jem'Hadar and Vorta, and folks who build weapons. We have seen how the weapons come from the Karemma ("Starship Down"), and the fact that a subjugated species builds them is clearly not a risk to the Dominion. Heck, the Nazis trusted the building of their most powerful superweapons on the people who hated the Nazis the most (which admittedly meant the work was shoddy, but that just goes to show the Nazis were too soft by Founder standards).
Timo Saloniemi
How is the book?
Its not grabbing my attention at the moment. I am at the part where Sisko and Garak arrive on Earth. I hope it gets better cos I am having regrets buying it.
Why would they need to take by force something they can make?
Why would they need to take by force something that they already have? The very point of the arrangement is that the Vorta have the White, and thus have direct power over the Jem'Hadar who otherwise would pay no heed to the Vorta (even though they worship abstractions like the Mission and the Duty and the Founders, and thus never disobey anyway).
Somebody needs to make the White. In order to do so, they need to know how to make it. The recipe obviously is a well-kept secret, and there are ways of keeping recipes secret even against rampaging hordes who can trivially capture all your cooks and torture them for their information. We already see some examples of this, with the portable safes that the Vorta use to stop the Jem'Hadar from getting White at will (no doubt the safes are engineered to destroy the White if anybody but an authorized and willing Vorta tries to open them, plus to make it difficult for even one of those Vorta to open them for selfish purposes such as self-survival).
No such arrangement is perfect, though: there are always ways for a few Jem'Hadar to get their dirty hands on a little White. But in the bigger scheme of things, that doesn't matter: such rebels are mercilessly mowed down by loyal Jem'Hadar, as in "To the Death". There's no constant rebellion bubbling under the surface of perfect slavery - there's willingness to obey, and deep disgust at the thought of betrayal. After all, the Jem'Hadar know they are on the winning side...
Well, certainly not THAT way! If only X knows how to do it, and X doesn't do it, it doesn't get done. Simple as that.
There must be cooks out there with the recipe. We know the Son'a are such cooks. They aren't specified as being unique. The Founders just employ them, and other cooks, much like they employ folks who clone Jem'Hadar and Vorta, and folks who build weapons. We have seen how the weapons come from the Karemma ("Starship Down"), and the fact that a subjugated species builds them is clearly not a risk to the Dominion. Heck, the Nazis trusted the building of their most powerful superweapons on the people who hated the Nazis the most (which admittedly meant the work was shoddy, but that just goes to show the Nazis were too soft by Founder standards).
Timo Saloniemi
This post is indecipherable nonsense. The founders trust no one. Are you really trying to make a case for some alpha quadrant solids knowing the secrets of the white, which is to say, the secrets to controlling the jem hadar?
This totally ignores Rocks and Shoals, which clearly demonstrated the Jem Hadar Loyalty to the founders goes way beyond just addiction to K White.
Noted. As does the Vortas. Both races' loyalty were apparently instincts that were encoded into their genome. Humans have instincts too... many of which are ignored and repressed in modern society. If the genetic loyalty was absolute, there would be no need for the white, and no need for White or termination implants . Yes. Don't forget about that Vorta that wanted to leave the dominion (defect) and get asylum (Treachery, Faith and the Great River)
No, I stand by my original assessment. The founders were no fools, and built their system to be foolproof. The white keeps the Jem Hadar loyal, the termination implants keep the Vorta loyal, and the founders ultimately fully control both and neither race can gain control of their fate.
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