In the Pale Moonlight....

[Greg Cox]

I think you mean bear arms. what would the motive for murder be?

Anger, revenge, jealousy, politics, religion, insanity, and greed are the usual suspects.

Money and mental illness are less likely to be factors in the more civilized corners of the Federation, although Lord knows that STAR TREK seems to have its fair share of crazy Starfleet captains and out-of-control scientists, not to mention undercover assassins and such.

 

[Timo]

As regards phaser killings, is there a case of X vaporizing Y and Z not noticing? Or even a case of Z noticing, but not realizing that X dunnit? We see a "false positive" for a phaser kill in "Gambit" (it was in fact a transporter - understandable that two technologies based on "phasing" might get confused), but AFAIK no "false negatives" and no mystery disappearances that were in fact the work of a phaser.

The one time the latter thing is attempted, in "In the Hands of the Prophets", the baddie first uses a phaser at kill and then a plasma conduit to destroy the body - not merely inefficient and ultimately unsuccessful, but heavily suggestive that making people disappear is really, really hard in the 24th century!

Timo Saloniemi

 

[Paradise City]

Phasers seem very accessible albeit most of them outside of Starfleet seem to be antiquated ones. You kind of have to rely on the temperament of the enlightened new man than something like phaser-control.

That said, in the Rasmussen episode, the ships computer can turn off phasers, can't they?

 

[Timo]

Supposedly, the computer can be adversarial to the user on phaser firing, corridor forcefield activation, stun gas use and the like. Demonstrably, though, the authorized and skilled Starfleet user generally wins against the computer, so the element of trust remains crucial. Unauthorized civilian hoodlums no doubt would fare worse...

Did we ever see evidence of an anti-gun sentiment in the UFP? In DS9, certain colonists chose to live in a Demilitarized Zone, so their right to carry armaments was obviously limited, but I don't think we heard it extend to an explicit ban on handguns, say. And when Kevin Uxbridge brandished a (nonfunctional) sidearm in "Survivors", this did not elicit a reaction from the TNG heroes; the rest of the colonists had an ample supply of supposedly lethal weapons as well, again without comment.

Of course, it might be that civilians have ease of access to death rays locked on stun setting (or, preferably, with the lethal bits removed altogether). Such weapons would appear to meet all their imaginable needs. After all, Starfleet wages wars with stun guns, as seen in "Errand of Mercy"! Nevertheless, the sidearms of Doctors Crater and Korby appeared lethal enough in TOS.

Timo Saloniemi

 

[Nyotarules]

I think you mean bear arms. what would the motive for murder be?

Murder does not need a motive

 

[Bad Thoughts]

During World War III after the British invaded France (again), the country was never the same lol

No, I was thinking more along the lines of those people in the Discovery forum looking for something exactly ten years from an event in TOS.

 

[DonIago]

They weren't, really.

Their mistake was more:

(a) they treated their predictions as certainties, with no margin for new information.
(b) they were presumptive enough to think they should make the major decisions, unelected, on behalf of everyone in the Alpha Quadrant.​

When it comes to the latter, you could see it as a perspective flip on some of Kirk and Picard's decisions. A few guys come in, determines something needs to be done for 'the greater good', ignores any authority, and totally upends entire civilisations (with all accompanying consequences) to get that done.

I'm not really interested in a drawn out conversation on the matter, but:
a) Sisko was predicting the Dominion would turn on the Romulans, the Bashir Gang was predicting the Dominion would win the war. Notable that BG didn't predict the Romulans entering the war, but that's sort of the point, isn't it? Predictions are just that.
b) So the difference is that Sisko was authorized (in broad terms, presumably) to do what he did? I'm not sure how that's pertinent to the question of how the two situations really differ.

My point is that I don't think Sisko's claim is necessarily any more or less legitimate than Bashir's. Instinctively I tend to believe Sisko more than Bashir, but that's tenuous ground on which to take action.

 

[Greg Cox]

Murder does not need a motive

Unless you're writing a murder mystery.

 

[Timo]

It is also potentially quite relevant that neither Sisko nor the Jack Pack had any inkling of what really made the Dominion tick. Sisko thought he knew a thing or two about Romulans, so he tried to meddle there. The Jack Pack thought they knew a thing or two about how the war effort factually was going for each party involved (and there's no evidence they would not have also factored in the unknowns and uncertainties), so they tried to control the big picture. But in the end, it all hinged on the whims of the Female Founder, now didn't it?

Game theory is faulty if applied on a game where the players are people, because it hinges on the assumption of optimally selfish (or in certain rarely used special models, optimally altruist) decisionmaking which is alien to both humans and (apparently) Trek humanoids. The Dominion War would be worse, because not only is the Female Founder not working optimally towards a known goal, but the Jack Pack and Sisko both are completely ignorant of the goal!

How does one win the war? Not by fighting it, obviously, in retrospect. But our heroes ignored the possibility.

Timo Saloniemi

 

[Nyotarules]

Just bought Hollow Men e book, time to get inside Sisko's conscience.

 

[jmidnight_99]

Anger, revenge, jealousy, politics, religion, insanity, and greed are the usual suspects.

Money and mental illness are less likely to be factors in the more civilized corners of the Federation, although Lord knows that STAR TREK seems to have its fair share of crazy Starfleet captains and out-of-control scientists, not to mention undercover assassins and such.

Yes, but there is no wealth, there is no poverty, so there would be no greed. And I would hope insanity and other mental and behavioral problems would be cured by then. Politics and religion would be moot, there are plenty of worlds to colonize to have your own societies. And whats there to be jealous about when you have holodecks?

 

[jmidnight_99]

Murder does not need a motive

it does if you don't have a mental defect.

 

[jmidnight_99]

It is also potentially quite relevant that neither Sisko nor the Jack Pack had any inkling of what really made the Dominion tick. Sisko thought he knew a thing or two about Romulans, so he tried to meddle there. The Jack Pack thought they knew a thing or two about how the war effort factually was going for each party involved (and there's no evidence they would not have also factored in the unknowns and uncertainties), so they tried to control the big picture. But in the end, it all hinged on the whims of the Female Founder, now didn't it?

Game theory is faulty if applied on a game where the players are people, because it hinges on the assumption of optimally selfish (or in certain rarely used special models, optimally altruist) decisionmaking which is alien to both humans and (apparently) Trek humanoids. The Dominion War would be worse, because not only is the Female Founder not working optimally towards a known goal, but the Jack Pack and Sisko both are completely ignorant of the goal!

How does one win the war? Not by fighting it, obviously, in retrospect. But our heroes ignored the possibility.

Timo Saloniemi

Wachoo talkin about? The war was won because area 31 used a biological weapon. The founders would have died eventually. After that the vorta and jem hadar would have killed each other. Isn't it true that the founders alone knew the secret of the ketrecel white?

 

[Greg Cox]

Yes, but there is no wealth, there is no poverty, so there would be no greed. And I would hope insanity and other mental and behavioral problems would be cured by then. Politics and religion would be moot, there are plenty of worlds to colonize to have your own societies. And whats there to be jealous about when you have holodecks?

History suggests that poverty alone doesn't drive people to crime or avarice. That people with strong ideological views are often compelled to act on them (hello, Valeris!)--and may not want to leave their homes and exile themselves to some remote colony. And as for holodecks . .. are you seriously suggesting that holographic sex is going to stop people from forming or wanting romantic attachments with actual living beings? Or from getting their hearts broken on occasion?

"Oh, my boyfriend dumped me for another gal, but that's okay because I can always have sex with a hologram. No reason for me to get upset or angry or homicidal at all . ..."

Don't get me wrong. I doubt they have major crime problems in advanced societies like on Earth. Probably not a lot of bank robberies or drug cartels or protection rackets. But people are people and, as Spock often observed, human beings are emotional creatures who are often driven by their emotions and insecurities and more primitive impulses. They wouldn't be human otherwise.

That's not going to change, even in the 24th Century.

 

[TheSeeker]

@jmidnight_99 , please use the multi-quote function if there are multiple posts you would like to reply to. It can be found at the bottom right of each post in between the "Like" and "Reply" button. Thank you.

 

[Timo]

Wachoo talkin about? The war was won because area 31 used a biological weapon.

Which is sort of the point. The Jack Pack were trying to win the war, and so was Sisko. Section 31 bypassed the whole war and proceeded straight to the winning part - because they knew that the Founder was the key and all the warships and troops were ultimately irrelevant.

The founders would have died eventually. After that the vorta and jem hadar would have killed each other. Isn't it true that the founders alone knew the secret of the ketrecel white?

The Feds didn't admit to knowing it. Apparently, at least the Son'a knew, though, as per ST:Insurrection. They were producing the stuff for Dominion needs; we don't know who else was doing it, but clearly it wasn't just a bunch of Founders huddled over a cauldron in a dark cave. Had the Jem'Hadar or the Vorta been thus inclined, they could have stormed one of those factories, taken control, and produced all the White they would ever need.

No doubt the Jack Pack would have been thinking in terms of hitting the White supplies one way or another, or even launching competing UFP production of White (the way the presses of England and Germany were churning off counterfeit pounds and Reichsmarks in WWII). That's classic martial thinking. But that's about as dirty as they dared play, or else they would have realized that assassinating the leaders would be the way to proceed. Bioweapons, snipers, ambushes - the means wouldn't have mattered, the assassination attempts could have been made, and their calculations should have indicated a positive outcome from them.

Timo Saloniemi

 

[DonIago]

Heck, perhaps the Jack Pack figured the Romulans would enter the war one way or another, but it still wouldn't make a difference.

 

[Bad Thoughts]

All we need now is for someone to say that had Sisko (and the Federation) taken the Jack Packs' advice, Jadzia would still be alive.

 

[Timo]

How does this magic of theirs work anyway? Is it like Asimovian psychohistory - if anybody else knows what the results are, this will change the results?

...If so, perhaps the Jack Pack saw this, and their calculations indicated that the best way to save the Federation and win the war was to tell Sisko that the war was already lost?

Timo Saloniemi

 

[DonIago]

All we need now is for someone to say that had Sisko (and the Federation) taken the Jack Packs' advice, Jadzia would still be alive.

Well, to be fair, we don't know how Dukat's meeting with Damar and Weyoun might have progressed if the Jack Pack had been successful, much less what Our Heroes might have been up to by that point in such a timeline.