"In the Pale Moonlight" -Sisko is overreacting

[Robert DeSoto]

I don't understand why Sisko is so pissed at Garak. The man is a hero. The Federation was at war. Fighting war means casualties. Vreenak wasn't some innocent civilian. He was a high ranking Romulan Senator. He was the prick who made the Empire sign the non-aggression pact with the Dominion. The Romulans originally intended to fight the Dominion as we saw in "Inferno's Light". But this guy screwed everyone over. Not only that, he was a cocky, racist asshole.

In fact, I don't see why Sisko was so disturbed about any of the other stuff he did. Yes he lied....to the Romulans! What is so bad about lying to a people that have been a cold blooded enemy of the Federation for the past 200 years? It's not like he tried to cover up his actions to Starfleet or the Federation. Sisko kept Starfleet up to date about what he was planning. Sisko's oath is to the Federation and no one else.

Besides, Sisko was probably right. The Dominion was most likely planning to invade Romulus sooner or later, so they're doing them a favor.

Okay, the bribe. I think the bribe was pretty generous of him. Sisko could've just quietly forced the investigation aside, like Starfleet did with the Pegasus investigation. At least this way, the victim gets compensated. I mean as long as Quark is happy, that's all that should matter cuz he's the victim of the crime. If only our own justice system was as concerned about victim's welfare...but that's another story.

As for the killing of Vreenak. Putting aside the fact that he's the prick that screwed over the Alpha Quadrant in the first place, he was going back to the Empire to tell everyone what just happened. Does Sisko honestly want that to happen? Does he want the Romulans to start to support the Dominion militarily? Killing him was the perfect solution!

I don't see why Sisko is so angry. I think Garak is a hero. I think it was an ingenius plan to fool the Empire into joining the war. The Federation needs men like Garak.

 

[anti-matter]

Perhaps Sisko was overcome with the shock when he came to the realization that Garak was right…

..you can’t win this war using the high minded noble principals that Starfleet insists upon.

‘…and here’s a thank you for turning me into the dirty bastard you are Mr. Garak” POW!

…I dunno. It surprised me too.

 

[Frontier]

Read my avatar, folks. Especially the last night of that quote. "And if I had to do it all over again? I would."

Ben was not over reacting. He was reacting.

He had to face facts, jarring facts that shook the very foundation of his entire belief system, his faith in Starfleet in his principles, his faith in himself. And facing this new reality was very traumatic for him. From what we know of Star Trek, people do not primarily have the same hardened religious beliefs as they do today. They may have beliefs, religious and/or spiritual, but they are not as significant. Replacing that significane was Benjamin Sisko's belief that humanity had evolved, that the noble ideals and priciples of the Federation where the foundation of that evolution, and that nothing could not be acomplished through them. Imagine waking up to the reality that that was false after all. That the basis of your life and work had a major loop-hole in it. In today's society it would sort of be like having god(s) reveal themself and tell everyone, "you have been wrong in this, this, and that, and you must face that reality," - it would be earth shattering.

Just two years before he had called Admiral Leyton, a friend and former superior officer, a traitor for going to extremes to secure the future of the Federation. Extremes Sisko deplored, and thought where treason. And he was right, Leyton's action at the time where wrong and treason. Had he waited though? Things might have been different. Something they touch upon in the recent novel "Hollow Man" a sequel to "In the Pale Moonlight".

That is why Sisko reacted in such an extreme manner. Because everything he had known, believed in, and worked towards his whole life, suddenly had a giant gaping hole in it. It was a crisis of faith.

 

[Harvey]

What Frontier said pretty much sums up everything I might have tried writing. Great post, btw.

 

[Frontier]

Posted by Hirogen Alpha:
What Frontier said pretty much sums up everything I might have tried writing. Great post, btw.

Well, it's obvious how much I love the episode, how many times I've watched it, how much thought I've put into it. Hell, I have a whole story idea for a sequel book based in the DS9 relaunch on it, but with Hollow Man, I kinda got crimped. LOL.

 

[Blade Runner]

Posted by Hirogen Alpha:
What Frontier said pretty much sums up everything I might have tried writing. Great post, btw.

Seconded! :thumbsup:

I couldn't have put it so eloquently. Great post!

 

[Temis the Vorta]

Sisko isn't really angry at Garak. He's angry at himself, because he realizes he has to do things that go against his sense of ethics and is taking it out on poor Garak. "Killing the messenger" as it were. Garak is savvy enough to realize that Sisko's ire isn't really aimed at him.

The Federation needs men like Garak.

Yes it does. It's just that Sisko doesn't like knowing that.

Very intelligently written and psychologically astute episode.

 

[Lee T]

I'm not sure he's angry at Garak for what he/Garak/they both did, I felt it more like he was angry at Garak for taking life and death decisions behind his back.

 

[Judas Ascendant]

At least Sisko didn't give Garak a wedgie. That would've been overreacting!

 

[Peach Wookiee]

Posted by Hirogen Alpha:
What Frontier said pretty much sums up everything I might have tried writing. Great post, btw.

Agreed.

 

[PKTrekGirl]

Posted by Judas Ascendant:
At least Sisko didn't give Garak a wedgie. That would've been overreacting!

Well.

The mental picture on THAT certainly isn't helpin' my wa.

 

[Robert DeSoto]

Posted by Frontier:
Read my avatar, folks. Especially the last night of that quote. "And if I had to do it all over again? I would."

Ben was not over reacting. He was reacting.

He had to face facts, jarring facts that shook the very foundation of his entire belief system, his faith in Starfleet in his principles, his faith in himself. And facing this new reality was very traumatic for him. From what we know of Star Trek, people do not primarily have the same hardened religious beliefs as they do today. They may have beliefs, religious and/or spiritual, but they are not as significant. Replacing that significane was Benjamin Sisko's belief that humanity had evolved, that the noble ideals and priciples of the Federation where the foundation of that evolution, and that nothing could not be acomplished through them. Imagine waking up to the reality that that was false after all. That the basis of your life and work had a major loop-hole in it. In today's society it would sort of be like having god(s) reveal themself and tell everyone, "you have been wrong in this, this, and that, and you must face that reality," - it would be earth shattering.

Just two years before he had called Admiral Leyton, a friend and former superior officer, a traitor for going to extremes to secure the future of the Federation. Extremes Sisko deplored, and thought where treason. And he was right, Leyton's action at the time where wrong and treason. Had he waited though? Things might have been different. Something they touch upon in the recent novel "Hollow Man" a sequel to "In the Pale Moonlight".

That is why Sisko reacted in such an extreme manner. Because everything he had known, believed in, and worked towards his whole life, suddenly had a giant gaping hole in it. It was a crisis of faith.

Yeah, I understand what you're saying. I just think Sisko is being way too hard on himself. I don't think he really violated Starfleet principles. Starfleet fully supported his mission. Yes he lied. So what? When Starfleet sends undercover agents to spy on the Romulans, those agents have to lie to protect Federation interests. There is nothing wrong with that. I'm sure the Romulan Tal Shiar does the same thing to the Federation. It's part of the game. It's not cheating!

He bribed Quark. True, but he bribed the person that was the victim of the crime. This is more like compensation. This is completely different from bribing the investigating officer to cover up the crime. The officers, the judges, the jury, they need to be impartial to both the victim and assailant. That is why they can't be bribed. But if a victim feels he has been adequetely compensated, it is fully within his right to drop the charges. Sisko didn't threaten Quark to shut down his bar, or to beat him up, or to have Starfleet Intelligence agents make him disappear. Quark wasn't coerced in any way. He chose to drop the charges out of his own free will because he felt that he was adequatetly compensated for his loss.

An accessory to murder? First of all, that man was a direct threat to Federation security. He was preparing to bring back information that could bring the Romulans into the war, on the Dominion's side. If instead of the data rod, Vreenak was bringing back Federation fleet deployments, would Starfleet not kill him to protect the Federation?

Second, even if he wasn't a threat, Sisko didn't do anything! Garak killed Vreenak without his knowledge or consent. And Sisko has no obligation to assist in the investigation. If you impede an offical police investigation, if you harbour the fugitive, or lie to the police when they ask you questions, then you are an accessory. But if the police don't ask you for anything, you're not under any obligation to volunteer or help them in any way. Did that Tal Shiar ever come to DS9 to talk to Sisko? No. Is that Sisko's fault? Nope. Even if they did, in order to be an accessory, you would first have to acknowledge the Tal Shiar as the legitamate police force of the galaxy, which I don't think Starfleet would agree with.

Sisko shouldn't relate his actions to what Leyton did either. Leyton broke his oath to Starfleet. He lied to the Federation President. He was planning to kill the President. This is the President that Leyton and Sisko swore their oath of loyalty to. Sisko made no such oath to any Romulan Senator.

 

[Frontier]

You're missing the psychology of it all, you're focusing too much on the literal facts, and on interpretation of those facts, when the true story is in the psychology of it all. It's about the inner struggle Sisko faces, and eventually resolves, without ever really resolving it - just burying it back into the darkness.

Sisko, like so many others, had devoted his life to the ideals and morals of Starfleet. Yet when push came to shove, he slowly widdled away at them until he had totally thrown them out the airlock, in order to preserve those very ideals which he was willing to sacrifice.

In order to enlist the aid of the Romulans, to secure victory, and ensure continued freedoms and the continauation of starfleet and federation ideals, he was willing sacrifice those very ideals. Kind of backwards, round-about, perverse isn't it?

He lied to the Klingons about why he needed Tolar. He lied to Vreenak about the data rod. He lied after the fact to Starfleet about the true depth of the mission. He bribed Quark, not in compensation, but to conceal Tolar's presence. He knew full well that Garak would not let someone so shady just walk away after seeing and doing what he did. He knew full wall that the data rod would not pass inspection, despite hoping it would. Yet every time those realizations occured to him, he just pushed them aside and forged ahead. Then, when the shit hit the fan and Vreenak is killed, even though he confronts Garak about it, he lets it be. He doesn't turn himself in, he doesn't turn Garak in. He doesn't tell the Romulans the truth. He doesn't even tell Starfleet the truth - though he does, eventually, in the novel Hollow Man. He becomes an accessory after the fact to the murder of Tolar, Vreenak, and Vreenak's 4 body guards. He provides a dangerous substance to an unknown, shady character, in payment for the data rod. He does all these otherwise deplorable, vile, illegal, immoral actions... for what? For victory, for the purpose of preserving the very ideals he sacrificed. It's a bit sad, really.

Here he is, a man who has lost his wife because of his duty to those ideals. A man who has ordered men to their death in the struggle to preserve those ideals. A man who has stood up, defiant, against his own former CO when that CO tried to do very similar shady acts, resulting in that mans discharge and imprisonment. A man who has literally lead the war against the Dominion to preserve paradise and it's ideals, and when it gets down to the wire, he throws them all away, everything he believes in, in order to save them.

He almost becomes the very thing he deplores. The very thing he has faught against in various forms, from the Borg to the Maquis to the Dominion.

It's all in the psychology. The acts on their own, as acts, as facts, might look trivial. Might look like he's innocent, really. Might look explainable. But when you put them in the depths of the truth, of the psychology under it all, you see it all much clearer. Much darker.

 

[PKTrekGirl]

^ Very good explanation, Frontier!

As usual, you ROCK! :thumbsup:



The greatness of this episode is not in the actual events. It's in the moral struggle that Sisko when through...and never *really* resolved.

 

[Apogeal Alpha01]

Frontier, I agree with nearly everything you've written about this except this:

Sisko, like so many others, had devoted his life to the ideals and morals of Starfleet. Yet when push came to shove, he slowly widdled away at them until he had totally thrown them out the airlock, in order to preserve those very ideals which he was willing to sacrifice.

Because before this began, he and Starfleet saw the very real possibility of the defeat of the Federation, and those allied with it. It’s a Picardian ideal that one’s ideals should survive unto death. Noble, on a personal level, but impracticable. The Federation and it’s ideals and goals were like a child to him. Jake, his father and everyone he loves is in the Federation or on Bajor. You’d give up your life and your ideals to preserve them. He’s not fighting for a construction contract, or an election to City Hall. The Federation. Earth and all the planets that comprise it. Billions and billions of lives were at stake.

He didn’t compromise his values on a whim, his goals drove him to compromise and persevere despite the beating his values were taking. I don’t believe a person in that position would be able to predict the final course this took, but I do think he knew, somehow, that Garak would do what was necessary. I’m sure that he would hope at every turn in this, that would be the last compromise he’d have to make. And then another thing needed to be done. Did he anticipate murder? I don’t think so. But given what was at stake, in the end it was worth it. As Garak reasoned, one criminal who couldn’t stay in his room but got drunk and attacked Quark, and a Romulan senator who would just as well have been happy to see the defeat of the Federation were sacrificed to bring aid to the war effort. To save the Federation. What do you think the state of Sisko’s conscious would be if he had turned away from this endeavor and the Federation had fallen? Could he have lived with that?

 

[Brutal Strudel]

My only problem with this episode is not with this episode at all but rather how DS9 managed to keep a holier-than-thou attitude toward Section 31 afterward. (Though it was nice to see Ross and Sloan conspiring in "Inter Arma...")

 

[mac]

Posted by Frontier:
You're missing the psychology of it all, you're focusing too much on the literal facts, and on interpretation of those facts, when the true story is in the psychology of it all. It's about the inner struggle Sisko faces, and eventually resolves, without ever really resolving it - just burying it back into the darkness.

Sisko, like so many others, had devoted his life to the ideals and morals of Starfleet. Yet when push came to shove, he slowly widdled away at them until he had totally thrown them out the airlock, in order to preserve those very ideals which he was willing to sacrifice.

In order to enlist the aid of the Romulans, to secure victory, and ensure continued freedoms and the continauation of starfleet and federation ideals, he was willing sacrifice those very ideals. Kind of backwards, round-about, perverse isn't it?

He lied to the Klingons about why he needed Tolar. He lied to Vreenak about the data rod. He lied after the fact to Starfleet about the true depth of the mission. He bribed Quark, not in compensation, but to conceal Tolar's presence. He knew full well that Garak would not let someone so shady just walk away after seeing and doing what he did. He knew full wall that the data rod would not pass inspection, despite hoping it would. Yet every time those realizations occured to him, he just pushed them aside and forged ahead. Then, when the shit hit the fan and Vreenak is killed, even though he confronts Garak about it, he lets it be. He doesn't turn himself in, he doesn't turn Garak in. He doesn't tell the Romulans the truth. He doesn't even tell Starfleet the truth - though he does, eventually, in the novel Hollow Man. He becomes an accessory after the fact to the murder of Tolar, Vreenak, and Vreenak's 4 body guards. He provides a dangerous substance to an unknown, shady character, in payment for the data rod. He does all these otherwise deplorable, vile, illegal, immoral actions... for what? For victory, for the purpose of preserving the very ideals he sacrificed. It's a bit sad, really.

Here he is, a man who has lost his wife because of his duty to those ideals. A man who has ordered men to their death in the struggle to preserve those ideals. A man who has stood up, defiant, against his own former CO when that CO tried to do very similar shady acts, resulting in that mans discharge and imprisonment. A man who has literally lead the war against the Dominion to preserve paradise and it's ideals, and when it gets down to the wire, he throws them all away, everything he believes in, in order to save them.

He almost becomes the very thing he deplores. The very thing he has faught against in various forms, from the Borg to the Maquis to the Dominion.

It's all in the psychology. The acts on their own, as acts, as facts, might look trivial. Might look like he's innocent, really. Might look explainable. But when you put them in the depths of the truth, of the psychology under it all, you see it all much clearer. Much darker.

Sir I bow to your wisdom.

:thumbsup: :thumbsup: :thumbsup:

 

[Frontier]

Posted by mac:

Sir I bow to your wisdom.

:thumbsup: :thumbsup: :thumbsup:

Wooo!

Vash, you should sticky this. Not only cause it's likely the only time someone will ever "bow to my wisdom" - - but cause it's such a good explanation. :thumbsup:

 

[Apogeal Alpha01]

I think we all respect the care you take when tackling an issue and the wisdom. You're just wrong some of the time. :thumbsup:

 

[PKTrekGirl]

Posted by Frontier:

Posted by mac:

Sir I bow to your wisdom.

:thumbsup: :thumbsup: :thumbsup:

Wooo!

Vash, you should sticky this. Not only cause it's likely the only time someone will ever "bow to my wisdom" - - but cause it's such a good explanation. :thumbsup:

I don't know about stickying it...but I might save it back from the Reaper.

One of those moments to remember.