In the Flesh? ? ?
- Thread starter Vic Sixx
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^ Wait, hot women don't shop in supermarkets? 
I hated this episode. I thought Species 8472 were one of the most interesting species ever on Trek but by the end of this episode they were just another lot of changelings.
I agree with you that "In the Flesh" was in keeping with the spirit of Trek. However, the episode did also defang Species 8472. One of the things that made them interesting to me was they had a very clear goal in mind in "Scorpion": the elimination of lesser species.
I liked their alieness, their unity of purpose. That made them more interesting to me instead of a group of aliens masquerading as humans-how many times has that been done on Star Trek? Or that the crew talks their way out of a fight...again.
I never got why Species 8472 went through all that hassle to begin with. Of course Voyager had the Borg nanoprobes, but one ship couldn't have taken out a fleet of bioships. Why not just bum rush Voyager and pull the information they needed from their minds? Once they saw that Earth didn't possess any of those nanoprobes, let the invasion commence.
I agree with the comment that Specie 8472 was turned into Changelings. But at least the Changelings maintained their alienness and their kickassery right up to the end.
Sidenote: I always thought it would've been cooler if Species 8472 had destroyed the Borg and become the big bad on VOY anyway. I really think they had to potential to be a kind of major threat level foe none of the Trek's had before. But VOY flubbed it again. That's why "In the Flesh" pisses me off, despite the great guest cast. They pissed away another opportunity, just like with the Vidiians, Voth, and the Vaadwaur.
Oh, I certainly prefer that over the crew fighting their way out of a talk! How many times do we see that in television? Or real life, for that matter.
I guess I never was impressed with the potential of the 8472 as an adversary. No chance of seeing David Warner or Marc Alaimo emote behind those masks, for one thing...
Timo Saloniemi
Not a big enough budget to keep them in alien form, I would guess.freak said:
This episode got me thinking more about Species 8472 and wondering why they were posing as humans in the first place?
Anyway, good episode, although I could have done without that stupid Kate Vernon.
What?!?! You make it sound like they're some evil alien Hitler type race. They don't actively seek to destroy those they consider "lesser". It was the goal they decided to jump to after having been attacked first and only with regard to our non-fluidic realm (who's to say there aren't lesser beings within their own fludic space?). Being a completely alien species that lived in a realm that didn't have any species that were like those in our realm, they assumed that since one of "our" kind attacked them that they needed to destroy all of our kind in order to prevent further attacks on and incursions into their realm.
Aliens masquerading as human might be old hat, but then again just about EVERY concept in Sci-Fi is old and reused. Species 8472's reason for doing so was perfectly logical and was executed in a way that was the very spirit of what Trek apparently stands for.
How'd you not get that? They stated it very explicitly in the episode. They did it because Voyager had a VERY devastating means by which to destroy them. This means that since Voyager had it and (from their perspective) came up with it fairly rapidly and gave it freely to the Borg, then it stands to reason that the rest of humanity and lord-knows who else would be able to come up with the same weapon. The 8472-Boothby said specifically that the weapon "scares the hell out of us".
Look at it in terms of ourselves. Let's say (random tiny aggressive country) came up with some ridiculously devastating means by which to keep us out of their country and potentially had plans to invade us with it. We'd need a more subtle means by which infiltrate them than a direct war, since that'd be quashed instantly. It makes perfect sense that they'd try to get into the human psyche and masquerade as humans as a means of infiltration, since a direct war was made impossible by Voyager's weapon. (Again, remember 8472 doesn't know that Voyager is alone out there, nor do they necessarily know that nanoprobes are exclusively Borg tech, nor do they know what further tech the federation might have at their disposal that could potentially be worse than Voyager's weapon.) Imagine, if Voyager a lone ship could produce such devastation what would happen if the entirety of the Federation's resources were at their disposal.
It is this extreme fear of the unknown that makes that episode so fantastic, because it places an extremely alien species in a VERY human scenario and directly reflects back on us in this regard.
I disagree. For as good as DS9 was and the Changelings were interesting, they were quite idiotic when it came to perpetrating as Humans/Romulans/Klingons. Because the Changelings when in those forms thought of themselves as changelings and didn't try very hard to actually BE Human/Romulan/Klingon/et al. 8472, was being adamant with it's people about actually BEING human, not allowing them to revert back, forcing them to sleep even though they didn't have to, not allowing them to use their telepathy.
Just like their fear was a statement that people shouldn't be so afraid of the unknown, their actually BEING human was a statement that in order to truly understand the other side you have to "walk a mile in their shoes" (sound familiar?).
If this episode had any downsides, to me, it was the fact that 8472 didn't get a chance to live as humans for longer than they did. Because I think just the experience alone would have taught them that an invasion of the Federation and destroying them all would be a bad idea, because Humans aren't as bad as they originally thought.
Hmm. Ok, based on this and the "kickassery" comment above, it seems we seek different things in our Trek. I like something a bit more substantial. But to each his/her own, I suppose.
Kes, apparently.
"They're in a region of space where they're all alone, nothing else lives there."
So I guess all the more reason for them to sort of make the assumption that everything in our galaxy is Hegemonic and that in order to destroy the "Borg" threat they need to eliminate the entire galaxy.
I think the premise of the episode was fine but the execution was a little strained. It just didn't "feel" right to have Boothby actually being an 8472 and they were a little too Human-like by the end. Also they had a lot of knowledge about Starfleet... where did they get that information?
In the end I would rather have the species work and talk themselves out of conflict rather than having kewl explosions every episode and blowing aliens to kingdom come to resolve their problems... which oddly enough is what Voyager has been accused of. You can't have it both ways and call it mindless special effects and explosions AND call it too "pacifistic and talky" at the same time.
I think the premise of the episode was fine but the execution was a little strained. It just didn't "feel" right to have Boothby actually being an 8472 and they were a little too Human-like by the end. Also they had a lot of knowledge about Starfleet... where did they get that information?
In the end I would rather have the species work and talk themselves out of conflict rather than having kewl explosions every episode and blowing aliens to kingdom come to resolve their problems... which oddly enough is what Voyager has been accused of. You can't have it both ways and call it mindless special effects and explosions AND call it too "pacifistic and talky" at the same time.
^^It didn't feel right having Boothby as their leader.
Boothby is a nobody. He was only important to Picard. Janeway never seemed like the type to pay him any mind. Janeway even implied in Voy. first season that she doesn't get close to very many people, which is why she felt a deep need to get to know her crew this time.
Why was he suddenly so important of a figure to 8472?
Boothby is a nobody. He was only important to Picard. Janeway never seemed like the type to pay him any mind. Janeway even implied in Voy. first season that she doesn't get close to very many people, which is why she felt a deep need to get to know her crew this time.
Why was he suddenly so important of a figure to 8472?
I don't think Boothby was so much the important one as it was the specific member of 8472 that portrayed him was the leader of that faction of the 8472 people.
But even if Boothby was deemed important to 8472, he'd be the ideal person to replace on Earth if time came to do so. He has a much wider field of influence than anybody else at Starfleet (what with so many people trusting him and asking his advice, including those in command), and if he acted a little differently most people wouldn't notice as much (or possibly wouldn't care at all). As opposed to an Admiral who suddenly acts differently and everyone's asking questions.
But even if Boothby was deemed important to 8472, he'd be the ideal person to replace on Earth if time came to do so. He has a much wider field of influence than anybody else at Starfleet (what with so many people trusting him and asking his advice, including those in command), and if he acted a little differently most people wouldn't notice as much (or possibly wouldn't care at all). As opposed to an Admiral who suddenly acts differently and everyone's asking questions.
LightningStorm, you make some good points. However I disagree with your disgreements of my original post.
Despite the reasons why Species 8472 decided to wage war on inferior species, it was clearly stated in "Scorpion pt. 1" by Kes that this was their goal. They could've just restricted it to the Borg, since the Borg attacked them first, however I got the impression that they planned to purge the entire Delta Quadrant, if not our whole galaxy. I liked the idea of a villian/enemy that can't be bargained with like the original Borg were, or the Terminator. It ups the ante, it forces the hero to go to another level to defeat the enemy, to perhaps go to some dark places that might have potential for character growth/devolution, i.e. character growth.
You are right about Sci-fi often reusing stuff. But that doesn't excuse the fact that it was old hat, and a bit too similar to what DS9 was doing. Why not try to push the envelope a little, put a new twist on it. Or go in a different direction? That was one of my gripes about VOY as a series. Not taking enough chances or risks. Playing it too safe.
Very good points you made about why Species 8472 didn't attack Voyager. Of course I alluded to the fact that they feared the nanoprobes Voyager possessed. But I ask you, if Species 8472 could go through all of the trouble of building the terrasphere and disguising themselves as perhaps real Starfleet officers or humans, we know that Boothby was real, then wouldn't they already know, or have been capable of finding out that Voyager was out there alone and that Starfleet didn't possess Borg nanoprobes? It took a lot of spying obviously to get the info to build the replica of Starfleet Academy after all. Also, I still believe it could've been easier to perhaps trail Voyager and kidnap a member of the crew, or rip information from Kes's or maybe even Tuvok's mind about Voyager's capabilities and intent.
I don't think the Changelings were idiotic at all in portraying humans, Klingons, Romulans, etc. They were quite effective. With Changeling-Lovok, they decimated the Obsidian Order, Tal Shiar. With Changeling-Martok they drove the Federation and Klingons to war. The Changeling-Ambassador almost started a second war between the Federation and the Tzenkethi. With Changeling-Bashir they came very close to destroying Bajor and DS9. Not to mention they spread fear and distrust among the Alpha Quadrant powers that severely hampered the early war effort against the Dominion.
The Changelings never tried to be human/humanoid because they hated and feared the 'solids'. They had clear objectives for the most part and they sought to carry them out.
I stand by my kickassery statement because I want to see my heroes be pushed to the limit, and overcome the challenge. But in order to do that and have the audience care, you have to have some very tough villians. With VOY I kept waiting to feel the suspense and I'll admit it now-fear I had when the Borg first appeared in "Q Who" or when they invaded the AQ in "BOBW." It was the same feeling I got when the Jem'Hadar made the kamikaze run on the Odyssey in "The Jem'Hadar." It was an oh shit moment. I came close to feeling that when Species 8472 appeared in "Scorpion." But that feeling quickly faded away when VOY didn't do anything with them, and then gave us "In the Flesh," which IMO was a lackluster way for them to go out. Sometimes you aren't going to find common ground. Sometimes you have to kill or be killed. Now, I would've loved to see how Janeway dealt with that type of situation.
VOY had good potential villians, but they never fully developed them, or pushed some like the Kazon over others that had the potential to be more long-lasting and memorable.
Despite the reasons why Species 8472 decided to wage war on inferior species, it was clearly stated in "Scorpion pt. 1" by Kes that this was their goal. They could've just restricted it to the Borg, since the Borg attacked them first, however I got the impression that they planned to purge the entire Delta Quadrant, if not our whole galaxy. I liked the idea of a villian/enemy that can't be bargained with like the original Borg were, or the Terminator. It ups the ante, it forces the hero to go to another level to defeat the enemy, to perhaps go to some dark places that might have potential for character growth/devolution, i.e. character growth.
You are right about Sci-fi often reusing stuff. But that doesn't excuse the fact that it was old hat, and a bit too similar to what DS9 was doing. Why not try to push the envelope a little, put a new twist on it. Or go in a different direction? That was one of my gripes about VOY as a series. Not taking enough chances or risks. Playing it too safe.
Very good points you made about why Species 8472 didn't attack Voyager. Of course I alluded to the fact that they feared the nanoprobes Voyager possessed. But I ask you, if Species 8472 could go through all of the trouble of building the terrasphere and disguising themselves as perhaps real Starfleet officers or humans, we know that Boothby was real, then wouldn't they already know, or have been capable of finding out that Voyager was out there alone and that Starfleet didn't possess Borg nanoprobes? It took a lot of spying obviously to get the info to build the replica of Starfleet Academy after all. Also, I still believe it could've been easier to perhaps trail Voyager and kidnap a member of the crew, or rip information from Kes's or maybe even Tuvok's mind about Voyager's capabilities and intent.
I don't think the Changelings were idiotic at all in portraying humans, Klingons, Romulans, etc. They were quite effective. With Changeling-Lovok, they decimated the Obsidian Order, Tal Shiar. With Changeling-Martok they drove the Federation and Klingons to war. The Changeling-Ambassador almost started a second war between the Federation and the Tzenkethi. With Changeling-Bashir they came very close to destroying Bajor and DS9. Not to mention they spread fear and distrust among the Alpha Quadrant powers that severely hampered the early war effort against the Dominion.
The Changelings never tried to be human/humanoid because they hated and feared the 'solids'. They had clear objectives for the most part and they sought to carry them out.
I stand by my kickassery statement because I want to see my heroes be pushed to the limit, and overcome the challenge. But in order to do that and have the audience care, you have to have some very tough villians. With VOY I kept waiting to feel the suspense and I'll admit it now-fear I had when the Borg first appeared in "Q Who" or when they invaded the AQ in "BOBW." It was the same feeling I got when the Jem'Hadar made the kamikaze run on the Odyssey in "The Jem'Hadar." It was an oh shit moment. I came close to feeling that when Species 8472 appeared in "Scorpion." But that feeling quickly faded away when VOY didn't do anything with them, and then gave us "In the Flesh," which IMO was a lackluster way for them to go out. Sometimes you aren't going to find common ground. Sometimes you have to kill or be killed. Now, I would've loved to see how Janeway dealt with that type of situation.
VOY had good potential villians, but they never fully developed them, or pushed some like the Kazon over others that had the potential to be more long-lasting and memorable.
Yes, the exact quote was "The weak will perish." But what you are saying means nothing, because to them we are no different than the Borg. Especially since the Borg themselves do have HUMANS within them. From 8472's perspective Borg = Humans = Klingons = Kazon = Ocampa = Romulan = Breen = Cardassian = Romulan = Vulcan = Andorian = Etc. There are no significant differences between us and them. Differences? Yes, from 8472's perspective, however there are none. It is clear that their motivations are to purge this galaxy of anything that is could be a threat to them. Was it a ridiculously huge conclusion to jump to? Absolutely! But again FROM THEIR perspective of EXTREME FEAR of the UNKNOWN it is perfectly reasonable to do that.
Look at it like this. We are to them as Cockroaches are to us. We kill Roaches with wild abandon, if we could we'd likely wipe them all out. But Roaches don't have a means by which to attack us in any effective manner, and when we kill them we don't care that there are 3500 species of cockroach on the planet and the ones that annoy you most happen to be species #2932, if we see on that is species #2002 we don't care, we don't readily see the difference, we kill it.
And let's face it, cockroaches aren't unknown to us so even this is a weak comparison, but it gets the point across.
And you don't see how character growth can come out of any other type of hero/villain interaction? Being forced to bargain with the unbargainable and succeeding!? That's the very height of character development for this crew. Janeway and crew learned how to do something they couldn't do before. They found a way to resolve something without violence for a change. Voyager spent the better part of the series shooting its way through the Delta Quadrant.
What?? So wait, you must not like Trek at all. Because Enterprise did the same stuff everybody else did. Voyager did too. DS9 did too. TNG did too. Yep even TOS was rehashing of old Sci-Fi concepts.
As for what DS9 was doing. When in DS9 did aliens from another universe replicate Starfleet HQ and try anywhere near as hard to actually be human? The Changelings in DS9 didn't "practice" to be human, they just went and did it with all of their arrogance. Species 8472 did it intelligently, if they got the opportunity to infiltrate humans they likely wouldn't have gotten caught because they wouldn't have been "acting" anymore.
And this isn't your gripe about any other series? Because nothing about DS9 (I gather from your posts here you rather liked this one) was new either, nor was it revolutionary.
I didn't make any reasons about why they didn't attack Voyager specifically. I posited reasons why they ceased ALL attacks on everyone in the Milky Way after their encounter with Voyager's weapon. It's why they didn't directly attack Earth with full force, instead trying to infiltrate them covertly.
I say again: It is because to them we're all the same. Voyager came up with a weapon in fairly short order that could completely annihilate them. They had no reason to believe someone else couldn't do the same. All they had to go on was that since Voyager did, they tracked down it's homeworld to take out that species first. I also said in my previous post that there is no telling what manner of WORSE weapon Humans might have come up with given all the resources they have. They might not have even needed Nanoprobes to defeat them, it's just what Voyager had on hand at the time. But, let's not forget Starfleet knew about the Borg long before Voyager left, so what makes you think Starfleet couldn't have come up with it too? Nanoprobes can be replicated, so Starfleet technically has a nearly infinite supply just like Voyager did.
With this we are teetering on "what was good to make a good show" vs "what actually made sense". Technically speaking, in all of those situations it was the Klingons, Humans, Cardassians, Romulans etc. that were quite stupid. The changeling had very little idea of the background of the person they took over, and in some cases no idea how that person actually acted and their mannerisms. In a war with SHAPESHIFTERS how do you not notice major changes in personality?
But the stupidity of the race you're impersonating does not excuse your own arrogance of ill preparedness. The simple fact of the matter is that 8472 was going in prepared to BE human, where as the Changelings were there to IMPERSONATE humans and ACT like them the whole time -- guessing and improvising all along the way.
Consider all the various ways sci-fi has shown something pretending to be something else. That first something always gets caught or tips someone off by being just a bit unusual. And that's because they were put in a situation that they couldn't have been put in unless they were actually human or lived like one.
Think about Data in TNG's Time's Arrow for example. He was pretending to be a normal human in the past because androids didn't exist yet on Earth. He lifted something no human could lift because he was used to doing that. He was unprepared to be human. He realized his mistake and pretended pain, but someone who's living to BE human apart of that would be to limit your strength level, and that couldn't have happened to an 8472 because it's apart of what it is to be human. (And this is but one of any number of easy examples.)
Species 8472 also hated and feared humans. They also had clear objectives for the most part and they also sought to carry them out.
The difference however, is the methods the Changelings used were different than that of 8472.
Voyager overcame the challenge. They had never encountered a situation like this so therefore they reached a limit.
The difference is you wanted a more action/violent overcoming of the challenge, than the slow/diplomatic one that was offered. Personal opinion. I say agian. To each his/her own.
Clearly that's not the case. I and other people who liked the outcome are considered audience and we cared and enjoyed it very much. Although, I do disagree with the statement that 8472 isn't a "tough villain." The thing is that their toughness didn't matter. And didn't need to IMO.
Sometimes you do. Sometimes you don't. This was one of the latter.
LightningStorm,
You make some good arguments. But I'm still in disagreement.
Here we go:
First off, that is a good observation that there are human Borg, so I can see your point about Species 8472 seeing the VOY crew, or humans as threats intially. However, the Starfleet replica showed a lot of nuance and detail that would suggest that maybe Species 8472 could tell the difference between Starfleet humans and Borg humans. Esp, by the time they built the thing and perhaps took human captives or stole Starfleet information it could've given them clues that Starfleet wasn't as imperialistic as the Borg were.
Of course their are different ways to accomplish character growth, but I disagree with your assertion that what Janeway did in "In the Flesh" was any different than her negotiating with the Borg in "Scorpion" or the some of the other hostile races she came across. It was more talk. So I don't think the Voyager crew learned anything or did anything differently than we had seen before in the episode. They pretty much were the same people they were before the episode began.
It's really subjective to say that Species 8472 went about replicating humans more intelligently than the Dominion did, or that somehow the Changelings were more arrogant than Species 8472. I think it takes a pretty big ego to consider all other races, at least in the DQ as needing to be eliminated.
We know that the Founders were natural shapeshifters, so they had a lot of practice assuming the forms of other creatures. Species 8472 had to use artificial means to ape the human form, therefore you got to see them practice. Perhaps the Founders needed less practice to mimic humans and other AQ species.
I didn't say Species 8472 wasn't tough. In fact, their toughness, moreso their destructive potential made them interesting to me in "Scorpion", and even the ep. where one was hunted by a Hirogen. I do think that "In the Flesh" defanged them though. The one saving grace was that Boothby led one faction of Species 8472. So there's hope they weren't all neutered.
I never suggested that VOY be new or revolutionary per se, though it could try to do things that at least its sister show wasn't doing, rehashing story lines if you will that DS9 wasn't using at the moment, and then DS9 could in turn do the ones VOY wasn't using. For me its not a matter of originality, it's how you approach the same old stuff. Try to at least put your own spin on it, or do it a little differently. I think Stargate SG-1 has done a fairly good job taking Star Trek plots, ideas and relating them to their universe. Of course, VOY was and is part of the Trek universe. But the Delta Quadrant and a half-non Starfleet crew led to the possibilities of doing things differently than Kirk, Picard, or Sisko might've done. Hell, Sisko did things different inside the Federation at times. And that's what I wanted to see a little more of with the Voyager crew. Pull the gloves off. If I had had my druthers, I would've loved to seen a more toned down, humane version of the Equinox crew.
You make some good arguments. But I'm still in disagreement.
Here we go:
First off, that is a good observation that there are human Borg, so I can see your point about Species 8472 seeing the VOY crew, or humans as threats intially. However, the Starfleet replica showed a lot of nuance and detail that would suggest that maybe Species 8472 could tell the difference between Starfleet humans and Borg humans. Esp, by the time they built the thing and perhaps took human captives or stole Starfleet information it could've given them clues that Starfleet wasn't as imperialistic as the Borg were.
Of course their are different ways to accomplish character growth, but I disagree with your assertion that what Janeway did in "In the Flesh" was any different than her negotiating with the Borg in "Scorpion" or the some of the other hostile races she came across. It was more talk. So I don't think the Voyager crew learned anything or did anything differently than we had seen before in the episode. They pretty much were the same people they were before the episode began.
It's really subjective to say that Species 8472 went about replicating humans more intelligently than the Dominion did, or that somehow the Changelings were more arrogant than Species 8472. I think it takes a pretty big ego to consider all other races, at least in the DQ as needing to be eliminated.
We know that the Founders were natural shapeshifters, so they had a lot of practice assuming the forms of other creatures. Species 8472 had to use artificial means to ape the human form, therefore you got to see them practice. Perhaps the Founders needed less practice to mimic humans and other AQ species.
I didn't say Species 8472 wasn't tough. In fact, their toughness, moreso their destructive potential made them interesting to me in "Scorpion", and even the ep. where one was hunted by a Hirogen. I do think that "In the Flesh" defanged them though. The one saving grace was that Boothby led one faction of Species 8472. So there's hope they weren't all neutered.
I never suggested that VOY be new or revolutionary per se, though it could try to do things that at least its sister show wasn't doing, rehashing story lines if you will that DS9 wasn't using at the moment, and then DS9 could in turn do the ones VOY wasn't using. For me its not a matter of originality, it's how you approach the same old stuff. Try to at least put your own spin on it, or do it a little differently. I think Stargate SG-1 has done a fairly good job taking Star Trek plots, ideas and relating them to their universe. Of course, VOY was and is part of the Trek universe. But the Delta Quadrant and a half-non Starfleet crew led to the possibilities of doing things differently than Kirk, Picard, or Sisko might've done. Hell, Sisko did things different inside the Federation at times. And that's what I wanted to see a little more of with the Voyager crew. Pull the gloves off. If I had had my druthers, I would've loved to seen a more toned down, humane version of the Equinox crew.
My intent wasn't to change your opinion, just to see and understand the other side, and hopefully allow you to see and understand my side.
I think we've succeeded in seeing each other's side, so I'm content now to agree to disagree on the episode.
But there are couple of small things I want to clear up as I don't think I was clear in my wording.
I didn't mean that the Changelings were more arrogant in general (clearly as you point out 8472 was arrogant enough to want to wipe out everyone with very little reason). Just in the way they thought they could just go willy-nilly replacing people without knowing very much about that person's background or even what it means to be human, was a more arrogant way of going about the act of replacing people.
But the fact that 8472 went about it by trying to actually BE human instead of simply imitating them would teach them a great deal more about humans and humanity than would someone simply imitating humans based only on their assumptions about us.
I was not talking about the mere physical look, but the actual actions and feelings and everything it takes to BE human. I can put on a bear costume and look exactly like a real bear, but it wouldn't be the same as if I were to go live as a bear for a couple of years.
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