• Welcome! The TrekBBS is the number one place to chat about Star Trek with like-minded fans.
    If you are not already a member then please register an account and join in the discussion!

In the Flesh - Did anyone else notice...

First and foremost, I feel obligated to point this out: The Federation is Communistic Republic. They don't have currency and seems they prefer to use the barter system outside of their own territory.

Ohh, I get so tired of hearing that nonsensical notion that "no currency" equals "communism." Those are completely different things. Communism is (in theory) an economic system wherein the means of production are owned by the workers and resources are evenly distributed according to need.

The Federation economic system is neither capitalist nor communist, because both of those are economic models relevant to a society where scarcity of resources exists and individuals must perform labor to produce material goods and wealth. Neither of those applies in a replicator-based, post-scarcity economy. In the Federation, resources are abundant and most goods can be obtained nearly effortlessly via replicators. So its economic system would be something never seen to date, because we have never had a post-scarcity, non-labor-driven economy.


Although there doesn't seem to be any information to corroborate this, I've always postulated that replicators essentially pull raw matter of the ship's matter reclamation systems and re-sequences it into the requested item.

Well, yes, that's exactly right. That's explained in the TNG and DS9 Technical Manual books. There's a supply of bulk material that the replicators draw on.
 
Ohh, I get so tired of hearing that nonsensical notion that "no currency" equals "communism." Those are completely different things. Communism is (in theory) an economic system wherein the means of production are owned by the workers and resources are evenly distributed according to need.

The fact is, Gene Roddenberry himself stated the Federation is intended to be a communism. The difference, however, is it not supposed to be a communist society that has the same stigma attached to it when Russia and China attempted to force their countries to become communist societies, it was meant to be the type of communist society that Marx predicted the US and Europe would eventually evolve into.

There is a huge stigma attached to the word "Communism" in the US without understanding the true underlining concepts. You can't have a true communism until society reaches as a whole reaches a point where anyone would offer help to anyone else who is in need and that person would never dream of taking advantage of it.

When China and Russia did it, they created a dictatorship and forced people to accept communism, but the drive for personal gain and personal possession above all others still rung as the default human characteristic from the top of the government all the way down to the bottom. If someone could take advantage of another, they sure as hell did (and do).

You have to keep in mind, Gene was envisioning an idealistic society were everything hit just right. It was meant to be an optimistic view of the future for humanity to strive towards today.

Now you can go back in various series and point out various places where someone said "This cost that", but reality one of the looming problems Star Trek as a whole struggles from is not having a concrete of standards bible that everyone played from when writing for the series. Hell, some standards changed on the fly (Let's not even start with Chief O'Brien's rank for instance). Often getting stuck on contracting information in the series leads towards false assumptions.
 
I liked the episode of DS9 where Sisko threatened to collect back rent from Quark.

But you have to wonder what Sisko would have done with that money once he had it?
 
I liked the episode of DS9 where Sisko threatened to collect back rent from Quark.

But you have to wonder what Sisko would have done with that money once he had it?

In the case of that episode, it's because its a Bajouran Station and they still used money at that point.

The money simply would have gone to which ever Bajouran entity technically owned the station.

There was also onscreen talks about how difficult it would be for Bajour to convert over to a cashless society too.
 
The fact is, Gene Roddenberry himself stated the Federation is intended to be a communism.

Well, since "a communism" isn't even grammatical, those obviously weren't his exact words. And I've been a Trek fan for nearly four decades and I've never heard of such a quote from Roddenberry. Can you provide a source to substantiate that claim, a direct quote from the man himself in which he uses that specific word to describe the Federation?

There's clearly no way an American television producer in the 1960s would've been able to get away with endorsing communism, and it's well-known that Roddenberry was quite a dedicated capitalist, doing whatever he could to make a profit off Star Trek. And of course money and credits were frequently mentioned in TOS. The earliest mention of the Federation as a moneyless society was in The Voyage Home, a film on which Roddenberry was nothing more than a consultant. It wasn't until TNG that any Roddenberry production started speaking in terms of humanity having outgrown the pursuit of wealth. But that alone does not equal communism. On the contrary, communism is very much about the pursuit of material wealth; it's simply that the material wealth is doled out to everyone. A system where people don't actually need material wealth to survive is something entirely different from communism, something Marx never conceived of.


The difference, however, is it not supposed to be a communist society that has the same stigma attached to it when Russia and China attempted to force their countries to become communist societies, it was meant to be the type of communist society that Marx predicted the US and Europe would eventually evolve into.

It can't be communism of any kind because communism is an economic model predicated on scarcity and a labor-based economy. It therefore wouldn't work at all in a post-scarcity, replicator-based society. Yes, communism is a non-capitalist system, but assuming it's the only non-capitalist system that can ever exist is ridiculous. If nobody thought of communism until Marx and Engels came up with it, then doesn't it follow that there could be some other, entirely new economic theory that nobody has thought of yet but that people in the future will invent?


There is a huge stigma attached to the word "Communism" in the US without understanding the true underlining concepts. You can't have a true communism until society reaches as a whole reaches a point where anyone would offer help to anyone else who is in need and that person would never dream of taking advantage of it.

When China and Russia did it, they created a dictatorship and forced people to accept communism, but the drive for personal gain and personal possession above all others still rung as the default human characteristic from the top of the government all the way down to the bottom. If someone could take advantage of another, they sure as hell did (and do).

No actual communist nation has ever existed. The socialist states instituted by self-styled Communist parties were intended as part of a process moving toward the eventual achievement of communism. Marx taught that a society must go through several phases, from agrarian feudalism to industrial capitalism to a socialist dictatorship that redistributes wealth and educates the populace so that the state can eventually dissolve itself and give way to a stateless communist utopia.

The fatal flaw in this, of course, is that it's tragically naive to think that any institution, once given absolute power, would be willing to work toward its own dissolution. That's why these societies always get stuck at the socialist dictatorship stage and never actually progress to true communism. Communism is the goal they're theoretically working toward, not the actual system they employ. (Also, Marx was dead wrong in his assumption that socialist revolutions would happen in industrial capitalist societies; most of them were in agrarian societies.)

Now you can go back in various series and point out various places where someone said "This cost that", but reality one of the looming problems Star Trek as a whole struggles from is not having a concrete of standards bible that everyone played from when writing for the series.

Again, the absence of money does not equal communism, because "communism" does not mean "everything that isn't capitalism." A post-scarcity civilization would have to be based on a new economic theory, not a relic from the 19th century.
 
There was also onscreen talks about how difficult it would be for Bajour to convert over to a cashless society too.
I don't recall this, which episode please?

The trend I noticed is they started to add limits on its overall complexity of what it can replicate. Food has been a big one that we saw as far back as season 2 of TNG.
Sooner than that, first season, episode number six, Lonely Among Us has Riker explaining that the meat that comes out of the replicator is only like meat, but isn't the real thing.

And in episode four of the same season we learn that the replicator can not reproduce certain pharmaceuticals, even when a sample of the real thing is capable of being beamed up.

It's simple logic. Anything that can be replicated is, by definition, useless as currency.
That would depend on how much in the way of assets are consumed in the item's manufacturer, if the warp core had to hypothetically "burn" a kilogram of antimatter to produce a single gram of latinum, to reassemble other materials in a matter stream into latinum, then that would determine the value of that piece of latinum.

If naturally occurring latinum were cheaper to obtain, then replicating latinum would make no sense.

Eventually someone is going to invent a replicator that can replicate latinum and the Ferengi economy is going to be...
Just fine, they would have to replace the latinum in their economic system with something else. Using the example of "Tribbles" the Federation has a method of funds (money) exchange that doesn't involve physical transfers, or apparently even require a object like a debit card, Uhura had no place to carry one (get your mind out of the gutter). Beverly's spoken words "charge it to my account," and her identifying the location of that account "aboard the Enterprise," might be a indication of voice print authorization for funds transfer.
 
Voyager had a complement of 75 shuttles and this is your nitpick...?

:p

Rather, it had the ability to build new shuttles using onboard industrial replication facilities. We saw the process of new shuttle construction in "Extreme Risk" when the Delta Flyer was built, and in the age of replicators it shouldn't be that surprising that they can manufacture anything they need, even shuttlecraft.

It just ignored established canon from 'The Cloud' when Janeway said they only had 38 torpedoes and there was 'no way to replace them once they were gone'.
 
...Except for, say, shopping at the nearest spaceport. Which Janeway had plenty of opportunities for later on.

Timo Saloniemi
 
Voyager had a complement of 75 shuttles and this is your nitpick...?

:p

Rather, it had the ability to build new shuttles using onboard industrial replication facilities. We saw the process of new shuttle construction in "Extreme Risk" when the Delta Flyer was built, and in the age of replicators it shouldn't be that surprising that they can manufacture anything they need, even shuttlecraft.

It just ignored established canon from 'The Cloud' when Janeway said they only had 38 torpedoes and there was 'no way to replace them once they were gone'.
IMO, I think that quote becomes null and void due to B'Elanna in "Dreadnaut" showing and telling us she has extensive knowledge in torpedo design and programming. I think it's logical to assume she was the answer to that problem. She's an Engineer and former terrorist and she can't design a bomb? Tuvok is Chief of Security and he's not trained to create one? If Engineers and Security aren't building these things, then who is?
Doesn't "Omega Directive" also show Harry & Tuvok building a torpedo warhead?

Trek canon also said that joined Trills can't use a transporter but we saw Dax beam down to a surface a few times. So much like this, the writers changed their own canon.
 
If you are not already a member then please register an account and join in the discussion!

Sign up / Register


Back
Top