In The 24th Century, How Did They Do It?

[Deks]

They invented replicators.

No... the changes they made came well before invention of replicators or transporters (in the 50 years that followed FC with the Vulcans).

They borrowed the Vulcan replicators

Vulcans didn't have replicators at the time.
No one in the Federation probably did until the early-mid 24th century.
Food dispensers existed as early as the NX-01 era, and those were purely based on breaking down matter into base elements and reconstituting them into something new (recycling) - which probably existed even before NX-01 was launched - it makes sense given that Federation technology effectively produces 0 waste seeing how everything is recycled (including energy) - and it only makes sense.

We have mountains of trash on this planet that could have been recycled into needed materials/resources LONG ago. It's not done on a large scale due to the problem we know as 'money' (for the most part, it's all 'show and tell' - to make it seem as if we are doing something and those who use it in the industry, often make cheap products that don't last long because they were too lazy to make it right - just because you recycle a material doesn't mean it will inherently be lousy - that is determined how much quality/effort has gone into the process - and seeing how companies are 'cheap' and look to spend as little as possible, THAT is why we get shoddy products...).
From a resource/technological/manpower point of view, it's more than doable.

Replicators convert energy into matter. Same process that occurs in supernovas called 'nucleosynthesis', albeit on a smaller scale when replicators are in play.
Doesn't matter though, since energy is something Federation and it's ships (usually) have in abundance.

 

[T'Girl]

... numerous people would work on all kinds of 'menial work' because they enjoy it ...

But to have that work, the people who volunteer have to be there on a consistant basis, however without wages there is no compelling reason to appear on a regular basis. What are they going to do? Fire you? You can't run a business without a workforce.

Same old problem with this basic idea, what happens when people stop volunteering?

And yes, humans stopped using money way before replicators were invented (in the late 22nd century per Voyager - which fits into the time-frame of when the Federation was founded).

Except they didn't stop using money, there are certainly plenty of referrences in TOS of money use, and later series too ... and yes INSIDE the Federation. Now if Tom Paris were referring to currency going the way of the dinosauars, that would make sense, where as money as a concept disappearing doesn't.

A complete switch to electronic fund transfers. No physical money.

 

[Crazy Eddie]

How did they do it?

They invented replicators.

No... the changes they made came well before invention of replicators or transporters (in the 50 years that followed FC with the Vulcans).

Not really. Earth was doing BETTER, but was hardly paradise in the 22nd century. Actually it had probably gotten to the point of industrializing and fully developing almost all of its population centers without a huge amount of social/economic injustice.

Replicator technology probably exists in some form or another in the 23rd century, likely in a form too large and inefficient to be carried on a starship. By the 22nd century, the most you can say is that nobody is starving or fighting violent turf wars over local water/oil/grain resources. The same can presently be said for Ohio, but that hardly qualifies as "paradise."

No... the changes they made came well before invention of replicators or transporters (in the 50 years that followed FC with the Vulcans).

They borrowed the Vulcan replicators

Vulcans didn't have replicators at the time.
No one in the Federation probably did until the early-mid 24th century.
Food dispensers existed as early as the NX-01 era, and those were purely based on breaking down matter into base elements and reconstituting them into something new (recycling)

Which is exactly what replicators do, just very very efficiently. Early 22nd century replicators were probably nanotech based: dump your garbage in a vat of gobblers, they break down the stuff into simple proteins and raw materials and then extrude the slurry into another machine that remakes it into something new. By the 2250s century these machines are efficient enough to make sandwiches, chicken soup and coffee; by the 2280s they've combined it with transporter technology, making the replicas even more convincing.

 

[Nightdiamond]

Except they didn't stop using money, there are certainly plenty of referrences in TOS of money use, and later series too ... and yes INSIDE the Federation. Now if Tom Paris were referring to currency going the way of the dinosauars, that would make sense, where as money as a concept disappearing doesn't.

Isn't currency money, being paper, metal, digital or otherwise?

Jake didn't have currency or money. If money went the way of the dinosaur, on earth, as Paris claimed, then that meant that humans don't have currency even among st themselves.

Deks wrote: Why wouldn't a restaurant be open and give food for free in a system where money doesn't exist?
It's a place where people come to socialize (much like the mess-hall on starships) and eat food prepared by Sisko's dad in his own way (and he does it because he enjoys doing it - never-mind if there's 'hard work' in question - we've seen evidence that some folks like to do things with their own hands without too much technological aid).

True, but it would be strange. I've seen articles where the author wondered why people would put up with the aggravation of certain jobs in the 24th century--when there is no money or reason too.

Except, that 24th century humans are very very nice.

 

[The Castellan]

Whatever it is, life in Federation's a hell of a lot better than what we have now, and f given a chance to be in such a world, I'd go, without hesitation, give our world the finger, and be off.

 

[Mysterion]

Ain't gonna happen. Thing I liked about TOS, and a point missed by pretty-much every incarnation of Trek since TOS was this: Humanity isn't perfect, but we're out here in the stars trying to learn to be better.

Totally mis-handled from TNG onwards where it mutated into this bland beige utopian drivel where everyone is happy, and no one wants anything, and there's no inter-personal conflicts, yadda, yadda, yadda.

1960s-Roddenberry's people trying to improve themselves are a lot more interesting than 1980s-Roddenberry and his perfect plastic people.

 

[Deks]

True, but it would be strange. I've seen articles where the author wondered why people would put up with the aggravation of certain jobs in the 24th century--when there is no money or reason too.

Except, that 24th century humans are very very nice.

Well, there are a few things to keep in mind.
The concept of a restaurant (along with numerous other aspects) could be considered 'traditional' and as such survived in a money-less system as a place where it simply does what it does, only without money.

I would imagine that aggravation on the job is much less problematic to deal with.
For example, those who 'run' the establishment would have certain expectations, but probably wouldn't force those who work there into exhaustion and whatnot - plus some technology is bound to be used like it is today.

We've seen SF ships having multiple shifts in a single day (4 sound about right).
That would probably require of people to invest about 6 hours (or less) into the overall work (when you take into account smaller breaks).

SF officers can experience larger amounts of stress though because of situations that could be seen as a bit more 'pressing' (such as life-threatening ones).

A lot of folks coming into work show general enthusiasm though and seem to enjoy working long hours.

 

[Hartzilla2007]

Ain't gonna happen. Thing I liked about TOS, and a point missed by pretty-much every incarnation of Trek since TOS was this: Humanity isn't perfect, but we're out here in the stars trying to learn to be better.

Totally mis-handled from TNG onwards where it mutated into this bland beige utopian drivel where everyone is happy, and no one wants anything, and there's no inter-personal conflicts, yadda, yadda, yadda.

1960s-Roddenberry's people trying to improve themselves are a lot more interesting than 1980s-Roddenberry and his perfect plastic people.

Agreed

 

[T'Girl]

... humans stopped using money way before replicators were invented (in the late 22nd century per Voyager - which fits into the time-frame of when the Federation was founded).

Ahh, but the problem with that is this:

Kirk: " The Federation has invested a great deal of money in our training. They're about due for a small return."

Tom Paris's statement is nonsense in term of the disappearance of money, unless he was referring to the disappearance solely of the physical medium of exchange. Because after the time period Paris spoke of, there continued to be the use of money.

Why wouldn't a restaurant be open and give food for free in a system where money doesn't exist?

Because money does exist, and Joseph Sisko has a business to run.

Food dispensers existed as early as the NX-01 era, and those were purely based on breaking down matter into base elements and reconstituting them into something new

The impression I received was that the mess hall of the NX-01, had a nearby kitchen (we saw both Hoshi and Riker in it), the slots seen in the wall were loaded by the ship's cook staff (there definitely was a chef).

Replicators convert energy into matter. Same process that occurs in supernovas called 'nucleosynthesis', albeit on a smaller scale when replicators are in play.

Nucleosynthesis is where simple chemical elements, are combined into more complex chemical elements, in the interiors of stars.

At no point is energy converted into matter.

The concept of a restaurant ...

A restaurant is a a commercial establishment. Even with "pay what you want," restaurant, there has to be more money coming in, than going out in the form of food and services. Otherwise it goes out of business.

If Joseph is simply cooking food in his own home and inviting people in, and no money being paid, then it isn't a "restaurant." And they are not his customers.

But in the show, it is called a "restaurant."

 

[Nightdiamond]

Here's direct proof that humans don't get paid and that they don't use money --at all;

PICARD: The economics of the future are somewhat different. ...You see, money doesn't exist in the twenty-fourth century.
LILY: No money! That means you don't get paid.
PICARD: The acquisition of wealth is no longer the driving force in our lives...

They don't even use money among themselves..the best I can interpret, is that they either are giving away the food for free, or pretending to charge for the items (and paying their employees).

The Castellan wrote: Whatever it is, life in Federation's a hell of a lot better than what we have now, and f given a chance to be in such a world, I'd go, without hesitation, give our world the finger, and be off.

That's generally my attitude... Although the 24th century looks kind of boring , they still don't have the headaches we do. Some humans (and even some animals) suck.

Mysterion wrote: Ain't gonna happen. Thing I liked about TOS, and a point missed by pretty-much every incarnation of Trek since TOS was this: Humanity isn't perfect, but we're out here in the stars trying to learn to be better.

TOS was clever--it talked about unity and solving future problems, without too much propaganda. It left it up to the fans to see that humans had changed for the better. It had its weaknesses though.

TOS also had a few Utopian messages in it IMO:

Fake Lincoln: What a charming Negress. Oh, forgive me, my dear. I know that in my time some used that term as a description of property.
Uhura: But why should I object to that term, sir? You see, in our century we've learned not to fear words.

I call it an Utopian idea......., know what it implies? That humans no longer get insulted at all in the future. Not by words.

It's a really nice idea, something to wish for, maybe strive for, but is it realistic?

 

[Hartzilla2007]

know what it implies? That humans no longer get insulted at all in the future. Not by words.

The Trouble with Tribbles disagrees with you.

 

[horatio83]

Because money does exist, and Joseph Sisko has a business to run.

No, he doesn't. He loves to cook, that's why does his job.
Same with Kirk. He did not strive to become captain because he got enough Fed credits to buy or rent that sweet apartment we see in TWOK, he strove to become captain because "commanding a starship is [his] first, best destiny; anything else [would be] a waste of material".

To speak more economically about this issue, there have been two changes. First, ordinary technological change, the production of basic goods has become less expensive. Second, a changes of household preferences, people do not demand luxury goods anymore. The few who do like Harry Mudd are portrayed as criminals. That's why nonpecuniary work incentives have become more relevant.
By the way, in real world history you can observe the same thing. Two generations ago people basically did any work, today at least middle class people care about aka can afford the luxury of choosing an occupation which they like.

This merely applies for the "core" of the Federation, the "outer rim" is more about a tough settler life. Note tough that unlike during the settlement of the New World it is not economic fundamentals (overpopulation / shortage of land in Europe which implied that the wage to land rent ratio was fairly slow drove people to America where it was just the other way around, land was ample, labour was scarce so wages were higher than in the Old World) which drives people there. Earth is not an overcrowded cyperpunkish world, it is paradise. So the people who do colonize do it for the sake of itself, because they enjoy the adventure or the creation of something new.

 

[Greg Cox]

know what it implies? That humans no longer get insulted at all in the future. Not by words.

The Trouble with Tribbles disagrees with you.

Take that back, you Denebian slime-devil!

 

[Sindatur]

know what it implies? That humans no longer get insulted at all in the future. Not by words.

The Trouble with Tribbles disagrees with you.

Take that back, you Denebian slime-devil!

"Did I say, Should be Hauling Garbage? I meant, Should be hauled away AS Garbage"

 

[Greg Cox]

The Trouble with Tribbles disagrees with you.

Take that back, you Denebian slime-devil!

"Did I say, Should be Hauling Garbage? I meant, Should be hauled away AS Garbage"

"You cold-hearted, green-blooded hobgoblin!"

 

[Arpy]

Ultimately I think what they and we will learn is to be more well-rounded human beings. It's about maturity. Maturity isn't something forced upon you by mother or teacher or whomever because they're capricious gods stifling your play, but learned by you (those too few who actually learn in) to understand yourself and optimize your participation in the greater world beyond it.

Robber barons would work children to death for personal wealth and society benefited. We do things differently now and everybody benefits more. And don't go quoting The Agony and Ecstasy of Steve Jobs - it happens less today than it did then, so quit negating that progress and try adding to it.

 

[Nightdiamond]

Ok, so maybe Uhura was full of it too.

Humans have a reputation for using racial slurs against other species, "Like Spoon head". Another one of the Fed's dirty secrets, humans are fine with each other, but racist against aliens?

Arpy:Ultimately I think what they and we will learn is to be more well-rounded human beings. It's about maturity.

Lol...
Well, creating a Trek-like 'utopian society' is possible today.
The only problem is that you'd need to keep greedy people in check.

I don't see how sometimes. We have the ability to solve problems now? But it is the resistance to anything new that is the part of the problem.

Healthcare is very expensive, some people have struggle,worry or go without it. It causes economic problems.

It is said Universal Health Care would be able to provide affordable health care for all citizens. Everybody. It would lower cost, almost to the point of being free.

That's very Federation-ish.

But look at the resistance, at least in the US. Heated debates. Even some paranoia. Arguments.

Like for example, the lack of a higher income, would leave doctors no real incentive to provide top care to patients. Hence poor quality health care. Long waiting times.

(The US is supposed to have the highest quality healthcare in the world)

So how would future doctors perform --there's no real incentive to give quality care to people, because in the 24th century they don't get paid anyway? Just volunteers?

It's an example of a possible way to solve a major economic problem, while providing for all. But some say it has hidden dangers.

Maybe it's better the way it is now?

 

[The Castellan]

Ok, so maybe Uhura was full of it too.

Humans have a reputation for using racial slurs against other species, "Like Spoon head". Another one of the Fed's dirty secrets, humans are fine with each other, but racist against aliens?

Arpy:Ultimately I think what they and we will learn is to be more well-rounded human beings. It's about maturity.

Lol...
Well, creating a Trek-like 'utopian society' is possible today.
The only problem is that you'd need to keep greedy people in check.

I don't see how sometimes. We have the ability to solve problems now? But it is the resistance to anything new that is the part of the problem.

Healthcare is very expensive, some people have struggle,worry or go without it. It causes economic problems.

It is said Universal Health Care would be able to provide affordable health care for all citizens. Everybody. It would lower cost, almost to the point of being free.

That's very Federation-ish.

But look at the resistance, at least in the US. Heated debates. Even some paranoia. Arguments.

Like for example, the lack of a higher income, would leave doctors no real incentive to provide top care to patients. Hence poor quality health care. Long waiting times.

(The US is supposed to have the highest quality healthcare in the world)

So how would future doctors perform --there's no real incentive to give quality care to people, because in the 24th century they don't get paid anyway? Just volunteers?

It's an example of a possible way to solve a major economic problem, while providing for all. But some say it has hidden dangers.

Maybe it's better the way it is now?

Pfft, doubt it. Besides, being in a world where military/defense gets the biggest chunk of money/resources...

...I'll take the Trek world any day. I'd have more faith in McCoy or Crusher or Phlox as opposed to some guy who's essentially a salesman in a white coat and in a drug industry that makes more money with everyone sick as opposed to a healthy world...so I'll go with the Trek world. Though I bet the Ferengi would LOVE our world.

 

[Deks]

Ok, so maybe Uhura was full of it too.

Humans have a reputation for using racial slurs against other species, "Like Spoon head". Another one of the Fed's dirty secrets, humans are fine with each other, but racist against aliens?

Arpy:Ultimately I think what they and we will learn is to be more well-rounded human beings. It's about maturity.

Lol...
Well, creating a Trek-like 'utopian society' is possible today.
The only problem is that you'd need to keep greedy people in check.

I don't see how sometimes. We have the ability to solve problems now? But it is the resistance to anything new that is the part of the problem.

Healthcare is very expensive, some people have struggle,worry or go without it. It causes economic problems.

It is said Universal Health Care would be able to provide affordable health care for all citizens. Everybody. It would lower cost, almost to the point of being free.

That's very Federation-ish.

But look at the resistance, at least in the US. Heated debates. Even some paranoia. Arguments.

Like for example, the lack of a higher income, would leave doctors no real incentive to provide top care to patients. Hence poor quality health care. Long waiting times.

(The US is supposed to have the highest quality healthcare in the world)

So how would future doctors perform --there's no real incentive to give quality care to people, because in the 24th century they don't get paid anyway? Just volunteers?

It's an example of a possible way to solve a major economic problem, while providing for all. But some say it has hidden dangers.

Maybe it's better the way it is now?

I agree, 'greed' is a part of the problem.
The whole mentality and approach to life is the issue with the population at large (not just the US).
It's been droned into their skulls that the current way is the only way.
They don't try to think critically, they don't try to change things.
And why should they?
From their point of view, they placed people in power to do those things for them... except that it's those very same people who are gaining in power and instead of working in the interests of the population, they have their own agenda.

The technology we use today is in a lot of cases decades behind where it should be.
Why?
Profit and money.
Yes, we have had the ability to solve worlds problems for a long time now, but when you live in a world that grew accustomed to doing things one way, and not really caring one way or the other... it's a problem.

And when you try to explain a different point of view to others, they laugh at you, they ridicule you... until, the reality of the situation hits them.
Then they resist... until they find themselves neck deep into problems that they finally reach the third stage: 'acceptance'.

This BBS is full of such examples.
Have you seen jumping to conclusions on limited information in other threads?
That's to name a few.

A lot of people in US oppose Universal health care because their perception is: 'why should my hard earned money care for those who munch off the system?'.
Lol... I'm currently in between jobs (actually work as a freelancer), not in the US, do not receive benefits and I AVOID going to the doctor.
I would only consider the latter in an emergency, but for over 95% of things, you don't need a doctor, or drugs (of any kind).
The amount of people going to the ER or to the doctor for every single thing (and plucking themselves with pills in the process that slowly poison their bodies) is actually the reason why costs are high (that and the ability from the industry to charge insane prices).

Let's take money out of the equation though.
From a technological, resource and manpower point of view, we can do well over 10x better than what we are doing now as a society.
Bring money into the picture and you look at EVERYTHING through 'value' and trying to do things 'cheaply' (which if executed badly- and it often IS) results in major problems - that, and because in such a system, the welfare of people is not top priority... it's making money/profit - everything else is secondary and/or a side-effect.

As others mentioned, most of Trek humans merely 'grew up' (until DS9 started degrading them down to the mentality of morons we have in the early 21st century).

 

[Sci]

(The US is supposed to have the highest quality healthcare in the world)

I mean, in what sense do you mean "have?" It's true that the best quality health care can be found in the United States -- if you can pay. But that doesn't mean that the overall system is the best -- in fact, overall U.S. health results consistently rate much worse, in general, than in countries with universal health care.

It's sort of like the difference between saying, "Our school has the highest-achieving students in the state!" and saying, "Our school achieves the highest average test scores in the state!" You could have a school where 95% of the kids get Cs and Ds on their tests, but 5% get A+s, going up against schools where no one gets an A+, but 80% get As and 20% get B+s. So, yeah, your school might have the highest-achieving students, but that doesn't mean your school's overall study body is highest-achieving.