... neither of which are related to my analogy, which argued that Section 31, as of 2375, was at the point in its story where it had yet to be uncovered and was thus the equivalent of a conspiracy within the Navy that had yet to be uncovered.
Of course they were discovered. Sisko was even asking about the organization to the Federation who didn't deny their existence. I honestly can't see your point here. Section 31 are known.
No. Sisko reported Bashir's discovery of Section 31 to Starfleet Command, and someone at Starfleet Command was covering it up. In other words, no, Section 31 has not yet been discovered, because only a few people outside of the organization know about them, and there is no evidence that anyone inside Starfleet Command other than the person(s) that Sisko reported them to and the person(s) who covered it up -- who may be the same person(s) are aware of it.
It would be as though a junior officer on a naval base in Dubai discovers the existence of a conspiracy within the Navy, reports it to his superior officer, who then reports it to Naval HQ at the Pentagon, but the person at the Pentagon it is reported to is a member of the conspiracy. No one in Congress knows about it, the President remains unaware, and the general public remains unaware. You cannot yet argue that it has been genuinely uncovered.
In essence, I was arguing that you can't indict an entire society for not acting to correct something that hasn't been detected yet (except by a few individuals who lack evidence and lack the appearance of respectability).
It's not a society that's at fault. It's the Federation (not all it's citizens) and Starfleet.
Fair enough. But I would argue that we can't even say with certainty that the Federation Council or Federation President are aware of Section 31's existence, or that they are willing to acknowledge it to themselves.
You also seem to imply that Bashir lacks credibility which is just speculation. It's never been shown.
It was shown all throughout "Inquisition," and it's a reasonable inference. I would be very surprised if Bashir has a good reputation with Starfleet Command and the Federation government.
Are you asking what the illegally engineered part has to do with anything? I'm suggesting that because the Federation's leaders are imperfect, they may well be inclined to disbelieve in the existence of Section 31 because of both skeletons in the closet of the guy who's trying to bring them to light and because Section 31's existence is something that's so far outside of the mainstream of Federation political culture that they may not be able to accept that it's real. It would, again, be a bit like someone accusing the President of the United States of murder -- especially pre-Watergate.
You keep arguing that the Federation couldn't possibly believe in Section 31. Yet to the Federation, Starfleet themselves tried a military coup and take control. That was done in plain sight. Didn't Picard say he would tell everyone about parts of Starfleet trying to create a cloaking device?
Sure. But those kinds of instances have been few and far between in Starfleet's history -- and, as you and I have both noted, have been uncovered and brought to justice BY STARFLEET PERSONNEL. From the POV of someone on the Federation Council, the idea of a massive, long-running, institution-wide conspiracy stretching all the way back to the days of the United Earth Starfleet would almost certainly seem absurd -- the equivalent of arguing that because of things like Abu Graib that there exists within the US Army something equivalent to the Illuminati.
No, it isn't. I'm not arguing that the Federation is a perfect place led by perfect leaders. I AM arguing that it's not quite as responsible for Section 31 as you've been implying.
Your arguing that the Federation would turn a blind eye to Section 31 because they couldn't believe it exists and would rather try to paint a picture of Bashir and who knows else to be crazy. I think that's actually worse picture of the Federation.
That's subjective. My only real point is that it's not accurate to say that the Federation government has endorsed Section 31 or that Section 31 represents an authorized part of Starfleet. (How could they? They literally report to no one but themselves.) Even IF the Federation Council and President are aware of the idea of Section 31 -- which I see no reason to think that they would be, since Section 31's agents within Starfleet Command would presumably be perfectly placed to prevent Bashir's and Sisko's allegations of the existence of Section 31 from reaching the Council or the President -- those allegations would have no evidence to back them up, and would appear self-evidently absurd to most Federates, because the Federation has traditionally had such a transparent, uncorrupt government. And on top of that, Bashir would almost certainly not sound like a reputable source to a lot of people -- he's genetically engineered, he lied about it on his Starfleet Academy application and to everyone he knew for the first three decades of his life, he tried to find a cure for the Jem'Hadar's ketracel-white addiction, he worked with a group of genetically engineered consultants who tried to leak classified military info to the Dominion, he was trying to access classified material above his security clearance... Etc.
Whether that's better or worse, I don't know. What I DO know is that I think it's perfectly reasonable to presume that the Federation Council and President either don't know about Section 31 or don't believe the allegations that they're real.
Interestingly enough, we don't know what happened to Sloan's body. Given Sloan's ability to appear and disappear at will, though, I wouldn't be surprised if his body was recovered by Section 31 once they realized he was down.
Or Bashir and O'Brien kept his body in the same forcefield that stopped him from disappearing.
On this issue, neither one of us has evidence to back our ideas up, because the question of what happened to Sloan's body was simply never addressed. We do, however, know from "Inquisition" that Section 31 possesses advanced transporter technology that can penetrate shields and remain undetectable.
What makes you think that they know that's the case? All they would have is Bashir's word to go on if they even hear that he thinks the files were false. And again, his little reputation problem could well get in the way there.
I don't think he has a reputation problem though. I doubt he would be still the CMO of an important station during the war if that was the case. It's also not just Bashir. O'Brien and Sisko were both a part of it.
"Thank you for meeting with me, Admiral Whatsyourname. I know that your schedule is busy, but I did want to look into this issue."
"No problem at all, Councillor. How's Andor this time of year?"
"Oh, beautiful, just beautiful. It's a privilege to represent Andor on the Federation Council. Anyway, this, erm, Basar fellow?"
"'Bashir,' Councillor. Julian Bashir."
"Ah. Yes. Bashir. The genetically engineered officer."
"Yes."
"He lied about that, right?"
"Yes, he did."
"And why is he still allowed in the service...?"
"A JAG Admiral made a deal with Command and civil authorities that Commander Bashir would be allowed to stay in the service so long as his father assumed legal responsibility for the alterations and served a term in prison in New Zealand on Earth."
"I see. This Commander Bashir -- he was leading the so-called 'Jack Pack,' yes?"
"Yes he did, sir. As I noted in my report."
"And this 'Jack Pack,' they attempted to leak classified military information to the Dominion, yes? Information that would have almost certainly have led to an immediate defeat for the Federation?"
"Yes, sir. In fact, Commander Bashir was the person responsible for convincing Starfleet Command to give the 'Jack Pack' that information in the first place."
"Hmm. Thank you. And now I hear that Commander Bashir is alleging the existence of a massive conspiracy, filled with hundreds of members, within Starfleet? A conspiracy that has gone undetected for over two hundred thirteen years, and is responsible for engaging in numerous 'black operations' without authorization from Starfleet Command or the Federation Council or President?"
"Yes, sir, that's right."
"I see."
"Naturally, these allegations are baseless. Starfleet has had its share of problems -- Admiral Leyton's attempted coup, the illegal development of a phase-cloaking device, etc. But Starfleet itself has always detected these problems and brought them to light before the Council, President, and the public."
"I quite agree. Tell me, then, Admiral, how is it that this Commander Bashir is still the Chief Medical Officer of Starbase Deep Space 9?"
"He has the support of Captain Sisko, the CO, I'm afraid. And, well, Sisko is a very influential man these days. He's close friends with Admiral Bill Ross, and if we were to discharge or otherwise punish Bashir, it's Starfleet Command's fear that Captain Sisko might resign. And, well, we can't afford to provoke Captain Sisko, because the Bajorans regard him as the Emissary of their Prophets -- the alien beings who reside in the Bajoran Wormhole, whom they worship as gods. Naturally, we need Sisko to keep the Bajorans happy. And, well..."
"I see. Sounds to me like you people don't have complete control over this starbase, Admiral."
"We do what we can, and Captain Sisko has proven a capable leader and been instrumental in helping to defeat the Dominion in numerous cases. His choice of CMO is dubious, but, so far, Sisko has kept him in line. And, to be fair, Bashir
did report the 'Jack Pack' to DS9 authorities before they could commit their treason, so he's not exactly up for a dishonorable discharge, either."
"Well, keep me apprised, Admiral. I don't want some crazy doctor creating some ridiculous PR problem. The Federation has enough problems as it is."
Maybe. On the other hand, Starfleet also stopped that coup long before the Federation civilian government detected it.
However it still resulted in the Federation president having to step down because of it. That's not something which could be kept quiet.
A Starfleet attempted coup resulted in the Federation president stepping down. You really don't think the Federation could believe that a secret orgainization existed within it?
What on Earth are you taking about? Jaresh-Inyo remained President of the United Federation of Planets throughout the entirety of "Homefront" and "Paradise Lost." He was never removed from power, nor was he ever established as having resigned. When he declared martial law on Earth, in fact, that made his position MORE powerful, since, as commander-in-chief of the Federation military, that put him directly in charge of administering martial law.
In the novels, it is established that Jaresh-Inyo then lost the subsequent 2372 presidential election to Federation Councillor Min Zife of Bolarus, in part because so many were angry that he was duped by Leyton, but that's hardly the same thing as him "having to step down."
But it's hardly the same thing as authorizing Thirty-One or being their accomplices.
Again we have the whole sending false information to Bashir regarding Odo? Even after he had been cleared by Sisko.
Which is irrelevant to the question of whether or not the Federation government as a whole can be said to be responsible for Thirty-One's actions.
Why? Did those medics get suspended? Forced to leave Starfleet? The fact that the Federation doesn't do anything about Section 31 or people helping them when the facts are in plain sight makes them responsible. These are still Starfleet and Federation members. If the same medic shot someone wouldn't Starfleet have some responsibility? Not over the actions they can't control but how they deal with the aftermath.
1) You are presuming that non-31-affiliated officers in Command are even aware that false information was sent. There is no evidence of this.
2) Whether or not someone commits a crime and is thereafter court-martialed for it is irrelevant of the question of the culpability of the government as a whole. People commit crimes undetected all the time; no one indicts Congress as being culpable for it if that happens.
3) The facts are
not in plain sight to anyone other than the main characters of
Star Trek: Deep Space Nine. Bashir has no empirical evidence to back up his claims -- nothing apart from his own testimony, and, as I've established already, not everyone is going to regard him as a reliable source of information. (There's no way Section 31 would risk allowing evidence of their existence to be leaked via Sloan's body, so I'm convinced that that would have just disappeared.) That's basically my point: Section 31 is very good at covering itself up, and in a political culture where coverups do not usually happen, it's perfectly understandable if people don't hear about or don't believe them.
