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"In some ways you're even worse than the Borg!"

Because so far as we know, that Mafia General -- aka, that Starfleet Admiral -- hasn't been uncovered yet.

And on the day that conspiracy is exposed to the public, yes, it's fair to say that admiral would be dishonorably discharged and tried for his crimes, just this is also true of Section 31.

Sure they have. The medics who sent Bashir false information. Bill Ross assisting S31 with the Romulans.

... neither of which are related to my analogy, which argued that Section 31, as of 2375, was at the point in its story where it had yet to be uncovered and was thus the equivalent of a conspiracy within the Navy that had yet to be uncovered. In essence, I was arguing that you can't indict an entire society for not acting to correct something that hasn't been detected yet (except by a few individuals who lack evidence and lack the appearance of respectability).

We don't know that. We don't know that at all. I mean, imagine that you're the Federation Councillor from Andor, and you sit on the Starfleet oversight committee, and you suddenly hear that this doctor -- this illegally genetically engineered doctor,

What does that have to do with anything?

Are you asking what the illegally engineered part has to do with anything? I'm suggesting that because the Federation's leaders are imperfect, they may well be inclined to disbelieve in the existence of Section 31 because of both skeletons in the closet of the guy who's trying to bring them to light and because Section 31's existence is something that's so far outside of the mainstream of Federation political culture that they may not be able to accept that it's real. It would, again, be a bit like someone accusing the President of the United States of murder -- especially pre-Watergate.

The picture you're painting of the Federation isn't the prettiest here.

No, it isn't. I'm not arguing that the Federation is a perfect place led by perfect leaders. I AM arguing that it's not quite as responsible for Section 31 as you've been implying.

Doesn't he also have a body to go along with the cure? The way you're talking I'm surprised the Federation hasn't tried Bashir for murder.

Interestingly enough, we don't know what happened to Sloan's body. Given Sloan's ability to appear and disappear at will, though, I wouldn't be surprised if his body was recovered by Section 31 once they realized he was down.

All the while, Starfleet, which has almost universally been an honest and respectable service throughout its history, is saying that his allegations aren't true, they don't know why he's trying to treat the enemy, oh, and, by the way, he was trying to access classified material above his security clearance.

Doesn't mean a thing. Sisko okayed it.

Yes, you know that and I know that. But people are often remarkably suspectible to meaningless ad hominem attacks -- witness all the people who are convinced that Barack Obama supports terrorism because he worked on a couple of philanthropic boards with Bill Ayers.

The question would be why Odo's files were classified to Bashir. Also why Starfleet medical would send Bashir fale information and try to present it as the truth.

What makes you think that they know that's the case? All they would have is Bashir's word to go on if they even hear that he thinks the files were false. And again, his little reputation problem could well get in the way there.

Also given that Starfleet had attempted a coup on the Federation in the recent past, the Federation might be a tad more concered than you're suggesting.

Maybe. On the other hand, Starfleet also stopped that coup long before the Federation civilian government detected it.

But it's hardly the same thing as authorizing Thirty-One or being their accomplices.

Again we have the whole sending false information to Bashir regarding Odo? Even after he had been cleared by Sisko.

Which is irrelevant to the question of whether or not the Federation government as a whole can be said to be responsible for Thirty-One's actions.
 
... neither of which are related to my analogy, which argued that Section 31, as of 2375, was at the point in its story where it had yet to be uncovered and was thus the equivalent of a conspiracy within the Navy that had yet to be uncovered.

Of course they were discovered. Sisko was even asking about the organization to the Federation who didn't deny their existence. I honestly can't see your point here. Section 31 are known.

In essence, I was arguing that you can't indict an entire society for not acting to correct something that hasn't been detected yet (except by a few individuals who lack evidence and lack the appearance of respectability).

It's not a society that's at fault. It's the Federation (not all it's citizens) and Starfleet. You also seem to imply that Bashir lacks credibility which is just speculation. It's never been shown.

Are you asking what the illegally engineered part has to do with anything? I'm suggesting that because the Federation's leaders are imperfect, they may well be inclined to disbelieve in the existence of Section 31 because of both skeletons in the closet of the guy who's trying to bring them to light and because Section 31's existence is something that's so far outside of the mainstream of Federation political culture that they may not be able to accept that it's real. It would, again, be a bit like someone accusing the President of the United States of murder -- especially pre-Watergate.

You keep arguing that the Federation couldn't possibly believe in Section 31. Yet to the Federation, Starfleet themselves tried a military coup and take control. That was done in plain sight. Didn't Picard say he would tell everyone about parts of Starfleet trying to create a cloaking device?

No, it isn't. I'm not arguing that the Federation is a perfect place led by perfect leaders. I AM arguing that it's not quite as responsible for Section 31 as you've been implying.

Your arguing that the Federation would turn a blind eye to Section 31 because they couldn't believe it exists and would rather try to paint a picture of Bashir and who knows else to be crazy. I think that's actually worse picture of the Federation.

Interestingly enough, we don't know what happened to Sloan's body. Given Sloan's ability to appear and disappear at will, though, I wouldn't be surprised if his body was recovered by Section 31 once they realized he was down.

Or Bashir and O'Brien kept his body in the same forcefield that stopped him from disappearing.


What makes you think that they know that's the case? All they would have is Bashir's word to go on if they even hear that he thinks the files were false. And again, his little reputation problem could well get in the way there.

I don't think he has a reputation problem though. I doubt he would be still the CMO of an important station during the war if that was the case. It's also not just Bashir. O'Brien and Sisko were both a part of it.

Maybe. On the other hand, Starfleet also stopped that coup long before the Federation civilian government detected it.

However it still resulted in the Federation president having to step down because of it. That's not something which could be kept quiet.

A Starfleet attempted coup resulted in the Federation president stepping down. You really don't think the Federation could believe that a secret orgainization existed within it?


Which is irrelevant to the question of whether or not the Federation government as a whole can be said to be responsible for Thirty-One's actions.

Why? Did those medics get suspended? Forced to leave Starfleet? The fact that the Federation doesn't do anything about Section 31 or people helping them when the facts are in plain sight makes them responsible. These are still Starfleet and Federation members. If the same medic shot someone wouldn't Starfleet have some responsibility? Not over the actions they can't control but how they deal with the aftermath.
 
... neither of which are related to my analogy, which argued that Section 31, as of 2375, was at the point in its story where it had yet to be uncovered and was thus the equivalent of a conspiracy within the Navy that had yet to be uncovered.

Of course they were discovered. Sisko was even asking about the organization to the Federation who didn't deny their existence. I honestly can't see your point here. Section 31 are known.

No. Sisko reported Bashir's discovery of Section 31 to Starfleet Command, and someone at Starfleet Command was covering it up. In other words, no, Section 31 has not yet been discovered, because only a few people outside of the organization know about them, and there is no evidence that anyone inside Starfleet Command other than the person(s) that Sisko reported them to and the person(s) who covered it up -- who may be the same person(s) are aware of it.

It would be as though a junior officer on a naval base in Dubai discovers the existence of a conspiracy within the Navy, reports it to his superior officer, who then reports it to Naval HQ at the Pentagon, but the person at the Pentagon it is reported to is a member of the conspiracy. No one in Congress knows about it, the President remains unaware, and the general public remains unaware. You cannot yet argue that it has been genuinely uncovered.

In essence, I was arguing that you can't indict an entire society for not acting to correct something that hasn't been detected yet (except by a few individuals who lack evidence and lack the appearance of respectability).

It's not a society that's at fault. It's the Federation (not all it's citizens) and Starfleet.

Fair enough. But I would argue that we can't even say with certainty that the Federation Council or Federation President are aware of Section 31's existence, or that they are willing to acknowledge it to themselves.

You also seem to imply that Bashir lacks credibility which is just speculation. It's never been shown.

It was shown all throughout "Inquisition," and it's a reasonable inference. I would be very surprised if Bashir has a good reputation with Starfleet Command and the Federation government.

Are you asking what the illegally engineered part has to do with anything? I'm suggesting that because the Federation's leaders are imperfect, they may well be inclined to disbelieve in the existence of Section 31 because of both skeletons in the closet of the guy who's trying to bring them to light and because Section 31's existence is something that's so far outside of the mainstream of Federation political culture that they may not be able to accept that it's real. It would, again, be a bit like someone accusing the President of the United States of murder -- especially pre-Watergate.

You keep arguing that the Federation couldn't possibly believe in Section 31. Yet to the Federation, Starfleet themselves tried a military coup and take control. That was done in plain sight. Didn't Picard say he would tell everyone about parts of Starfleet trying to create a cloaking device?

Sure. But those kinds of instances have been few and far between in Starfleet's history -- and, as you and I have both noted, have been uncovered and brought to justice BY STARFLEET PERSONNEL. From the POV of someone on the Federation Council, the idea of a massive, long-running, institution-wide conspiracy stretching all the way back to the days of the United Earth Starfleet would almost certainly seem absurd -- the equivalent of arguing that because of things like Abu Graib that there exists within the US Army something equivalent to the Illuminati.

No, it isn't. I'm not arguing that the Federation is a perfect place led by perfect leaders. I AM arguing that it's not quite as responsible for Section 31 as you've been implying.

Your arguing that the Federation would turn a blind eye to Section 31 because they couldn't believe it exists and would rather try to paint a picture of Bashir and who knows else to be crazy. I think that's actually worse picture of the Federation.

That's subjective. My only real point is that it's not accurate to say that the Federation government has endorsed Section 31 or that Section 31 represents an authorized part of Starfleet. (How could they? They literally report to no one but themselves.) Even IF the Federation Council and President are aware of the idea of Section 31 -- which I see no reason to think that they would be, since Section 31's agents within Starfleet Command would presumably be perfectly placed to prevent Bashir's and Sisko's allegations of the existence of Section 31 from reaching the Council or the President -- those allegations would have no evidence to back them up, and would appear self-evidently absurd to most Federates, because the Federation has traditionally had such a transparent, uncorrupt government. And on top of that, Bashir would almost certainly not sound like a reputable source to a lot of people -- he's genetically engineered, he lied about it on his Starfleet Academy application and to everyone he knew for the first three decades of his life, he tried to find a cure for the Jem'Hadar's ketracel-white addiction, he worked with a group of genetically engineered consultants who tried to leak classified military info to the Dominion, he was trying to access classified material above his security clearance... Etc.

Whether that's better or worse, I don't know. What I DO know is that I think it's perfectly reasonable to presume that the Federation Council and President either don't know about Section 31 or don't believe the allegations that they're real.

Interestingly enough, we don't know what happened to Sloan's body. Given Sloan's ability to appear and disappear at will, though, I wouldn't be surprised if his body was recovered by Section 31 once they realized he was down.

Or Bashir and O'Brien kept his body in the same forcefield that stopped him from disappearing.

On this issue, neither one of us has evidence to back our ideas up, because the question of what happened to Sloan's body was simply never addressed. We do, however, know from "Inquisition" that Section 31 possesses advanced transporter technology that can penetrate shields and remain undetectable.

What makes you think that they know that's the case? All they would have is Bashir's word to go on if they even hear that he thinks the files were false. And again, his little reputation problem could well get in the way there.

I don't think he has a reputation problem though. I doubt he would be still the CMO of an important station during the war if that was the case. It's also not just Bashir. O'Brien and Sisko were both a part of it.

"Thank you for meeting with me, Admiral Whatsyourname. I know that your schedule is busy, but I did want to look into this issue."

"No problem at all, Councillor. How's Andor this time of year?"

"Oh, beautiful, just beautiful. It's a privilege to represent Andor on the Federation Council. Anyway, this, erm, Basar fellow?"

"'Bashir,' Councillor. Julian Bashir."

"Ah. Yes. Bashir. The genetically engineered officer."

"Yes."

"He lied about that, right?"

"Yes, he did."

"And why is he still allowed in the service...?"

"A JAG Admiral made a deal with Command and civil authorities that Commander Bashir would be allowed to stay in the service so long as his father assumed legal responsibility for the alterations and served a term in prison in New Zealand on Earth."

"I see. This Commander Bashir -- he was leading the so-called 'Jack Pack,' yes?"

"Yes he did, sir. As I noted in my report."

"And this 'Jack Pack,' they attempted to leak classified military information to the Dominion, yes? Information that would have almost certainly have led to an immediate defeat for the Federation?"

"Yes, sir. In fact, Commander Bashir was the person responsible for convincing Starfleet Command to give the 'Jack Pack' that information in the first place."

"Hmm. Thank you. And now I hear that Commander Bashir is alleging the existence of a massive conspiracy, filled with hundreds of members, within Starfleet? A conspiracy that has gone undetected for over two hundred thirteen years, and is responsible for engaging in numerous 'black operations' without authorization from Starfleet Command or the Federation Council or President?"

"Yes, sir, that's right."

"I see."

"Naturally, these allegations are baseless. Starfleet has had its share of problems -- Admiral Leyton's attempted coup, the illegal development of a phase-cloaking device, etc. But Starfleet itself has always detected these problems and brought them to light before the Council, President, and the public."

"I quite agree. Tell me, then, Admiral, how is it that this Commander Bashir is still the Chief Medical Officer of Starbase Deep Space 9?"

"He has the support of Captain Sisko, the CO, I'm afraid. And, well, Sisko is a very influential man these days. He's close friends with Admiral Bill Ross, and if we were to discharge or otherwise punish Bashir, it's Starfleet Command's fear that Captain Sisko might resign. And, well, we can't afford to provoke Captain Sisko, because the Bajorans regard him as the Emissary of their Prophets -- the alien beings who reside in the Bajoran Wormhole, whom they worship as gods. Naturally, we need Sisko to keep the Bajorans happy. And, well..."

"I see. Sounds to me like you people don't have complete control over this starbase, Admiral."

"We do what we can, and Captain Sisko has proven a capable leader and been instrumental in helping to defeat the Dominion in numerous cases. His choice of CMO is dubious, but, so far, Sisko has kept him in line. And, to be fair, Bashir did report the 'Jack Pack' to DS9 authorities before they could commit their treason, so he's not exactly up for a dishonorable discharge, either."

"Well, keep me apprised, Admiral. I don't want some crazy doctor creating some ridiculous PR problem. The Federation has enough problems as it is."


Maybe. On the other hand, Starfleet also stopped that coup long before the Federation civilian government detected it.

However it still resulted in the Federation president having to step down because of it. That's not something which could be kept quiet.

A Starfleet attempted coup resulted in the Federation president stepping down. You really don't think the Federation could believe that a secret orgainization existed within it?

What on Earth are you taking about? Jaresh-Inyo remained President of the United Federation of Planets throughout the entirety of "Homefront" and "Paradise Lost." He was never removed from power, nor was he ever established as having resigned. When he declared martial law on Earth, in fact, that made his position MORE powerful, since, as commander-in-chief of the Federation military, that put him directly in charge of administering martial law.

In the novels, it is established that Jaresh-Inyo then lost the subsequent 2372 presidential election to Federation Councillor Min Zife of Bolarus, in part because so many were angry that he was duped by Leyton, but that's hardly the same thing as him "having to step down."

But it's hardly the same thing as authorizing Thirty-One or being their accomplices.
Again we have the whole sending false information to Bashir regarding Odo? Even after he had been cleared by Sisko.
Which is irrelevant to the question of whether or not the Federation government as a whole can be said to be responsible for Thirty-One's actions.
Why? Did those medics get suspended? Forced to leave Starfleet? The fact that the Federation doesn't do anything about Section 31 or people helping them when the facts are in plain sight makes them responsible. These are still Starfleet and Federation members. If the same medic shot someone wouldn't Starfleet have some responsibility? Not over the actions they can't control but how they deal with the aftermath.

1) You are presuming that non-31-affiliated officers in Command are even aware that false information was sent. There is no evidence of this.

2) Whether or not someone commits a crime and is thereafter court-martialed for it is irrelevant of the question of the culpability of the government as a whole. People commit crimes undetected all the time; no one indicts Congress as being culpable for it if that happens.

3) The facts are not in plain sight to anyone other than the main characters of Star Trek: Deep Space Nine. Bashir has no empirical evidence to back up his claims -- nothing apart from his own testimony, and, as I've established already, not everyone is going to regard him as a reliable source of information. (There's no way Section 31 would risk allowing evidence of their existence to be leaked via Sloan's body, so I'm convinced that that would have just disappeared.) That's basically my point: Section 31 is very good at covering itself up, and in a political culture where coverups do not usually happen, it's perfectly understandable if people don't hear about or don't believe them.
 
No. Sisko reported Bashir's discovery of Section 31 to Starfleet Command, and someone at Starfleet Command was covering it up. In other words, no, Section 31 has not yet been discovered, because only a few people outside of the organization know about them, and there is no evidence that anyone inside Starfleet Command other than the person(s) that Sisko reported them to and the person(s) who covered it up -- who may be the same person(s) are aware of it.

What? Everyone on DS9 knows about them. Kira the Federation liaison to Bajor knows about them. Starfleet command just dismiss them? They've gone God crazy or something?

It was shown all throughout "Inquisition," and it's a reasonable inference. I would be very surprised if Bashir has a good reputation with Starfleet Command and the Federation government.

You're using Inquisition as proof that the Federation distrusts Bashir? He's the CMO of the most important Starbase during the war. I can't see how he's not trusted.

Sure. But those kinds of instances have been few and far between in Starfleet's history -- and, as you and I have both noted, have been uncovered and brought to justice BY STARFLEET PERSONNEL. From the POV of someone on the Federation Council, the idea of a massive, long-running, institution-wide conspiracy stretching all the way back to the days of the United Earth Starfleet would almost certainly seem absurd

The attempted coup was quite recent in Federation history. I can buy that one or two people on the council might be skeptical but not everyone.

That's subjective. My only real point is that it's not accurate to say that the Federation government has endorsed Section 31 or that Section 31 represents an authorized part of Starfleet. (How could they? They literally report to no one but themselves.) Even IF the Federation Council and President are aware of the idea of Section 31 -- which I see no reason to think that they would be, since Section 31's agents within Starfleet Command would presumably be perfectly placed to prevent Bashir's and Sisko's allegations of the existence of Section 31 from reaching the Council or the President --

Which you have no proof and is entirely subjective also. You have no proof that whoever Sisko talked to covered it up.



those allegations would have no evidence to back them up, and would appear self-evidently absurd to most Federates, because the Federation has traditionally had such a transparent, uncorrupt government.

Which again is all theory. You don't know what most Federation members think. How did the Maquis form? Mostly from Federation members including Captains. The Federation president was quite prepared to believe that Leyton was planning a coup. He required hard evidence but didn't dismiss it.

And on top of that, Bashir would almost certainly not sound like a reputable source to a lot of people -- he's genetically engineered, he lied about it on his Starfleet Academy application and to everyone he knew for the first three decades of his life, he tried to find a cure for the Jem'Hadar's ketracel-white addiction, he worked with a group of genetically engineered consultants who tried to leak classified military info to the Dominion, he was trying to access classified material above his security clearance... Etc.

Not this again. Bashir is the CMO of the most important space station at that time. To be in that position while the Federation is being distrusful of him doesn't make sense. It's also the entire point of Inquisition.

Whether that's better or worse, I don't know. What I DO know is that I think it's perfectly reasonable to presume that the Federation Council and President either don't know about Section 31 or don't believe the allegations that they're real.

Unless you have proof that whoever Sisko talked to at Starfleet command (and it may be more than one person) I think this is the current canon stance. Starfleet command as an entity.
SISKO
Starfleet Command didn't acknowledge its existence. But
they didn't deny it either


What on Earth are you taking about? Jaresh-Inyo remained President of the United Federation of Planets throughout the entirety of "Homefront" and "Paradise Lost." He was never removed from power, nor was he ever established as having resigned.

Correct. Getting the book involved. ;)


1) You are presuming that non-31-affiliated officers in Command are even aware that false information was sent. There is no evidence of this.

No evidence? Surely there was a log of the information sent to Bashir? After all Captain Sisko with the appropiate security clearence did ask for the records? Deleting them straight after seems supsicous.

2) Whether or not someone commits a crime and is thereafter court-martialed for it is irrelevant of the question of the culpability of the government as a whole. People commit crimes undetected all the time; no one indicts Congress as being culpable for it if that happens.

But Section 31 were detected. Bashir even has the body to go with it last time we saw him.

3) The facts are not in plain sight to anyone other than the main characters of Star Trek: Deep Space Nine. Bashir has no empirical evidence to back up his claims -- nothing apart from his own testimony, and, as I've established already, not everyone is going to regard him as a reliable source of information.

You've established nothing as far as I can see. The fact that Bashir retained an important position flies against what you're talking about. You also both have Sisko and O'Brien supporting Bashir. Would Starfleet Command not take them seriously? Show me one person is Starfleet command who distrusts Bashir.

(There's no way Section 31 would risk allowing evidence of their existence to be leaked via Sloan's body, so I'm convinced that that would have just disappeared.) That's basically my point: Section 31 is very good at covering itself up, and in a political culture where coverups do not usually happen, it's perfectly understandable if people don't hear about or don't believe them.

Which again you have no proof. The last canon evidence was that Bashir had Sloan's body. Indeed we don't actually know if there's anyone else in S31.
 
Picard was asked to arbitrate by the Chancellor himself, the head of state. And the Chancellor made it clear that if he refused it would be a great insult from the Federation to the Empire.

Picard had no choice, Km'pec forced him into it.

The chancellor was setting up the Klingon succession, as he was toast. He had a faction in mind, and it wasn't Durass. He was also looking for political cover, a fall guy, and an excuse to blame foreigners, if he screwed up.^1 He as much as says this to Picard. Point of fact, the Federation's name would be mud in the Klingon Empire, no matter which side Picard picked, as half of the Klingons would be POed at the Federation, as they actually were (DS9; Dominion War). The proper and legal response should be: Picard to chancellor: "Its a Klingon internal matter. Our laws prohibit me, as a Federation officer, from interfering in your internal affairs. The matter must be referred directly to my government diplomatically for mediation and arbitration by you, if you so desire me to arbitrate."

^1 Never mind the idiotic Berman style writing of this ridiculous international law crime, and the sloppy legalities asserted, that a Paramount studio lawyer; if consulted about plausibility, would have shot holes through during the script legal reviews involved: just how incredibly stupid is Picard for sticking the Federation Starfleet, without clear instructions from his higher authority, into the internal hornet's nest of Klingon politics, anyway?
Worst Starfleet captain ever!

Do you remember "The Enterpise Incident" when another Federation warcrime occured, the one [invasion of Romulan space] Kirk commited upon instructions from his higher authority? Plausible deniability was the legal cover the Federation needed then; a crazy captain was their legal excuse. Let Kirk take the rap alone; if it blew up.

The Feds knew they were engaged in criminal behavior, there, and they planned for it.
______________________________

DS9 tie-in

Sisko always tried to seek best options when he was given the usual legal kumquat surprise by the Bajoran vedek of the week before he, Sisko acted, thus:

I judge Sisko would have done a much better job of mediation after he cleared that live Klingon holy hand grenade with the Federation Council, than clueless Picard. That man, the Emissary, would have thought the entire mess through, thoroughly, before he meddled.
 
I don't have time for a long response, but I really do have to react to this:

^1 Never mind the idiotic Berman style writing of this ridiculous international law crime,

At best, Picard's accepting the role of Arbiter of Succession would not be a violation of international law (i.e., treaties and agreements made between the Federation and Klingon Empire), but, rather, a violation of Federation law.

Do you remember "The Enterpise Incident" when another Federation warcrime occured, the one [invasion of Romulan space] Kirk commited upon instructions from his higher authority?

Let's get real here. "War crime?" That term has a fairly specific meaning to it. As the Wikipedia article put its:

War crimes are "violations of the laws or customs of war", including but not limited to "murder, the ill-treatment or deportation of civilian residents of an occupied territory to slave labor camps", "the murder or ill-treatment of prisoners of war", the killing of hostages, "the wanton destruction of cities, towns and villages, and any devastation not justified by military necessity".[1]

In other words, war crimes are violent atrocities committed unnecessarily during a violent conflict. Now, it's been a long time since I've seen "The Enterprise Incident," but I don't even recall anyone dying, and I certainly don't recall any atrocities being committed.

At worst, the Federation's decision to enter Romulan space in violation of treaty, steal a cloaking device, and abduct a Romulan officer could be seen as an act of espionage that risks breaking the peace and provoking a war. (Though it should be noted that both sides are guilty of such actions.) Now, you may rightly condemn that -- but it is still hardly the same thing as a war crime. That term has a very specific meaning and connotation to it, and it does NOT apply to anything the UFP did in that episode.
 
I have a quick question concerning the so called 'WMD' 's used by Eddington and Sisko.

I kinda remember the weapon being a 'slow motion explosion' , though the colony's atmosphere was now poisoned to Cardassians (Eddingtons attack) and then Sisko's (Non Cardies) ...but they were high atmosphere bursts that would /slowly/ poison the planet allowing for a possible reasonable evacuation or even a rushed one...

The point of the weapons was to deny the other side a colony I thought.

Just curious? Am I remembering this one wrong?

If I am then all of those posting good old Sisko should've been charged too are correct, however I remember thinking that all he did when he fired his weapon was maintain the balance from keeping a real shooting war from starting.

Its not like he turned his pulse phasers or Quantum Torpedos on those grandparents and children, just forced them to move since Eddington had done the same to a Cardie colony.

No mass casualties, just a lot of inconvienced folks that would trade one planet for another at the most.

Unless I am remembering this incorrectly.

Vons
 
I don't have time for a long response, but I really do have to react to this:

^1 Never mind the idiotic Berman style writing of this ridiculous international law crime,

At best, Picard's accepting the role of Arbiter of Succession would not be a violation of international law (i.e., treaties and agreements made between the Federation and Klingon Empire), but, rather, a violation of Federation law.

It is a violation of international law for a foreign state to meddle in the internal affairs of another sovereign state so as to affect the future form of that state. That is an act that is consistent with plotting aggressive war, which is illegal, and is a warcrime.

Citations: Austrian Anschluss, Partition of Czechoslovakia, Partition of Poland, setting up of puppet governments in Hungary and attempts to do so in Yugoslavia, all WARCRIMES as established in the Nuremberg trials as these cases violated treaty law [Versailles] and led directly to war.
Do you remember "The Enterpise Incident" when another Federation warcrime occured, the one [invasion of Romulan space] Kirk committed upon instructions from his higher authority?
Let's get real here. "War crime?" That term has a fairly specific meaning to it. As the Wikipedia article put its:

War crimes are "violations of the laws or customs of war", including but not limited to "murder, the ill-treatment or deportation of civilian residents of an occupied territory to slave labor camps", "the murder or ill-treatment of prisoners of war", the killing of hostages, "the wanton destruction of cities, towns and villages, and any devastation not justified by military necessity".[1]
In other words, war crimes are violent atrocities committed unnecessarily during a violent conflict. Now, it's been a long time since I've seen "The Enterprise Incident," but I don't even recall anyone dying, and I certainly don't recall any atrocities being committed.
Those crimes are crimes against the customs of war, i.e atrocities-NOT warcrimes as defined by precedent in International Law. A vast legal difference exists here. Plotting aggressive war (Conspiracy to commit aggressive war) is a warcrime for example-even if nobody dies as a result of the plot. Don't use Wiki, please.

At worst, the Federation's decision to enter Romulan space in violation of treaty, steal a cloaking device, and abduct a Romulan officer could be seen as an act of espionage that risks breaking the peace and provoking a war. (Though it should be noted that both sides are guilty of such actions.) Now, you may rightly condemn that -- but it is still hardly the same thing as a war crime. That term has a very specific meaning and connotation to it, and it does NOT apply to anything the UFP did in that episode.
It is applicable to call violation of sovereign territory an international law crime if the sole purpose is to steal another sovereign nation's physical property inside its sovereign territory. The technical term is "invasion" and that too is a warcrime, as theft of another nation's property (France) was another charge of which those German war criminals were convicted.

The Feds by your own arguments just look worse and worse.

Here is the pertinent law by precedent for your edification:

http://avalon.law.yale.edu/subject_menus/imt.asp

and here:

http://www.ibiblio.org/hyperwar/PTO/IMTFE/index.html

That is the case law we have as the established precedent.

B.
 
I kinda remember the weapon being a 'slow motion explosion' , though the colony's atmosphere was now poisoned to Cardassians (Eddingtons attack) and then Sisko's (Non Cardies) ...but they were high atmosphere bursts that would /slowly/ poison the planet allowing for a possible reasonable evacuation or even a rushed one...

We have to consider what happened after the release of those weapons, though. The victims immediately started evacuating. They did it within minutes.

Now, why would they do that? It's not very likely that they had sensors tuned to these exotic chemical agents, constantly monitoring the skies against the possibility of a sneak attack. For an entire colony to start scrambling to its available spaceships, the threat would have to be extremely pressing, extremely acute, extremely concrete.

The only way I can see this happening is if both Eddington's and Sisko's agents immediately started killing people left and right. In which case the ultimate death toll probably was considerable, as the process of evacuating an entire planet (or even providing everybody with some sort of protective gear so that they can wait it out until a slot in an evacuation ship opens) is a demanding and time-consuming one.

It is a violation of international law for a foreign state to meddle in the internal affairs of another sovereign state so as to affect the future form of that state.

Umm, not if this another state invites in the meddlers. People who meddle when invited (like Picard) tend to get medals and Nobel prizes, not subpoenas.

Timo Saloniemi
 
I kinda remember the weapon being a 'slow motion explosion' , though the colony's atmosphere was now poisoned to Cardassians (Eddingtons attack) and then Sisko's (Non Cardies) ...but they were high atmosphere bursts that would /slowly/ poison the planet allowing for a possible reasonable evacuation or even a rushed one...
We have to consider what happened after the release of those weapons, though. The victims immediately started evacuating. They did it within minutes.

Now, why would they do that? It's not very likely that they had sensors tuned to these exotic chemical agents, constantly monitoring the skies against the possibility of a sneak attack. For an entire colony to start scrambling to its available spaceships, the threat would have to be extremely pressing, extremely acute, extremely concrete.

The only way I can see this happening is if both Eddington's and Sisko's agents immediately started killing people left and right. In which case the ultimate death toll probably was considerable, as the process of evacuating an entire planet (or even providing everybody with some sort of protective gear so that they can wait it out until a slot in an evacuation ship opens) is a demanding and time-consuming one.

It is a violation of international law for a foreign state to meddle in the internal affairs of another sovereign state so as to affect the future form of that state.
Umm, not if this another state invites in the meddlers. People who meddle when invited (like Picard) tend to get medals and Nobel prizes, not subpoenas.

Timo Saloniemi

Hitler was invited into Hungary by one of the factions. Whether you are invited or not, if it leads to civil war (and it did in Klingon Trek, as evidenced by Worf going into service to stop the Durass faction after Picard botched the mediation.) then its not only a breach of international law, its a warcrime. I cited Hungary as applicable precedent for that very reason.
 
Putting fictitious entities on trial... Isn't that what they do in "Rocky & Bullwinkle"?
That ends with judge Whoopi Goldberg letting them off the hook for being popular.
e100641.gif
 
I kinda remember the weapon being a 'slow motion explosion' , though the colony's atmosphere was now poisoned to Cardassians (Eddingtons attack) and then Sisko's (Non Cardies) ...but they were high atmosphere bursts that would /slowly/ poison the planet allowing for a possible reasonable evacuation or even a rushed one...
We have to consider what happened after the release of those weapons, though. The victims immediately started evacuating. They did it within minutes.

Now, why would they do that? It's not very likely that they had sensors tuned to these exotic chemical agents, constantly monitoring the skies against the possibility of a sneak attack. For an entire colony to start scrambling to its available spaceships, the threat would have to be extremely pressing, extremely acute, extremely concrete.

The only way I can see this happening is if both Eddington's and Sisko's agents immediately started killing people left and right. In which case the ultimate death toll probably was considerable, as the process of evacuating an entire planet (or even providing everybody with some sort of protective gear so that they can wait it out until a slot in an evacuation ship opens) is a demanding and time-consuming one.

It is a violation of international law for a foreign state to meddle in the internal affairs of another sovereign state so as to affect the future form of that state.
Umm, not if this another state invites in the meddlers. People who meddle when invited (like Picard) tend to get medals and Nobel prizes, not subpoenas.

Timo Saloniemi

Hitler was invited into Hungary by one of the factions. Whether you are invited or not, if it leads to civil war (and it did in Klingon Trek, as evidenced by Worf going into service to stop the Durass faction after Picard botched the mediation.) then its not only a breach of international law, its a warcrime. I cited Hungary as applicable precedent for that very reason.

But Picard was invited to serve as Klingon Arbiter of Succession by all of the factions, and a civil war was pretty much inevitable no matter who the Arbiter was.
 
We have to consider what happened after the release of those weapons, though. The victims immediately started evacuating. They did it within minutes.

Now, why would they do that? It's not very likely that they had sensors tuned to these exotic chemical agents, constantly monitoring the skies against the possibility of a sneak attack.

How do you know they didn't detect it? These aren't savages, you know (much as they sometimes act that way). I'm sure they *did* have the means to detect incoming weapons fire. Sisko even warned them that the attack was coming - which I doubt Eddington did to the Cardassian colonies he attacked...
 
Sisko only warned Eddington - who in turn would have been too full of himself to subsequently warn the colony.

And it still doesn't make sense that some computer suddenly starts beeping "Very exotic but slowly acting poison detected in the upper atmosphere!" and an entire colony uproots itself in minutes. No matter what, the scenario has to be modified with the fact that the poison is quickly acting and very, very lethal.

Timo Saloniemi
 
We have to consider what happened after the release of those weapons, though. The victims immediately started evacuating. They did it within minutes.

Now, why would they do that? It's not very likely that they had sensors tuned to these exotic chemical agents, constantly monitoring the skies against the possibility of a sneak attack. For an entire colony to start scrambling to its available spaceships, the threat would have to be extremely pressing, extremely acute, extremely concrete.

The only way I can see this happening is if both Eddington's and Sisko's agents immediately started killing people left and right. In which case the ultimate death toll probably was considerable, as the process of evacuating an entire planet (or even providing everybody with some sort of protective gear so that they can wait it out until a slot in an evacuation ship opens) is a demanding and time-consuming one.

Umm, not if this another state invites in the meddlers. People who meddle when invited (like Picard) tend to get medals and Nobel prizes, not subpoenas.

Timo Saloniemi

Hitler was invited into Hungary by one of the factions. Whether you are invited or not, if it leads to civil war (and it did in Klingon Trek, as evidenced by Worf going into service to stop the Durass faction after Picard botched the mediation.) then its not only a breach of international law, its a warcrime. I cited Hungary as applicable precedent for that very reason.

But Picard was invited to serve as Klingon Arbiter of Succession by all of the factions, and a civil war was pretty much inevitable no matter who the Arbiter was.

Would not involve the Federation in a Klingon internal matter, though: it was because Picard meddled that it spilled outside Klingon space and involved the Federation and the Romulans in counterplots, was part of the Dominion War, soured Klingon Fed relations permanently afterward, etc.

I don't care if a cute fluffy bunny invited Picard in to meddle, he didn't have the RIGHT under law to meddle.

This Picard illegality I point out, is just on top of the total botch he made of the arbitration.

Worst Federation Captain ever.
 
Sisko only warned Eddington - who in turn would have been too full of himself to subsequently warn the colony.

Then that's Eddington's fault, not Sisko's.

And it still doesn't make sense that some computer suddenly starts beeping "Very exotic but slowly acting poison detected in the upper atmosphere!" and an entire colony uproots itself in minutes. No matter what, the scenario has to be modified with the fact that the poison is quickly acting and very, very lethal.

Assuming the Maquis colonists knew what Eddington had already been doing, maybe they assumed that any largish weapon headed *at them* might be more of the same, and evacuated based on that alone.
 
Now that I have some spare time...

No. Sisko reported Bashir's discovery of Section 31 to Starfleet Command, and someone at Starfleet Command was covering it up. In other words, no, Section 31 has not yet been discovered, because only a few people outside of the organization know about them, and there is no evidence that anyone inside Starfleet Command other than the person(s) that Sisko reported them to and the person(s) who covered it up -- who may be the same person(s) are aware of it.

What? Everyone on DS9 knows about them. Kira the Federation liaison to Bajor knows about them.

Well, we don't know that everyone on DS9 knows about them. We know that Bashir, Sisko, Odo, Kira, Admiral Ross, and O'Brien know about them; that's it.

Starfleet command just dismiss them? They've gone God crazy or something?

From "Inter Arma Enim Silent Leges:"

SISKO
Officially, Starfleet Command has
said they're appalled at the very
notion that an organization like
Section Thirty-one might exist
and that they plan to get to the
bottom of this entire business.

BASHIR
But unofficially... ?

SISKO
They've quietly pushed the
investigation aside. Which means
they either don't take Section
Thirty-one seriously... or
someone at Starfleet Command is
protecting them.

So, yes, there's a cover-up that's taken place; Section 31 cannot yet be said to have been exposed.

It was shown all throughout "Inquisition," and it's a reasonable inference. I would be very surprised if Bashir has a good reputation with Starfleet Command and the Federation government.

You're using Inquisition as proof that the Federation distrusts Bashir?

No. I'm using the arguments it presents as examples of how those who are covering Section 31's existence up could attack the messenger, and to show that it's plausible that there may well be factions within Starfleet Command -- NOT the Federation, Starfleet Command; let's get specific, here -- that are not predisposed to believe him in the first place.

Sure. But those kinds of instances have been few and far between in Starfleet's history -- and, as you and I have both noted, have been uncovered and brought to justice BY STARFLEET PERSONNEL. From the POV of someone on the Federation Council, the idea of a massive, long-running, institution-wide conspiracy stretching all the way back to the days of the United Earth Starfleet would almost certainly seem absurd

The attempted coup was quite recent in Federation history. I can buy that one or two people on the council might be skeptical but not everyone.

The attempted coup was recent, and was uncovered by Starfleet officers. If the Council is even getting reports of the existence of Section 31 -- which I doubt -- I can easily see the whole thing being laughed at and dismissed.

That's subjective. My only real point is that it's not accurate to say that the Federation government has endorsed Section 31 or that Section 31 represents an authorized part of Starfleet. (How could they? They literally report to no one but themselves.) Even IF the Federation Council and President are aware of the idea of Section 31 -- which I see no reason to think that they would be, since Section 31's agents within Starfleet Command would presumably be perfectly placed to prevent Bashir's and Sisko's allegations of the existence of Section 31 from reaching the Council or the President --

Which you have no proof and is entirely subjective also. You have no proof that whoever Sisko talked to covered it up.

Other than Sisko's own words.

those allegations would have no evidence to back them up, and would appear self-evidently absurd to most Federates, because the Federation has traditionally had such a transparent, uncorrupt government.

Which again is all theory. You don't know what most Federation members think.

What do you mean by "Federation members?" Are you referring to the Federation Member Worlds such as Earth or Andor? Or are you referring to citizens of the United Federation of Planets?

How did the Maquis form? Mostly from Federation members including Captains. The Federation president was quite prepared to believe that Leyton was planning a coup. He required hard evidence but didn't dismiss it.

President Jaresh-Inyo seemed pretty incredulous to me.

And on top of that, Bashir would almost certainly not sound like a reputable source to a lot of people -- he's genetically engineered, he lied about it on his Starfleet Academy application and to everyone he knew for the first three decades of his life, he tried to find a cure for the Jem'Hadar's ketracel-white addiction, he worked with a group of genetically engineered consultants who tried to leak classified military info to the Dominion, he was trying to access classified material above his security clearance... Etc.

Not this again. Bashir is the CMO of the most important space station at that time. To be in that position while the Federation is being distrusful of him doesn't make sense. It's also the entire point of Inquisition.

Again, why are you trying to generalize everything? I'm pointing out that within Starfleet Command, there are no doubt differing FACTIONS with differing views. I'm not trying to say, "The Federation doesn't trust him." I'm not trying to say, "Starfleet Command doesn't trust him." (And please stop equating the entire UFP with Starfleet Command.) I'm trying to acknowledge the existence of factions and their potential influence on the distribution of information. And the distribution of information, of course, speaks to the question of national responsibility.

Whether that's better or worse, I don't know. What I DO know is that I think it's perfectly reasonable to presume that the Federation Council and President either don't know about Section 31 or don't believe the allegations that they're real.

Unless you have proof that whoever Sisko talked to at Starfleet command (and it may be more than one person) I think this is the current canon stance. Starfleet command as an entity.
SISKO
Starfleet Command didn't acknowledge its existence. But
they didn't deny it either

I would argue that the canon status is this:

They've quietly pushed the
investigation aside. Which means
they either don't take Section
Thirty-one seriously... or
someone at Starfleet Command is
protecting them.


What on Earth are you taking about? Jaresh-Inyo remained President of the United Federation of Planets throughout the entirety of "Homefront" and "Paradise Lost." He was never removed from power, nor was he ever established as having resigned.

Correct. Getting the book involved. ;)

Fair enough, but let's get very specific. Jaresh-Inyo's declaration of martial law in the days leading up to the attempted coup was the thing that convinced the Federation people to vote for Min Zife in the months following the incident. Your language seemed to imply that he had actually been illegally removed from power by Leyton during the episodes.

And if we're bringing the novels in, then we have to recall that A Time to Heal by David Mack made it very clear that Federation President Min Zife had never heard of Section 31 as late as 2379

when three Section 31 agents entered the Monet Room, the Federation's equivalent of the White House Situation Room, to escort him to deliver a resignation speech before executing him

Further, the subsequent novel Articles of the Federation by Keith RA DeCandido makes it clear that the existence of Section 31 has continued to be kept secret from the new Federation President, Nan Bacco.

1) You are presuming that non-31-affiliated officers in Command are even aware that false information was sent. There is no evidence of this.

No evidence? Surely there was a log of the information sent to Bashir?

From "When It Rains...":

BASHIR
When I first came to the station,
I had to familiarize myself with
Odo's physiology. Doctor Mora
was kind enough to share his data
with me.
(indicating monitor)
This looks like a scan he did
when he first found Odo.

O'BRIEN
Are you sure?
(studying the
screen)
There are a lot of numbers here.

BASHIR
I saw it with my own eyes not
seven years ago.

DEEP SPACE NINE: "When it Rains... " - REV. 03/02/99 - ACT FOUR 45.

43 CONTINUED: (3)

O'BRIEN
You are genetically enhanced.

Bashir works the screen and reacts to what he sees --

BASHIR
According to the date, this scan
was done when Odo was at
Starfleet Medical.

O'BRIEN
(making sure)
There's no way two different
scans could have exactly the same
dispersal patterns.

BASHIR
It's impossible.

Bashir comes to the only possible conclusion

BASHIR
Someone took Mora's results and
built a phony medical workup
around them.
(stunned)
This isn't Odo's file. They sent
a fake.

In other words, Bashir only recognized that it was a false file because he has genetically-enhanced recall of Dr. Mora's scans of Odo. For a person who is not a member of Section 31 to be aware that the scans of Odo sent to Bashir were fake, they would have to have a copy of the original Mora file, and there's no evidence that anyone other than Mora, Bashir, and Section 31 have possession of a copy of that file. It's an entirely plausible scenario for non-Section 31-affiliated officers at Starfleet Command to be unaware that false data was sent to Bashir.


2) Whether or not someone commits a crime and is thereafter court-martialed for it is irrelevant of the question of the culpability of the government as a whole. People commit crimes undetected all the time; no one indicts Congress as being culpable for it if that happens.

But Section 31 were detected.

No, they weren't. Sisko's lines above make it clear that the reports of Section 31 from Bashir and Sisko have been suppressed.

3) The facts are not in plain sight to anyone other than the main characters of Star Trek: Deep Space Nine. Bashir has no empirical evidence to back up his claims -- nothing apart from his own testimony, and, as I've established already, not everyone is going to regard him as a reliable source of information.

You've established nothing as far as I can see. The fact that Bashir retained an important position flies against what you're talking about.

No, it suggests the existence of multiple factions within Starfleet Command with differing opinions.

(There's no way Section 31 would risk allowing evidence of their existence to be leaked via Sloan's body, so I'm convinced that that would have just disappeared.) That's basically my point: Section 31 is very good at covering itself up, and in a political culture where coverups do not usually happen, it's perfectly understandable if people don't hear about or don't believe them.

Which again you have no proof. The last canon evidence was that Bashir had Sloan's body. Indeed we don't actually know if there's anyone else in S31.

Erm, yes we do. We saw several other Section 31 agents in "Inquisition;" Sloan was just the only one who talked. And Bashir's own deductions about the difficulty of formulating the Founder virus made it clear that Section 31 would have to have a fair number of operatives.
 
We saw several other Section 31 agents in "Inquisition;" Sloan was just the only one who talked.

Well, not "really". The only time we saw other black-clad men besides Sloan was on what turned out to be a holodeck.

It might well be that Starfleet did a full inquiry on this Section 31 business and found out that Section 31 didn't exist. It was all the doing of the deranged mind of Sloan, who had dug up historical references to a covert organization from the 2150s, and "resurrected" this, embellishing the story with things that would put the imagination of Freemasons to shame...

Now allow Sloan some access to the work of the real intelligence organizations (who'd be a better candidate to become deranged this way than somebody who really works on this material?) and you can have DS9 perfectly consistently without any silly "S31".

Timo Saloniemi
 
The Federation does force it's members to join in a way, via coercion.

Granted, that is not as overtly forceful as the Borg's method...but it is still morally wrong, and a shady form of assimilation. Just look at what Picard tells the Sisko in Emissary. The Sisko's purpose is to make Bajor join the Federation, period. Whether Bajor wants to, or it's in Bajor's best interest to, is irrelevant to Sisko's order from the Federation. Sisko is ordered to simply make Bajor sign on the line that is dotted, regardless of what Bajor wants or needs. :rolleyes:

No one was forcing Bajor to join the Federation. They wanted to join. It wasn't Sisko's job to make them join, it was his job to get them prepared after nearly half a century of occupation and their world being in ruins. Obviously they were not ready to join at that time.
 
The Federation does force it's members to join in a way, via coercion.

Granted, that is not as overtly forceful as the Borg's method...but it is still morally wrong, and a shady form of assimilation. Just look at what Picard tells the Sisko in Emissary. The Sisko's purpose is to make Bajor join the Federation, period. Whether Bajor wants to, or it's in Bajor's best interest to, is irrelevant to Sisko's order from the Federation. Sisko is ordered to simply make Bajor sign on the line that is dotted, regardless of what Bajor wants or needs. :rolleyes:

No one was forcing Bajor to join the Federation. They wanted to join. It wasn't Sisko's job to make them join, it was his job to get them prepared after nearly half a century of occupation and their world being in ruins. Obviously they were not ready to join at that time.

More specifically, it's obvious that the steps that Bajor would need to take to be ready to join the Federation are also the steps that Bajor wanted and needed to take -- steps like planetary unity, political stability, economic recovery from the occupation (economic in the sense of resources, not necessarily money), securing sentients' rights, establishing good relationships with the rest of the quadrant, etc.

By helping Bajor help itself, Sisko would simultaneously be helping them become capable of joining the Federation if they so chose -- which apparently they did, since the Bajoran government petitioned for membership and were accepted within five years.
 
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