In 'Galaxy's Child', was Geordie a creep or just misunderstood?

[Shamrock Holmes]

And after that, he still lied to her, with all that "just friendship" BS.

Except it wasn't "BS" was it? Because regardless of whether he was interested in more, all he ever presented -- pushed if you must -- was friendship.

And as soon as she made it clear where the line was, he respected that.

Compared to several of Kirk's "dalliances" or the more negative "perspectives" on Riker's conduct in "A Matter of Perspective" he was practically a gentleman.

 

[Vger23]

Okay, okay. Maybe you don't know it. So it's not really your fault.
But...well...generally speaking...at least in most cultures... jokes are meant to be funny.
But don't be discouraged; now that you know that,if you practise real hard, some day you might tell an actual joke

Ok…so is it better if it’s not a joke? If I retract it and say that I sincerely meant it, is that somehow better now? Or do you just want to keep poking at me like the kid in the back of the classroom trying to get others in trouble by egging the issue on?

I’m genuinely sorry for you if you had to take it in a way it wasn’t intended, but that’s not an excuse to retaliate with a thinly-veiled personal attack just trying to make yourself feel better. If what I said was offensive to you, I honestly don’t think being immature and smarmy about it is the right approach for dealing with your negative reaction.

So, you provided me with some life-coaching about humor. I’ve provided you some about not taking yourself, the internet, or Geordi LaForge’s social awkwardness too seriously. Let’s call it even right there, shall we?

Oh, I almost forgot the apparent need for a smarmy, insincere, needlessly antagonistic emoji. Here you go:

 

[Orphalesion]

Ok…so is it better if it’s not a joke? If I retract it and say that I sincerely meant it, is that somehow better now? Or do you just want to keep poking at me like the kid in the back of the classroom trying to get others in trouble by egging the issue on?

I’m genuinely sorry for you if you had to take it in a way it wasn’t intended, but that’s not an excuse to retaliate with a thinly-veiled personal attack just trying to make yourself feel better. If what I said was offensive to you, I honestly don’t think being immature and smarmy about it is the right approach for dealing with your negative reaction.

So, you provided me with some life-coaching about humor. I’ve provided you some about not taking yourself, the internet, or Geordi LaForge’s social awkwardness too seriously. Let’s call it even right there, shall we?

Oh, I almost forgot the apparent need for a smarmy, insincere, needlessly antagonistic emoji. Here you go:

Oh for Christ's sake. You tell everyone to take is as a joke and when I make an attempt to poke back a little bit with another joke you take it as serious as can be and call me names?
You see we have a saying in German: "those who deal out, must also know how to receive"

But, completely sincerely now, I am sorry if I gave you the impression that I was attack you as a person, that was not my intention, and I'm surprised that you don't know me well enough by now to know that I wouldn't attack you personally. I was really just attempting to make a joke, and maybe make you see how your original joke could be read as somewhat condescending.

Maybe let's just agree that neither of us found the other's joke very funny?

 

[Mojochi]

Perhaps we are remembering differently, it wasn't just a social dinner. Here he tried to manipulate her and lied to her.

Yes. Yes he did, & ought accept responsibilty for having represented himself falsely for the purpose of gaining favor with her... & at the end, he does.

However, up the page you're suggesting he shouldn't be allowed to ask a professional associate to a private social dinner, in & of itself, at all, & I don't agree. That is an unreasonable & likely unattainably social construct IMHO.

He is an adult man, who is also a professional with important responsibilities and who should know what can and what cannot be done in the workplace (considering that he has at his command I don't know how many people too). Therefore it should be judged as such.

Female workers should be able to do their jobs safely, without their male colleagues feeling entitled to hit them, regardless of their marital status, sexual orientation or simply whether they have shown interest or not.

That he asked her is not problematic imho. There's really no power dynamic in the mix, & all he's really asking is to try to find a way to dial back the animosity building, & I think that's why she agrees. That he then uses untold personal facts about her to artificially improve his chances of her liking him is where he is undeniably in the wrong. Doubling down on it, when she's calling him out about the program is more so, yes, but is what he's done so incriminating as to label him some kind of predator? I can't really get there.

Yes, she was rude. So what? Geordie is somewhat justified?

No. That's not what I'm suggesting at all. He is wrong, independent of anything she's done. My personal opinion is that how bad his wrongfulness is gets a bit overblown in here, but that is not a defense or excuse for him being wrong. It's merely a plea to rational objectivity about this circumstance.

My separate point is that she too was representing herself falsely, in the very purpose of her being there, & while other commenters here are lamenting her apology to him as being the most offensive thing about this episode, I'm trying to point out, that there was legitimate reason why she might rightfully apologize to him, even if she deserved one herself, perhaps the bigger one... which I think she sort of got, because he ultimately admits all of this mess is on him for how he behaved.

 

[Vger23]

Oh for Christ's sake. You tell everyone to take is as a joke and when I make an attempt to poke back a little bit with another joke you take it as serious as can be and call me names?
You see we have a saying in German: "those who deal out, must also know how to receive"

But, completely sincerely now, I am sorry if I gave you the impression that I was attack you as a person, that was not my intention, and I'm surprised that you don't know me well enough by now to know that I wouldn't attack you personally. I was really just attempting to make a joke, and maybe make you see how your original joke could be read as somewhat condescending.

Maybe let's just agree that neither of us found the other's joke very funny?

So, are we saying you informed me about an unfunny joke with an unfunny joke?

Maybe we both just need a little extra sleep this weekend….

 

[Herbert]

So, you provided me with some life-coaching about humor. I’ve provided you some about not taking yourself, the internet, or Geordi LaForge’s social awkwardness too seriously.

No, no, no. This is TrekBBS. We HAVE to take everything seriously to the point of ludicrousness.

 

[STEPhon IT]

Poor Geordi--- While it can be a bit uncomfortable to watch...I think he was just misunderstood. He's socially awkward with women, and that's an established part of his character. It doesn't make him a weirdo or creep. If we deemed everyone who was socially awkward with women as such, we'd have a major social problem on our hands.

This topic is repetitive as "Cause and Effect", but it is popular. Still think Barkley was worse and I believe it was implied he did have fantasies with existing people on board the Enterprise and was caught.

 

[Skipper]

Except it wasn't "BS" was it? Because regardless of whether he was interested in more, all he ever presented -- pushed if you must -- was friendship.

Please. It was a textbook case of gaslighting. She was rightly angry at what she saw in the holosuite and at Geordie's behavior and instead of explaining what had happened, he blamed her and said "What are you saying? I was just looking for friendship" .

 

[Skipper]

There's really no power dynamic in the mix

Yes, there is. He knows a lot about her and tries to use the knolegde to seduce her. And he's not honest about how he got this information. Like the fact she likes fungili. Brahms is surprised, and says, “I love fungili.” La Forge’s answer is to feign surprise and say, “Really?” He doesn’t say, “I know, I did a little research on you and found that out.” He lies to her and misleads her and makes her think that he came up with that totally on his own and look, doesn’t that make us simpatico, because I also like fungili just like you, and we should totally have sex now.

It is dishonest and puts Geordie in a position of superiority in the interaction (because knowledge is power). And the he lies again, with the absurd justification "What?!? I'M OFFENDED! I just offered friendship! Now beg my forgiveness!". Really, the perfect example of Nice Guy Syndrome.

This topic is repetitive as "Cause and Effect", but it is popular. Still think Barkley was worse and I believe it was implied he did have fantasies with existing people on board the Enterprise and was caught.

The main difference is that Barclay’s violation is identified as a violation by “Hollow Pursuits,” and was acknowledged that he had issues he needed to deal with in a way that didn’t violate privacy. “Galaxy’s Child” had La Forge violate privacy and be rewarded for it.

 

[DonIago]

On the one hand, I feel the word "seduce" has unpleasant implications, and FWIW I think Geordi would be appalled if he felt his actions were being construed in that manner (though maybe it would be the splash of cold water to the face that he seemed to need at times).

OTOH, I don't read Geordi as just pursuing a platonic friendship either based on the dinner scene set-up. "Seduce" may be too strong a word, but he was definitely looking to be more than platonic friends, and as noted was a bit manipulative in pursuit of that goal.

 

[Michael]

Just rewatched the episode the other day as part of a whole series rewatch and I do agree with those saying that Geordi's behavior didn't age particularly well. His desire to connect to the real Brahms in the hopes of pursing a romantic (or platonic) relationship are completely understandable and human. It's part of the reason why Geordi is still one of my favorite characters on the show.

But the way he goes about trying to end up with her, and especially that scene in the holodeck where he tries to lay the blame with her, are problematic. The worst thing is that the writers even had Brahms give in and and accepting some of that blame, acting like she did something wrong.

I don't think it's unrealistic, even by today's standards, that people end up becoming friends after something like this, like they did on the show. But still some aspects of this episode leave a bad taste in my mouth. I can accept it for what it is, an episode of television made more than 30 years ago, and still like it despite these oddities.

… I believe it was implied he did have fantasies with existing people on board the Enterprise and was caught.

Implied? That was the whole plot of his first episode on the show.

 

[Oddish]

IMHO, "seduce" seems pretty accurate to me. Even if Geordi wasn't actively trying to get in Leah's pants that night, it seemed like that was his long term goal. He was already out of line at that point, and when he didn't apologize profusely for having his holo-Leah (who should have been deleted long before) discovered, that made it worse. If this had happened IRL, Geordi could expect a severe talking-to from Riker or Picard, and possibly some mandatory sensitivity training as well.

 

[Skipper]

On the one hand, I feel the word "seduce" has unpleasant implications, and FWIW I think Geordi would be appalled if he felt his actions were being construed in that manner

I think there is some misunderstanding about the term "seduce". I see that many here believe that seducing is going into full "50 Shades" mode. Anything just below this is a very normal Platonic interaction.

Wiktionary define seduce as

(transitive) To entice or induce (someone) to engage in a sexual relationship.

Of course Geordie's ultimate goal was to have sex with her. All the actions he made were aimed at this. Lightning, music, food and so so. Or does anyone really want to claim that if Brahms had wanted to end the evening by having sex with him, the latter would have been absolutely surprised? "What? The cozy light, the sensual music, your favorite dish were only because I was looking for your sincere and platonic friendship!"

 

[Mojochi]

Yes, there is. He knows a lot about her and tries to use the knolegde to seduce her. And he's not honest about how he got this information. Like the fact she likes fungili. Brahms is surprised, and says, “I love fungili.” La Forge’s answer is to feign surprise and say, “Really?” He doesn’t say, “I know, I did a little research on you and found that out.” He lies to her and misleads her and makes her think that he came up with that totally on his own and look, doesn’t that make us simpatico, because I also like fungili just like you, and we should totally have sex now.

It is dishonest and puts Geordie in a position of superiority in the interaction (because knowledge is power). And the he lies again, with the absurd justification "What?!? I'M OFFENDED! I just offered friendship! Now beg my forgiveness!". Really, the perfect example of Nice Guy Syndrome.

Again, you're comingling my points. When I say there's no professional power dynamic, it was specifically to refute the claim that he has no place asking her to a private dinner at all. She doesn't work under him. He hasn't got any hold or sway over her career or life etc... I'm just saying there's nothing wrong with the Enterprise's Chief Engineer asking a Daystrom Institute Design Engineer out to a private dinner, while she's aboard to research his work together

Now, what you go on to say, & what I honestly don't much disagree with, speaks to the point of how he handled that encounter, & I think most of us are in agreement that how he did it was wrongful.

The main difference is that Barclay’s violation is identified as a violation by “Hollow Pursuits,” and was acknowledged that he had issues he needed to deal with in a way that didn’t violate privacy. “Galaxy’s Child” had La Forge violate privacy and be rewarded for it.

I might disagree a little bit with that too. 1st, there is acknowledgement that Geordi was wrong, by Geordi himself at the very end. Maybe it's not as pronounced, but it's there. 2nd, he wasn't really rewarded for it. He worked through it, and made amends. Plus, it is a mischaracterization to say he has an issue like Barclay's who is essentially engaged in surreptitious behavior chronically

Geordi had 1 instance, where a lot of the factors that developed were inadvertent. He didn't intentionally stalk Leah & probe her life, to deliberately amass info about her, with a plan to use it to manipulate her. He had an encounter where the computer offered up the things he found out, & when he found himself interacting with her for real, he (wrongfully) leaned in on that info as a crutch, to try to get her to like him more easily, & withheld how he'd come by it. To say he's like Barclay is what I mean when I think people overinflate this

Of course Geordie's ultimate goal was to have sex with her. All the actions he made were aimed at this. Lightning, music, food and so so. Or does anyone really want to claim that if Brahms had wanted to end the evening by having sex with him, the latter would have been absolutely surprised?

This is all an oversimplification imho. He took (Less than totally ethical) steps to improve his chance of appealing to her personally, with a hope that she might develop similar feelings for him that he had for her. That any of it is inherently sexually seductive in nature is overblown imho.

If he'd had the lights at that level already, & just happened to have that music playing naturally, it would be hard to suggest that this environment was beset with sexual energy. I'd call it more a comfortable dinner setting, like you'd legit have at a restaurant. That he orchestrated it beforehand with the dinner in mind, implies he does have interest in impressing her & appealing to her personally, but sexually driven? That's a reach imho

 

[DonIago]

TL;DR but if he'd had the lights set at that level and that music playing naturally I still would have thought it was an inappropriate atmosphere for the ostensible purpose of the dinner.

 

[Skipper]

If a male worker invited a male colleague he had just met with the excuse of a "business dinner" and welcomed him with soft lighting, sensual music and preparing his favorite dishes, the latter would never, never, ever think that the former is only "interested in a platonic friendship".

But for some bizarre reason one would have to believe that by changing the gender of the invitee, sex is suddenly completely out of the equation. And if she thought that the host had the goal of sleeping with her, it would mean that she unjustly thinks ill of him and should also apologize at the end of the epis... er dinner.

Here we are really engaging in incredible mental gymnastics to try to justify Geordie. It's clear as day that he wanted to have sex with her and thought that every lie and subterfuge was acceptable to accomplish this.

 

[STEPhon IT]

Again, you're comingling my points. When I say there's no professional power dynamic, it was specifically to refute the claim that he has no place asking her to a private dinner at all. She doesn't work under him. He hasn't got any hold or sway over her career or life etc... I'm just saying there's nothing wrong with the Enterprise's Chief Engineer asking a Daystrom Institute Design Engineer out to a private dinner, while she's aboard to research his work together

Now, what you go on to say, & what I honestly don't much disagree with, speaks to the point of how he handled that encounter, & I think most of us are in agreement that how he did it was wrongful.
I might disagree a little bit with that too. 1st, there is acknowledgement that Geordi was wrong, by Geordi himself at the very end. Maybe it's not as pronounced, but it's there. 2nd, he wasn't really rewarded for it. He worked through it, and made amends. Plus, it is a mischaracterization to say he has an issue like Barclay's who is essentially engaged in surreptitious behavior chronically

Geordi had 1 instance, where a lot of the factors that developed were inadvertent. He didn't intentionally stalk Leah & probe her life, to deliberately amass info about her, with a plan to use it to manipulate her. He had an encounter where the computer offered up the things he found out, & when he found himself interacting with her for real, he (wrongfully) leaned in on that info as a crutch, to try to get her to like him more easily, & withheld how he'd come by it. To say he's like Barclay is what I mean when I think people overinflate this
This is all an oversimplification imho. He took (Less than totally ethical) steps to improve his chance of appealing to her personally, with a hope that she might develop similar feelings for him that he had for her. That any of it is inherently sexually seductive in nature is overblown imho.

If he'd had the lights at that level already, & just happened to have that music playing naturally, it would be hard to suggest that this environment was beset with sexual energy. I'd call it more a comfortable dinner setting, like you'd legit have at a restaurant. That he orchestrated it beforehand with the dinner in mind, implies he does have interest in impressing her & appealing to her personally, but sexually driven? That's a reach imho

Geordie is wrong even when he acknowledged it but is still scorned by the members of this forum who obviously have a hatred for him, but Barkley gets a pass because he's liked more. The members who had regurgitated this redundant accusations of this character should admit their hatred for him and lets start talking about castration fantasies for Geordie. He was influenced by the seductive nature of the Holodeck and showed a sign of weakness; he's human but I understand the members in this thread who constantly have issues with it and unfortunately this topic will be reopened again with the same members sharing their disgust and hatred for this beloved character... who was vulnerable and was wrong. The episode's resolution on TNG between Geordie and Leah will never be good enough... for them.

 

[Mutai Sho-Rin]

Skipper, your obsession with this has crossed the line. I’m closing this thread.