In a hurry to leave the nexus, why?

[Timo]

The hurry is the least of the problems with the writing. Off the top of my head:

* Why go back to such a last-minute point? Why not go back to when, for example, Soran was on the Enterprise and you had transporters, security guards, and forcefields?

That's pretty simple and strikes at the root of the issue. If Picard apprehended Soran, all would be lost, because (as far as Picard knows) Soran's doomsday weapon would be in the hands of the Klingons whose whereabouts were unknown back then. By going back to a point where the twisted sisters were under the guns of the Federation Flagship, Picard could exert a measure of control.

The farther back Picard goes, the less control he has. Between then and now, anything can happen. If he tries to alter B in the distant past, he'll lose forever the ability to alter A here and now. Stop the Borg, how? They were stopped by a fluke as matters unfolded; Picard couldn't trust himself to do any better a putative second time around - and he would certainly lose track of Soran's starkiller if trampling on butterflies that far back.

* Assuming you want to bypass the easy sensible route as described above, why is Kirk picked? I know, if you can go to when ever, why not pick up somebody that's really an ass-kicker, or how about taking weapons or a ship with you?

Whom would Picard know? The movie established every reason for him to suspect Kirk would be aboard. There would be none for him to think Clark Kent would be available.

* And why only one person? How about ganging up on Soran?

Again, with whom? Picard can dream up a whole army, but dreaming up will lead to his destruction - clinging on to reality is his only hope of ever achieving anything real. Hard to tell if he achieved any as matters now stand, but it's at least a theoretical possibility that he really stopped a real planet from blowing up for real.

* How do you even know you left the Nexus for certain?

This isn't a plot problem. It's a plot-enhancing feature.

* How did you leave the Nexus? If you can't fly a ship into it and the only way found to possibly get in is to let it sweap you away on a planet's surface (which, by the way, how in the world do you find out that is possible?), how in hte world do you exit it so easily?

Obviously the thing grants you all your wishes. But only once you are aboard! You'd get VIP treatment, complementary drinks, and precision paradrop at your request once you managed to board Air Force One and flash your psychic-paper ID, but jumping onto a speeding jet flying over you at 20,000 feet is gonna be tricky.

* If you can pick the solar system, galaxy, planet, and spot on the planet you can get back to along with a general time frame, why can't you put yourself someplace useful, like at the controls of the rocket?

For a moment, I got this vision of Picard bronco riding the toy rocket...

But as we see, Picard can't operate the rocket. And stopping Soran will stop the rocket. Stopping the rocket won't stop Soran.

* Man, of all the potential people inside the Nexus, what dumb luck you happen to not only run into another human, but a Starfleet officer and a previous Enterprise Captain! Lucky break is lucky break!

The Nexus does requests. What else would Picard have been able to ask for? He knew Guinan, and he knew about Kirk. He didn't want to meet Soran's echo. And that's pretty much it.

* If in the Nexus time has no meaning, then how does the Nexus know what time you are thinking of to go back to?

It has a well-designed user interface. Why would it have a poorly designed one?

* How do you communicate with the Nexus? Is it sentient? Sentient enough to keep you alive, communicate with you, send you back in time, but not enough to avoid ships and planets.

Why should it avoid planets? Going to planets is a good thing - that's how passengers can get aboard. And ships stumble onto its path at their own peril - a cruise liner can't dodge every stupid peanut shell trying to sail across her path. The purple color should be a warning horn of sufficient loudness already; if you see purple mist in Trek, it's usually about horrible death or worse.

* If again avoiding the easy sensible route from the first example, doesn't Kirk know anybody esle there that he can tell something along the lines of, "Hey, could you wait five or ten minutes, then come after me incase I get shot in the back like a little bitch?"

Why should Kirk know anybody in there? He just arrived. At best, he might ultimately meet some of the El-Aurians who got sucked in. But he hasn't even had time to wrap his brain around the idea that he could ask that of the Nexus.

* How does it know which reality to send you to? If you have to tell it, how do you know which reality you were from?

That goes for every time travel adventure in Trek, too. It just happens that you always find the correct branch of the timeline. Or then Ziggy does it for you.

We've seen one episodes where the boundaries of time and space break own and multiple Enterprises appeared, so we know there are tons of alternate realities, so if the Nexus is a convergence of time and space, they're all mixed up and jumbled in there. So, how do we even know Kirk is dead? Is that the Kirk from the timeline of the show or a Kirk from an alternate reality? Then Kirk could still be alive in the Nexus. There could be hundred of Kirks in there, overwhelming tiem and space with the magnitude of awsome they have.

Which is all to the merit of the Nexus concept, not to its detriment.

Timo Saloniemi

 

[tharpdevenport]

That's pretty simple and strikes at the root of the issue. If Picard apprehended Soran, all would be lost, because (as far as Picard knows) Soran's doomsday weapon would be in the hands of the Klingons whose whereabouts were unknown back then.

Not necessarily. We don't, as I recall, really know when Soran gave the sister the trilithium, and even if he did do it before then, there are other factors at play:

* He coded it and would only give them the code after they had lived up to their bargin.

* They're idiots and in all these years since the events in TNG, the best they can come up with is material they don't know of or how to work with, from a theif they are taking the words of.

* Even if they get it, they're not exactly rocket scientists and probably wouldn't be able to make the use out of it that they thought they would. Most likely they'd end up trading it in the black market.

* Since future Picard is back in the past, he can alert Federation authorities and the hunt would go down. It would also occur on the Klingon's end because they'd not want these sisters getting in power, and the Rolumlans would also be conducting the hunt because not only did officers die during its theft, they would want it to sway things on their power.

The farther back Picard goes, the less control he has. Between then and now, anything can happen. If he tries to alter B in the distant past, he'll lose forever the ability to alter A here and now.

Not necessarily. Therein lies the time paradox. But this one is so fucked up we might as well call it the super karate monkey death paradox. It doesn't matter what happens, because the whole thing is impossible so it throws out the window rationallity (bad writers -- go to your rooms!). In order to get sent back to the past, he has to had been in the future in the Nexus, so no matter what he alters, this weird paradoxical bullshit kind of works backwards and seems to necessitate he will always know.

Oh, what a fuck job of movie writing. Yes, I'll once again state it: NO V'GERS!

Stop the Borg, how? They were stopped by a fluke as matters unfolded; Picard couldn't trust himself to do any better a putative second time around - and he would certainly lose track of Soran's starkiller if trampling on butterflies that far back.

Which quote of mine are you refering to, so I can make my reply?

Whom would Picard know? The movie established every reason for him to suspect Kirk would be aboard. There would be none for him to think Clark Kent would be available.

That's the thing -- the Nexus is some weird convergence of time and space; Guinan even went on to say in her own words that it doesn't exist in our universe or play by the same rules.

In there, Picard has access to anybody, living or dead. Even people from the future who get caught up in the Nexus, would be there since time just does what ever it wants there. If he can call on Kirk, he can call on Tasha, or any other person he knew who is dead. The list is only bound by his abilities to find people in the Nexus.

This isn't a plot problem. It's a plot-enhancing feature.

Oh you cruel devil you.

For a moment, I got this vision of Picard bronco riding the toy rocket...

Hey, what ever floats yur boat.

But as we see, Picard can't operate the rocket. And stopping Soran will stop the rocket. Stopping the rocket won't stop Soran.

Actually, that's not what we saw: Picard operated it enough to lock it out. And given more time, with Soran not knowing he is at the controls, he could have figured more out.

It has a well-designed user interface. Why would it have a poorly designed one?

There Nexus has no apparent interface at all -- I don't follow you.

Why should it avoid planets? Going to planets is a good thing - that's how passengers can get aboard.

Oh, oh, okay, so now it's a well meaning inept thing like the giant Lincoln Log from the ST:IV. LOL, no!

And ships stumble onto its path at their own peril - a cruise liner can't dodge every stupid peanut shell trying to sail across her path. The purple color should be a warning horn of sufficient loudness already; if you see purple mist in Trek, it's usually about horrible death or worse.

Um, can't agree with that. If the captain of a ship, big or small, out on the open seas saw a giant floating swirly orange and yellow thing with lightening bolts coming out of it, obviously visable from a distance, I would think they would avoid that.

The only things I can come up with for the refugee ships is that they either didn't have the people who knew what they were doing at the scanning controls, the ships stalled were pulled into the wake of the ribbon, or perhaps during their escape they were attacked by another vessel and left adrift, unable to move.

That goes for every time travel adventure in Trek, too. It just happens that you always find the correct branch of the timeline. Or then Ziggy does it for you.

And it's always annoying.

Which is all to the merit of the Nexus concept, not to its detriment.

Timo Saloniemi

Nah, don't buy it. Picard and Kirk could have parted ways two easy ways and prevented all their ills, as described in earlier posts by me. Kirk doesn't have to go with Picard.

 

[Lance]

While I agree that the Nexus is just one pile of magic nonsense with ita ability to allow anyone to time travel, to physically travel anywhere in the universe, to grant you everything you wish for, to keep you alive forever I think there was a valid reason for Picard to act quickly. Since the Nexus was also able to hypnotise you into staying there forever he had to move quickly while he could before he became like Kirk forever chopping wood or whatever Kirk's ideal fantasy was.

If he had waited 10 millions years or so he would have been lost forever to his Christmas ultimate fantasy.

I like this. It makes sense, and I'm even a little embarrassed to admit that for 23 years it hadn't occurred to me. But it's brilliant, one can definitely rationalize it as being Picard fighting the 'Nexus Effect'. If he'd allowed himself to fall into his inside joy, then he'd have forgotten all about Veridian III altogether.

 

[tharpdevenport]

But it's flushed down the toilet, all that magical fantisy pull, by some dude entering and asking you to come back with him.

 

[Timo]

Not necessarily. We don't, as I recall, really know when Soran gave the sister the trilithium

Actually, we have a pretty good reason to think that he didn't give it to them until they came to pick Soran up from the observatory ("No, Lursa, I have the weapon."). But Picard is ignorant of the crucial bits of dialogue, and cannot risk the (as such more likely) possibility that the Duras sisters already have the weapon. Anything beyond that would be reckless speculation on his part.

Which quote of mine are you refering to, so I can make my reply?

"Quote of yours"?

Going back to do X (thwart the Borg, save Rene, stop Trump from getting elected, whatever) was a big point of contest in the general discussion, and anything deviating from going back just enough to knock down Soran would appear to fall within that category. That is, in terms of my argument, where going farther back risks messing up the chance to affect things closer to now.

That's the thing -- the Nexus is some weird convergence of time and space; Guinan even went on to say in her own words that it doesn't exist in our universe or play by the same rules.

In there, Picard has access to anybody, living or dead. Even people from the future who get caught up in the Nexus, would be there since time just does what ever it wants there. If he can call on Kirk, he can call on Tasha, or any other person he knew who is dead. The list is only bound by his abilities to find people in the Nexus.

That sounds like an awfully big stretch. Why should Tasha Yar be in the Nexus just because she happens to be dead? Kirk and Guinan are there because they went there. Don't complicate the issue with counterproductive speculation, is my suggestion.

Actually, that's not what we saw: Picard operated it enough to lock it out. And given more time, with Soran not knowing he is at the controls, he could have figured more out.

That Picard had to resort to the clamps is enough to establish he had no idea how the thing really was supposed to work. Given more time, Soran would just have more time to intervene; the very point of Picard's trick was that it was last-second stuff.

There Nexus has no apparent interface at all -- I don't follow you.

It does the bidding of the user, including the unconscious bidding. That's a pretty good interface, and all the more respect to it for not being apparent. The Nexus isn't the enemy of the heroes; it isn't a neutral natural phenomenon; it's a wish-fulfilment machine that never puts a word or deed in edgewise.

Oh, oh, okay, so now it's a well meaning inept thing like the giant Lincoln Log from the ST:IV. LOL, no!

Why not? It doesn't do anything evil in the movie or its known backstory. So why should it be anything but well meaning?

It doesn't appear to be particularly inept, either. Where did you get that from?

Um, can't agree with that. If the captain of a ship, big or small, out on the open seas saw a giant floating swirly orange and yellow thing with lightening bolts coming out of it, obviously visable from a distance, I would think they would avoid that.

Yes. So it's not really the fault of the thing if a collision nevertheless takes place.

The only things I can come up with for the refugee ships is that they either didn't have the people who knew what they were doing at the scanning controls, the ships stalled were pulled into the wake of the ribbon, or perhaps during their escape they were attacked by another vessel and left adrift, unable to move.

What we know of the ribbon is that by the 24th century, it's a well-known phenomenon with a schedule and a route (even though the route apparently changes with every pass). This is not true of the 2290s yet, as neither Starfleet nor the refugee ship skipper demonstrates any knowledge. Put together, it's likely the Nexus is an old phenomenon, but a first-time (and perhaps last-time) visitor to Earth in the prologue.

Where do the heroes meet it? In deep interstellar space? It was three lightyears distant when the E-B set out to rendezvous with it. It must have been moving at respectable warp in order to perform its 40-year loop, but we know it moves at walking pace when brushing on planets (much like a coach performing its rounds); has it now slowed down in order to pick up passengers at Proxima Centauri or is it still at cruising speed? The E-B seems to have no trouble flying alongside it butt first, but that was no problem for the E-nil while next to the high-warp V'Ger, either. So it appears to have an "encompassing warp field" or whatnot. The Lakul skipper says his ship was "caught", which goes well with "encompassing". And quite possibly the refugee ships and the Nexus were even headed for the same destination, negating the "nobody can accidentally bump on anybody else in the vastness of space" aspect.

Nah, don't buy it. Picard and Kirk could have parted ways two easy ways and prevented all their ills, as described in earlier posts by me. Kirk doesn't have to go with Picard.

But Picard asks him to. And he says yes. It's not a case of "have to", it's a case of Kirk doing the right thing. As always.

Timo Saloniemi

 

[tharpdevenport]

Actually, we have a pretty good reason to think that he didn't give it to them until they came to pick Soran up from the observatory ("No, Lursa, I have the weapon."). But Picard is ignorant of the crucial bits of dialogue, and cannot risk the (as such more likely) possibility that the Duras sisters already have the weapon. Anything beyond that would be reckless speculation on his part.

But in the end that's only one possibility that may not even come to pass (and amongst other things I suggested). And in the end, again, Picard should outway it with what has already happened. He's already made the decision to go back in time and change things, altering what happened. Who knows what happened as a consequence of that action. If you're gonna screw with time, then you might as well try for the best reasonable outcome.

"Quote of yours"?

Going back to do X (thwart the Borg, save Rene, stop Trump from getting elected, whatever) was a big point of contest in the general discussion, and anything deviating from going back just enough to knock down Soran would appear to fall within that category. That is, in terms of my argument, where going farther back risks messing up the chance to affect things closer to now.

Well, I had been talking about the Borg in one or more threads and I didn't want to waste my time searching to find out if this was one of them and the way your wrote your post made me think you might be referecing some quote of mine about the Borg.

Well, aside from you throwing a generabl blanket outcome on it, we don't have to argue that alternative, Picard already went back in time and changed things in Generations, so it's done and over with. The argument now is that he made bad decisions that don't make any sense.

That sounds like an awfully big stretch. Why should Tasha Yar be in the Nexus just because she happens to be dead? Kirk and Guinan are there because they went there. Don't complicate the issue with counterproductive speculation, is my suggestion.

This leads to the magical McGuffin argument: every single thing about the Nexus is a big stretch. Everything. It's entirely reasonble Picard could have picked up anybody he could talk out of leaving the Nexus. Any single person in there.

That Picard had to resort to the clamps is enough to establish he had no idea how the thing really was supposed to work. Given more time, Soran would just have more time to intervene; the very point of Picard's trick was that it was last-second stuff.

That Picard could even lock it down at all is enough to establish it wasn't that hard. A little time, he could have done something, further more, he could have brought weapons, devices, what ever, back with him to disable or destroy it. Again, another bad decision.

It does the bidding of the user, including the unconscious bidding. That's a pretty good interface, and all the more respect to it for not being apparent. The Nexus isn't the enemy of the heroes; it isn't a neutral natural phenomenon; it's a wish-fulfilment machine that never puts a word or deed in edgewise.

I don't think any of us, most especially the writers who created it, know what exactly the Nexus does or how it does it or to what degree it is even self aware. The whole thing is a giant convergence of space fuckery which only leads to question after question about it.

Why not? It doesn't do anything evil in the movie or its known backstory. So why should it be anything but well meaning?

It doesn't appear to be particularly inept, either. Where did you get that from?

I'm just tired of this assumption that every giant thing from Trek that causes harm, is somehow benevolent despite its actions.

And it doesn't appear intelligent from its actions either. We are both assuming something, only with my assumption we have a thing that takes peole against their will, damns them for eternity by tempting them with what ever they want, destroys ships (and surely it's encountered ships long, long, long ago and knows what happens when it gets too close), and them gives people a chance to screw with the outcomes of time -- a can of worms; maybe it'll work, maybe not, but certainly something intelligent wouldn't even do that.

What we know of the ribbon is that by the 24th century, it's a well-known phenomenon with a schedule and a route (even though the route apparently changes with every pass).

Only Guinan and Soran appear to know what it is. Picard knows about all kinds of obscure stuff and is a Starfleet Captain, but didn't know what the Nexus was.

visitor to Earth in the prologue.

We can't know that. And when did it visit Earth in the film?

Where do the heroes meet it? In deep interstellar space? It was three lightyears distant when the E-B set out to rendezvous with it. It must have been moving at respectable warp in order to perform its 40-year loop, but we know it moves at walking pace when brushing on planets (much like a coach performing its rounds); has it now slowed down in order to pick up passengers at Proxima Centauri or is it still at cruising speed?

No, I'm going to go with bad writing. And ny second choice is the actions Soran perfomed, mess with the Nexus' ability to travel at speculatory light speeds.

The E-B seems to have no trouble flying alongside it butt first, but that was no problem for the E-nil while next to the high-warp V'Ger, either.

I'm not going to compare one giant space McGuffin to another giant space McGuffin on how they work. It's so out there it's not even worth talking about.

And the Enterprise B got too close to it and got struck, killing Kirk. Who knows what the affects of it are at higher speeds, traveling near it, behind it, what ever.

But Picard asks him to. And he says yes. It's not a case of "have to", it's a case of Kirk doing the right thing. As always.

Timo Saloniemi

And that's the whole thing I have bene aon about -- bad decisions. Picard and Kirk or other people from the Nexus, could have done any number of things that could be deemed "right". Does the Department of Temporal Investigations think it's right to amend time if a Starfleet Captain thinks it's okay?

 

[Timo]

But in the end that's only one possibility that may not even come to pass (and amongst other things I suggested).

And you always take into account the worst case scenario. Nothing else would allow you to retain the privilege of wearing that uniform.

If you're gonna screw with time, then you might as well try for the best reasonable outcome.

Which is what Picard is doing here. Trying to be Jesus is neither "best" nor "reasonable".

Well, aside from you throwing a generabl blanket outcome on it, we don't have to argue that alternative, Picard already went back in time and changed things in Generations, so it's done and over with. The argument now is that he made bad decisions that don't make any sense.

Naw. The argument is that he stuck to the path of minimum risk for maximum outcome, by

1) not going too far into the past and by playing it safe
2) tackling the problem at hand rather than distant cosmic abstractions
3) striking at the prime target and not its incidental support assets
4) introducing a minimum number of all-new variables

This leads to the magical McGuffin argument: every single thing about the Nexus is a big stretch. Everything. It's entirely reasonble Picard could have picked up anybody he could talk out of leaving the Nexus. Any single person in there.

That's just silly. You are essentially saying that because Picard flies a starship, he should be able to go to ancient Gaul, the inside of Wesley's kidney, and the Romulan Senate private parking lot. There are some specific plotlines where the abilities of a starship are established - obviously so, because it's utter fiction and requires definitions. But the definitions are never complete, and never need to be. Specifically, Picard could do all of the above because these were plot points in specific episodes. But before those episodes, we already got a pretty good inkling of what a starship "normally" can do.

The Nexus is a reasonably simple and compact new scifi concept: it grabs people and fulfils their fantasies. We get two or three expert witness statements on its abilities and possible limitations, which is more than we got for starships for the first couple of years of Star Trek. And going beyond those and pretending that the movie gives Picard the mandate to raise the Army of the Dead is just inane.

That Picard could even lock it down at all is enough to establish it wasn't that hard. A little time, he could have done something, further more, he could have brought weapons, devices, what ever, back with him to disable or destroy it. Again, another bad decision.

Picard faces a complex technological marvel and fights it by physically clamping it. The caveman act should be suggestive enough - but apparently it goes flying past some of the audience... Sigh.

I don't think any of us, most especially the writers who created it, know what exactly the Nexus does or how it does it or to what degree it is even self aware.

Yet you pretend to know it can raise the dead from random graves? Exactly?

The whole thing is a giant convergence of space fuckery which only leads to question after question about it.

Which describes every element of Star Trek, from transporters to uniforms. But there are questions and then there are stupid questions.

I'm just tired of this assumption that every giant thing from Trek that causes harm, is somehow benevolent despite its actions.

May I recommend coffee?

But the Nexus never caused any harm. Soran did.

And it doesn't appear intelligent from its actions either. We are both assuming something, only with my assumption we have a thing that takes peole against their will, damns them for eternity by tempting them with what ever they want, destroys ships (and surely it's encountered ships long, long, long ago and knows what happens when it gets too close), and them gives people a chance to screw with the outcomes of time -- a can of worms; maybe it'll work, maybe not, but certainly something intelligent wouldn't even do that.

Spoken by a message board participant on the subject of televised entertainment... Do you hate and fear your evil DVD player and sinister vacuum cleaner much, too?

Only Guinan and Soran appear to know what it is. Picard knows about all kinds of obscure stuff and is a Starfleet Captain, but didn't know what the Nexus was.

The "some kind of an energy ribbon" phenomenon was recorded in Starfleet archives. The name Nexus came from Guinan. The schedule and route again came from Starfleet archives (or at least I can't see Guinan memorizing such things and then entering them into the astrography database just before Picard and Data's scene at the map).

We can't know that. And when did it visit Earth in the film?

Within three lightyears, I mean. If it had done that before, it would probably have been spotted in the 2250s, 2210s, 2170s and so forth.

No, I'm going to go with bad writing.

And I'm going with bad watching. Both ways work, but the point here is that none of the rest of Star Trek is any different.

I'm not going to compare one giant space McGuffin to another giant space McGuffin on how they work. It's so out there it's not even worth talking about.

Which rules out Star Trek as a subject of discussion, which is a pity.

And the Enterprise B got too close to it and got struck, killing Kirk. Who knows what the affects of it are at higher speeds, traveling near it, behind it, what ever.

And? Jets today aren't eeeeevil for killing birds. Laptops aren't eeeeevil for zapping curious ants.

Picard and Kirk or other people from the Nexus, could have done any number of things that could be deemed "right".

And still somebody would have complained.

Does the Department of Temporal Investigations think it's right to amend time if a Starfleet Captain thinks it's okay?

According to "Trials and Tribble-ations" and the like, that's exactly how it works... Make up a good argument for "I had the best of intentions" and you're clear.

Of course, Picard and Kirk are veterans of time travel both. But it always worked out fine for Kirk, except for that one time where he refrained from meddling and had to give up Joan Collins. It always backfired for Picard. No wonder the two have a different attitude towards rules and regulations.

Timo Saloniemi

 

[trekshark]

I just thought of another problem myself. When Picard leaves the Nexus to stop Soran, why aren't there 2 Picards?

I'd claim quantum leap style jump into his past self but that wouldn't explain Kirk.

As for the original question, he was probably afraid that staying in would cause obsession like soran had

 

[tharpdevenport]

And you always take into account the worst case scenario. Nothing else would allow you to retain the privilege of wearing that uniform.

How do we even know this? I mean, really? We're talking screwing with history that we never really know the alternative results of and investigations from the Temporal Investigations Department that we really never know the end results of, and best I recall only saw once in D.S.9..

Naw. The argument is that he stuck to the path of minimum risk for maximum outcome, by

1) not going too far into the past and by playing it safe
2) tackling the problem at hand rather than distant cosmic abstractions
3) striking at the prime target and not its incidental support assets
4) introducing a minimum number of all-new variables

1. Yeah, but it's arbitrary -- how far is too far when you're already screwing with time, which isn't a good idea and someone like Picard should know better?

2. Which I didn't suggest. One of my earlier suggestions was simply to go back to the Enterprise D when Soran was on it. What was that? One day earlier? Maybe less?

4. I think this is a false argument. No one man can know what variables he will create from messing with time. If you're gonna screw with it, just try to do the best you can with what you got and with as little meddling as possible, but that doesn't mean you're stuck to going back to about ten minutes earlier. I mean come, we don't have to talk months, years, decades, or centuries here, just a day.

That's just silly. You are essentially saying that because Picard flies a starship, he should be able to go to ancient Gaul, the inside of Wesley's kidney, and the Romulan Senate private parking lot.

No, I didn't say that or imply that. I've said it's a convergence of space and time where he could come across anybody, alternate timeline people, and tech he finds there. I never implied this was "Innerspace". And yes, if he can go anywhere in the Nexus and wants to go the Romulan Senate private parking lot, then why the hell not? It's not like he's gonna run out of time.

And going beyond those and pretending that the movie gives Picard the mandate to raise the Army of the Dead is just inane.

How? It's a convergence of time that operates out of normal space or some such (what ever the hell Guinan said). You're putting your own personal limitations upon something that seems to have endless limitations, which is at least open to possibility.

And okay, you think getting an army of dead is unreasonable, all right, how about living people? How about Tasha before she died? How about Tash from the past before she was executed on Romulus? How about some alternate reality Tash? Or any scenario or person. The Nexus is an implied large play ground that seems to only be hindered by one's imagination.

Picard faces a complex technological marvel and fights it by physically clamping it. The caveman act should be suggestive enough - but apparently it goes flying past some of the audience... Sigh.

He has little time, trying to avoid Soran and then Soran pulled a weaon on him and ordered him away. Picard didn't have the time or chance. Going back earlier, could have gave him the time. You just keep assuming it's too complicated just because he locked it down and nothing else under duress.

Yet you pretend to know it can raise the dead from random graves? Exactly?

I never once said that. I've said or implied with all the time and possible alternate realities that converge in the Neus, there are people to chose from. Further more, how exactly did Picard bring himself and Kirk back when their bodies were eliminated? Sounds to me like the Nexus raised the dead.

Which describes every element of Star Trek, from transporters to uniforms. But there are questions and then there are stupid questions.

Oh come now, just because we aren't agreeing doesn't mean you have to throw an odd giant blanket over everything in the Trek universe. Uniforms have meaning and a function, transporters are a tehcnology that can be explained in-verse and have functions and programs and parts, but the Nexus is a giant ball of anything that we only have what little we were told about it on screen, to go by.

But the Nexus never caused any harm. Soran did.

Seriously, how do any of us know this? We don't, we're guessing. We never meet any possible beings who control it, hear any possible thoughts it might have, so forth and so on.

]Spoken by a message board participant on the subject of televised entertainment... Do you hate and fear your evil DVD player and sinister vacuum cleaner much, too?

I'll try to the vacuum to grant my inner wishes and send me back in time, but I won't hold my breath for it to happen. But do let me know if your toaster ever does this for you.

Within three lightyears, I mean. If it had done that before, it would probably have been spotted in the 2250s, 2210s, 2170s and so forth.

Yeah, and there's the problem with it. It's another pointless and needless addition to Trek canon. Now we have to account for why nobody really knows much about it after all that time and why Guinan is apparently the only person to ever given them a name.

ATTN all future Trek writers: NO V'GERS

Which rules out Star Trek as a subject of discussion, which is a pity.

Fiction has a frame work, characters, and universe building that can have varying degrees of believability, and future is certainly not unreasonable as a tiem frame unless you want to argue that time stops some time soon-ish. The Nexus on the other hand how no known boundaries, no known limitations, may not even be bound by the rules of the universe -- it's all over the place and anything you, me, or any other fan say about it is nothing more than utter speculation; that's a large playground in the deepest regions of the Time Wasted Zone. It's not even worth talking about, in fact I'd go with it's worth forgetting.

And? Jets today aren't eeeeevil for killing birds. Laptops aren't eeeeevil for zapping curious ants.

Let me know when any of these jets or laptops start to display any signs of understading your inner thoughts and sending you back in time. Time jets -- sounds like a cheesy 1980's science fiction series.

And still somebody would have complained.

Yeah, but complaints aren't the issue -- somebody is always going to complain about something. If you're going to get bitched at, you might as well try to do better. About ten minutes beforehand is piss poor.

According to "Trials and Tribble-ations" and the like, that's exactly how it works... Make up a good argument for "I had the best of intentions" and you're clear.

We don't really know that. The episode ends with Sisko being told he'll recieve their report in a month, plus, with history amended, the Temporal Investigations people can't really know that either. They're actually kind of useless in that regard.

One off the cuff remark about thinking there is nothing to worry about, doesn't mean it's all okay.

Of course, Picard and Kirk are veterans of time travel both.

No, they just traveled. Flying on planes wouldn't make me familiar with how planes work inside.

But it always worked out fine for Kirk, except for that one time where he refrained from meddling and had to give up Joan Collins.

But we don't really know, as we don't get to see the consequences of their actiosn versus what would have happened had they done nothing. Plus, Joan was was needed elsewhere to have a fight for Blake's affections. If you know that one, you my friend, had too much time on your hands like me.

 

[Timo]

How do we even know this?

Know what? That one should consider the worst case scenario and not think that since there's a chance the terrorist might not have that nuclear warhead, there are better things for the hero to do?

Picard's solution involves the least assumptions, i.e. plays it safe. To assume that the mechanisms of time travel somehow favor carelessness is silly, especially if one doesn't know the mechanisms. And all Picard knows is that time travel slaps him in the face every time. (Kirk OTOH knows that time travel saves the world every time.)

1. Yeah, but it's arbitrary -- how far is too far when you're already screwing with time, which isn't a good idea and someone like Picard should know better?

Why bother with questions like that, when Picard is going for "as little as possible" anyway? It's a black-and-white, on/off issue: minimize time travel or do not minimize time travel. Picard minimized.

2. Which I didn't suggest. One of my earlier suggestions was simply to go back to the Enterprise D when Soran was on it. What was that? One day earlier? Maybe less?

But already unmanageably far, because Picard doesn't know where the Duras sisters are at that point. He holds all the strings on Veridian, but very few of them at any earlier timepoint.

4. I think this is a false argument. No one man can know what variables he will create from messing with time. If you're gonna screw with it, just try to do the best you can with what you got and with as little meddling as possible, but that doesn't mean you're stuck to going back to about ten minutes earlier. I mean come, we don't have to talk months, years, decades, or centuries here, just a day.

But there Picard already concretely knows that he can't make it - that the Durases won't appear on schedule if there is no Soran for them to pick up. It's pretty clear-cut for him.

No, I didn't say that or imply that. I've said it's a convergence of space and time where he could come across anybody, alternate timeline people, and tech he finds there. I never implied this was "Innerspace". And yes, if he can go anywhere in the Nexus and wants to go the Romulan Senate private parking lot, then why the hell not? It's not like he's gonna run out of time.

But he is, as the tar pit will keep on sucking him deeper...

What concrete evidence is there of him being able to reach into futures or alternate timelines? There is concrete evidence of Kirk being there, because Guinan tells him so. It's Guinan's expertise that guides him to that solution. And if Guinan is misleading him again, it's not as if he can do anything about it.

How? It's a convergence of time that operates out of normal space or some such (what ever the hell Guinan said). You're putting your own personal limitations upon something that seems to have endless limitations, which is at least open to possibility.

There are at least three levels of limits in evidence. One is Picard's own imagination: if he can't dream it up, he won't. The second is Guinan's level of knowledge and her willingness to divulge it: if he and we can't trust her, there's nobody else to go to. The third is the significant absence of evidence: nobody is using Nexus in ways more fantastic than the one we witness, to the best knowledge of Picard. And surely somebody would if he or she could.

And okay, you think getting an army of dead is unreasonable, all right, how about living people? How about Tasha before she died?

She still isn't in the Nexus. And we still have no reason to think people not in the Nexus could be accessed. Okay, Picard could go to Tasha like he went to Soran, but then he'd be stuck there, years and lightyears away from the action. It's not as if there would be evidence of an ability to both leave and stay. Or more exactly, if Picard leaves, his echo stays but, like Guinan's and presumably Soran's, can't really get anything done.

He has little time

And the less, the better - because Soran is the top dog and will defeat him. He already did, several times, despite Picard flying the Federation Flagship and being surrounded by his intrepid crew and all. Thwarting Soran is best done when it's too late for him to do anything about it. Which goes very nicely with the intuitive idea that going farther back would introduce more unmanageable variables.

You just keep assuming it's too complicated just because he locked it down and nothing else under duress.

It very much appears he couldn't read the interface. It wasn't locked up or anything, it was just too difficult to read. But the clamps came with obvious visual cues.

Further more, how exactly did Picard bring himself and Kirk back when their bodies were eliminated? Sounds to me like the Nexus raised the dead.

That it obviously did. But only those who died in the Nexus. And, more specifically, of the Nexus. Kirk wasn't blown up in vacuum, Picard wasn't pulverized by the nova. The pink mist got them.

Postulating capabilities beyond those, and then insisting that failure to see the capabilities is an error, just seems utterly unnecessary and unsatisfactory.

Oh come now, just because we aren't agreeing doesn't mean you have to throw an odd giant blanket over everything in the Trek universe. Uniforms have meaning and a function, transporters are a tehcnology that can be explained in-verse and have functions and programs and parts, but the Nexus is a giant ball of anything that we only have what little we were told about it on screen, to go by.

Nope. They are all black boxes that can sprout new capabilities at a writer's whim. Uniforms can suddenly have built-in heaters or invisible seams, say. The Nexus is no different, and we absolutely shouldn't jump ahead of the writers even when we might be able to demonstrate that there's a good chance X will have a feature the writers so far haven't thought of. Not far ahead, at any rate.

Seriously, how do any of us know this? We don't, we're guessing. We never meet any possible beings who control it, hear any possible thoughts it might have, so forth and so on.

The difference between guessing that X exists against evidence and guessing that X doesn't exist ought to be pretty clear.

I'll try to the vacuum to grant my inner wishes and send me back in time, but I won't hold my breath for it to happen. But do let me know if your toaster ever does this for you.

...It did happen to Homer Simpson.

Yeah, and there's the problem with it. It's another pointless and needless addition to Trek canon. Now we have to account for why nobody really knows much about it after all that time and why Guinan is apparently the only person to ever given them a name.

Why should anybody know more about it than shown? It appears every four decades or so and apparently never returns what it grabs. Except for people who subsequently go very strange; if Guinan calls if the Nexus, why should anybody else? (Except for her compatriot and quite possibly close acquaintance, that is.)

ATTN all future Trek writers: NO V'GERS

What are the alternatives? More space war and inter-crew soap?

That's where we don't really meet. Anything from a seamless uniform to an interphasic torpedo is free of limitations other than the obvious: the unstated is less likely to be true than the stated. V'Ger, the Whale Probe and the Nexus are sufficiently defined quantities for their one-off adventures, and even come with great built-in limiters for eliminating them from further dramatic consideration: they are too much for our heroes or villains to handle, and fly out of their reach before the end credits roll. Never to return? Far from said, but return within the lifetimes of the heroes is stated to be unlikely.

No, they just traveled. Flying on planes wouldn't make me familiar with how planes work inside.

And none of the sort is required. Picard just learns that flying gets him airsick and his luggage lost, while Kirk learns he meets great chicks aboard and the lavatories are big enough. They subsequently view flying accordingly!

Timo Saloniemi

 

[tharpdevenport]

Know what? That one should consider the worst case scenario and not think that since there's a chance the terrorist might not have that nuclear warhead, there are better things for the hero to do?

How do we know what Picard's rationalization was? How do we know he thinks what he did was right? How do we know he doesn't think what he did was right but decided anyway. All I see is stupidly written plot where Picard can't take on Soran though there were anyway number of ways to do it, so he brought Kirk back to uneeded fan service.

And all Picard knows is that time travel slaps him in the face every time. (Kirk OTOH knows that time travel saves the world every time.)

So, are you saying Picard gets some kind of auto erotic pleasure from doing it again even though he knows he'll be bitch slapped by time?

Why bother with questions like that, when Picard is going for "as little as possible" anyway? It's a black-and-white, on/off issue: minimize time travel or do not minimize time travel. Picard minimized.

The least possible would have been to do nothing and stay in the Nexus. Yes, it's unfair, yes it's devistating, but that's how time played out, and he and others got dealt a bad hand. The simple act of going back, no matter how late, even one minute 'till, is not as little as possible, it's completely re-writting what happened.

But already unmanageably far, because Picard doesn't know where the Duras sisters are at that point. He holds all the strings on Veridian, but very few of them at any earlier timepoint.

You keep fucosing on the Duras sisters as a reason to not go a day or so or less back and do a better job. This isn't a power vacuum where nobody is trying to stop people like them. Even if they aren't so stupid that they can do nothing with the trilithium, there is still the Federation to investigate the matter, the Klingons, the Romulan Star Emprie who would surely not want Klingons to have such a thing, etc. The Duras sisters will be dealt with, it's not an either or situation that forces Picard into coming back minutes prior.

After all, the script has Geordi saying trilithium is an experimental compound developed by the Romulans. And the Romulans were attacked to get it, as we saw on the observatory. I think they'll be investigating that and punishment will be brutal.

But he is, as the tar pit will keep on sucking him deeper...

We don't kjow how long it takes for that affect to take hold, we only know it was such a powerful thing that both Guinan and Soran wanted to go back. Picard experienced it for far longer than they did, and he easily resisted it once he realized it wasn't real.

Plus, all Picard needs is another Starfleet Captain to get sucked in and ask for his help, and like Kirk he'll just zip out of there like nothing ever happened for decades.

There are at least three levels of limits in evidence. One is Picard's own imagination: if he can't dream it up, he won't. The second is Guinan's level of knowledge and her willingness to divulge it: if he and we can't trust her, there's nobody else to go to. The third is the significant absence of evidence: nobody is using Nexus in ways more fantastic than the one we witness, to the best knowledge of Picard. And surely somebody would if he or she could.

These aren't limits of the Nexus, they're limits of the people who experienced it. We don't really knjow what the limits of the Nexus are, just there it's super fantastical.

As for anybody using the Nexus in more fantastic ways, neither of us can know that. We only see Picard , in a short time span of how ever long the Nexus' life has been. We don't see anybody else try, we don't see anybody else in there except for Kirk. It's not a lack of evidence -- we have nothing to go by. We don't know who has been in there, what they have done utilizing the Nexus, and what has happened as a result. If Picard go go back in time willy nilly, surely others have done who knows what.

She still isn't in the Nexus. And we still have no reason to think people not in the Nexus could be accessed.

Tasha, anybody at all, doesn't have to have been sucked in, 'cause based on what was said on screen, we know if can be anybody from history. Guinan:

That ribbon isn't just some random energy phenomenon traveling through space... it's a doorway. It leads to another place... the Nexus. It doesn't exist in our universe... and it doesn't play by the same rules either.

Scotty:

Their life signs are... are phasing in and out of our space-time continuum.

And we know once there tiem still exists and that you can manipulate it. That gives you a wide range in time from which to chose people. Kirk chose to be with someone he loves, and best I can tell, Soran wants to go back there simply to be happy again and that perhaps means having his wife and kids back. Hum, you read the original script and you find a nubmer of lines changes and things missing. Picard even names Soran's wife in the original script.

Thwarting Soran is best done when it's too late for him to do anything about it.

Thwarting Soran also done far better when he is on the Enterprise doesn't know Picard knows his intentions. One moment Soran is in 10-Forward or where ever, minding his own business, then suddenly he's beamed into a Brig cell. Done and over with. No last minute battle on a planet that doesn't have a guranteed victory as the outcome.

It very much appears he couldn't read the interface. It wasn't locked up or anything, it was just too difficult to read. But the clamps came with obvious visual cues.

It does not. I've gone back and re-watched the clip. Here is what happened: Picard got at the control panel and within ten second of fiddling with something that is apparently too difficult for him to work with and in another language, he found how to get to the locking controls and locked the rocket. That's on screen, though he may have had an additional amount of time sicne he was already at the rocket. But from where he last was with Kirk to that time, it's not an easy trek, so I'd say he probably had another ten seconds we didn't see on screen. Five seconds later Soran yells at Picard and Picard looks up, no longer being able to see what he is doing, affectively ending his chance to do more. About seven seconds later he has his hands up because Soran has pulled a weapon on him, now there is nothing more he can do.

Picard had no trouble figuring out how to lock it down. And that was not the main screen, he had to get to that from pressing buttons.

Further more I'm reminded, by watchig the clip, that Soran has the control which can cloak the rocket and base, so if Picard had just gone back a little further he could have stopped Soran before he programmed the launch sequence, before he set up the missle base, hell, before Soran even got to the planet. Picard could have done any number of things that could have been minimal, if you are still going by that, since on the planet it is just him and Soran.

That it obviously did. But only those who died in the Nexus.

Well, I for one don't have any indication --based upon what happened in the film -- that Picard ever left the Nexus. If it wasn't Troi and Barclay showing up on Voyager, offhand I can't say there is anything that indicates Picard left the Nexus or altered time. For all we know the events of the films happened inside the Nexus.

The pink mist got them.

You know, when you saying like that ... it's even worse. Bad writers!

Nope. They are all black boxes that can sprout new capabilities at a writer's whim. Uniforms can suddenly have built-in heaters or invisible seams, say. The Nexus is no different, and we absolutely shouldn't jump ahead of the writers even when we might be able to demonstrate that there's a good chance X will have a feature the writers so far haven't thought of. Not far ahead, at any rate.

Ah, no. Cloths can change. They can have heaters in them, they can have coolers in them, they can have lights that flash on and off whenever the user has shit his or her pants, what ever, cloths can do things and short of them doing odd things like sending somebody back in time or curing cancer, it's perfectly normal, plus I seriously doubt the Trek writers are going to throw such balony in. The Nexus on the other hand is almsot wholy undefined, unknown, and apparently capable or magnitudes of things we can't eve begin to grasp. The Nexus is different. Cloths are cloths, color, style, or capabilities -- it's a defined thing. The Nexus is a giant floating whatever that we are never really cleared up on, plus there's no way for a character who has been there, to really know the extent of the Nexus.

The difference between guessing that X exists against evidence and guessing that X doesn't exist ought to be pretty clear.

It's not clear at all. All we have to go by is the emotional experience of one person who went there ever so breifly. All we have is a little dialogue from people who know about as much about the Nexus as I do quantum physics.

...It did happen to Homer Simpson.

If only Picard had watched "The Simpsons".

Why should anybody know more about it than shown?

The Alpha quadrant is full of people and ships. Taht this thing flies through space and nobody knows much to anything about or even has a name for it, but tons of nebulas and space phenomina are charted and known, is just bizare.

What are the alternatives? More space war and inter-crew soap?

Why must it be that just because I think it's a stupid idea to have big powerful things that can later all of existence, do who knows what based on what supposedly somebody does with it, or evn time, depending on what gigantic and/or powerful McGuffin thing is brought into canon willy nilly, doesn't mean good writers can't come up with all kinds of good ideas. No V'gers doesn't mean nothing at all. There's plenty to do in the Trek universe.

And none of the sort is required. Picard just learns that flying gets him airsick and his luggage lost, while Kirk learns he meets great chicks aboard and the lavatories are big enough. They subsequently view flying accordingly!

Timo Saloniemi

Oh, come on, I think we all know by the end of a flight Kirk has ripped his shirt "accidently" and romanticized multiuple stewardesses.