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I'm Not liking Where they are taking the Doctor

Um they ARE his enemies and seeing as he needed information from them that they wouldn't give him out of the kindness of their non-existent hearts since they want him DEAD or converted into a Cyberman he didn't have a lot of options their.

Really? He destroyed them because they were his enemies? How is that remotely deducible from that episode? He did that to extort information from them, not because he was embroiled in good vs. evil battle against their forces as in times past. He destroyed them to prove a point - which is spelled out in dialogue on Demon's Run itself a few scenes later. That's entire point of the scene. Did you miss that? The Doctor embraces overkill now. He's not engaging in actions for the sake of the greater good in that story; he begins showing off. He does things because he can, not because he must; he's allowing vengeance to rule him, not ruling his vengeance.

The point of the episode is that the Doctor has reached a tipping point. He's become reckless. He's become arrogant. He's not just confident; he's overconfident, and he'll now ride roughshod over you if you get in his way. He's forgotten that "Doctor" means "healer" and a person to be welcomed and admired, and not stopped to consider that his name has come to mean "Great Warrior," in some quarters, and feared and dredded by good and bad alike. His actions have reached a point in which they terrify otherwise good people. His enemies aren't acting out because they are Nazi's bent on destruction of all that is alien, like the Daleks, or to improve others and survive (Cybermen) or take over the universe (the Master) or overcome space and time (The Time Lords). They are simply afraid of him. That's it. They are, like the alliance in Season 5, trying to preserve the universe from what they fear the Doctor has become or may become in the relative future. That's a meme that Moffat has gone waaaay out of his way to repeat not just this year, but last year as well. You can call that BS and deny it all you want - but it's what the show has explicitly stated and demonstrated.
 
Um they ARE his enemies and seeing as he needed information from them that they wouldn't give him out of the kindness of their non-existent hearts since they want him DEAD or converted into a Cyberman he didn't have a lot of options their.

Really? He destroyed them because they were his enemies? How is that remotely deducible from that episode? He did that to extort information from them,

As you will notice in the highlighted sections I said that. I also pointed out WHY he has to use extortion to get anywhere.
 
He destroyed an entire legion of Cybermen just to prove a point, not because they were his enemies or allied against him.

Um they ARE his enemies and seeing as he needed information from them that they wouldn't give him out of the kindness of their non-existent hearts since they want him DEAD or converted into a Cyberman he didn't have a lot of options their.

Hell, we're talking about a guy a who commited genocide against his own race.

You mean the race that was going to destroy all of existence to save their own asses. That race.

the things that he has done with that power have caused a whole universe of people to grow terrified of him.

It wasn't the whole universe it's one group of possibly religious extremists/nuts who may be trying to destroy the universe.

On the other hand there are also people who see the Doctor as so important and such a good guy the killing him makes his killer a worse warcriminal than Hitler. Which reflects really badly on the Silence when you think about that.
Hey, this is what I like about the Doctor. One man's hero is another man's mortal enmy.


Yeah, the Master IS a mustache twirler. Which works. Which is why it doesn't work for the Valeyard. There's already one...
Maybe the Valeyard is actually The Master pretending to be an evil aspect of the Doctor!

Nope. He's not.

Yeah, the Master IS a mustache twirler. Which works. Which is why it doesn't work for the Valeyard. There's already one...
Maybe the Valeyard is actually The Master pretending to be an evil aspect of the Doctor!
That would only work if The Valeyard was a future incarnation of The Master himself considering The Master appears in the final serial of that season.
What better way for him to hide in plain site.
 
Um they ARE his enemies and seeing as he needed information from them that they wouldn't give him out of the kindness of their non-existent hearts since they want him DEAD or converted into a Cyberman he didn't have a lot of options their.

Really? He destroyed them because they were his enemies? How is that remotely deducible from that episode? He did that to extort information from them,

As you will notice in the highlighted sections I said that. I also pointed out WHY he has to use extortion to get anywhere.

and which I addressed in the statement you edited out of my own...

not because he was embroiled in good vs. evil battle against their forces as in times past.

Try again.
 
Um they ARE his enemies and seeing as he needed information from them that they wouldn't give him out of the kindness of their non-existent hearts since they want him DEAD or converted into a Cyberman he didn't have a lot of options their.

Really? He destroyed them because they were his enemies? How is that remotely deducible from that episode? He did that to extort information from them,

As you will notice in the highlighted sections I said that. I also pointed out WHY he has to use extortion to get anywhere.

So that makes it okay? How does he know he couldn't have negotiated, or bought or, hell, even stolen the information he needed? Would the Doctor have been justified in destroying New New York if he needed information from the Cat Nuns and they refused to give it to him because it broke patient confidentiality? Or maybe blowing up a couple of towns in England in 1940 because Churchill refused to listen to him about the Daleks?

He butchered thousands of creatures that weren't invading, or converting, or anything. They were just sitting around doing whatever it is they do when they aren't being villainous, and the Doctor killed a whole bunch of them just to get information in a hurry that, given that he owns a time machine and thus has infinite time, he could've gotten at his leisure. It was terrorism, plain and simple. He didn't even give the Cybermen a chance to say "no" before setting off his bombs. Even the Daleks do that much.
 
This Doctor is a bit more practive than he was in the past, but destroying the Cybermen was a bit much I agree, he's always been a defender of the weak and helpless, there was nothing heroic in the destruction of the Cybermen. And using humans to commit genocide against the Silents was a bit much too, an odd thing for a time traveller to do since all he had to do was go back and insure that they don't gain their foothold on earth.
 
This Doctor is a bit more proactive than he was in the past, but destroying the Cybermen was a bit much I agree, he's always been a defender of the weak and helpless, there was nothing heroic in the destruction of the Cybermen. And using humans to commit genocide against the Silents was a bit much too, an odd thing for a time traveler to do since all he had to do was go back and insure that they don't gain their foothold on earth.

Apparently The Time Lord Victorious didn't vanish with the recent regeneration.
 
This Doctor is a bit more proactive than he was in the past, but destroying the Cybermen was a bit much I agree, he's always been a defender of the weak and helpless, there was nothing heroic in the destruction of the Cybermen. And using humans to commit genocide against the Silents was a bit much too, an odd thing for a time traveler to do since all he had to do was go back and insure that they don't gain their foothold on earth.

Apparently The Time Lord Victorious didn't vanish with the recent regeneration.

That's true, without the Time Lords and the higher powers in the Universe the Doctor is left on his own.
 
This Doctor is a bit more proactive than he was in the past, but destroying the Cybermen was a bit much I agree, he's always been a defender of the weak and helpless, there was nothing heroic in the destruction of the Cybermen. And using humans to commit genocide against the Silents was a bit much too, an odd thing for a time traveler to do since all he had to do was go back and insure that they don't gain their foothold on earth.

Apparently The Time Lord Victorious didn't vanish with the recent regeneration.

That's true, without the Time Lords and the higher powers in the Universe the Doctor is left on his own.

Eventually something is going to have to reign him in and I wonder who or what that might be.
 
This Doctor is a bit more proactive than he was in the past, but destroying the Cybermen was a bit much I agree, he's always been a defender of the weak and helpless, there was nothing heroic in the destruction of the Cybermen. And using humans to commit genocide against the Silents was a bit much too, an odd thing for a time traveler to do since all he had to do was go back and insure that they don't gain their foothold on earth.

Apparently The Time Lord Victorious didn't vanish with the recent regeneration.

In fact, I think he's gotten worse. Tennant's Doctor flipped out when his Duplicate destroyed the Dalek fleet at the end of "Journey's End." He even offered to take Davros with him in the TARDIS.

Smith's Doctor murders fleets of Cybermen because he wants information. I'd say that's a major change.
 
The 10th Doctor also knew that if he lived longer he'd end up just like the time war era Timelords. Obsessed with power and insane.

The transition from 10th to 11th was just a temporary pause. The doctor still thinks he's a god.
 
The 10th Doctor also knew that if he lived longer he'd end up just like the time war era Timelords. Obsessed with power and insane.

The transition from 10th to 11th was just a temporary pause. The doctor still thinks he's a god.

It also didn't help when The Face Of Boe called him "The Lonely God" Way to go Jack.
 
This Doctor is a bit more practive than he was in the past, but destroying the Cybermen was a bit much I agree, he's always been a defender of the weak and helpless, there was nothing heroic in the destruction of the Cybermen. And using humans to commit genocide against the Silents was a bit much too, an odd thing for a time traveller to do since all he had to do was go back and insure that they don't gain their foothold on earth.

This is why I wish they'd be a little clearer on the whole "time can be rewritten" thing. That would surely go against the basic premise of the series - begging the question, why doesn't he always just go back and thwart all his enemies' schemes before they even get off the drawing board? I'm sure as far as going back and stopping the Silence before they gain their foothold on Earth goes, Moffat would invoke the old, "crossing your own timeline", "fixed point" etc.
 
This Doctor is a bit more practive than he was in the past, but destroying the Cybermen was a bit much I agree, he's always been a defender of the weak and helpless, there was nothing heroic in the destruction of the Cybermen. And using humans to commit genocide against the Silents was a bit much too, an odd thing for a time traveller to do since all he had to do was go back and insure that they don't gain their foothold on earth.

This is why I wish they'd be a little clearer on the whole "time can be rewritten" thing. That would surely go against the basic premise of the series - begging the question, why doesn't he always just go back and thwart all his enemies' schemes before they even get off the drawing board? I'm sure as far as going back and stopping the Silence before they gain their foothold on Earth goes, Moffat would invoke the old, "crossing your own timeline", "fixed point" etc.

well, I suppose you could always claim it would go like genesis of the daleks and no matter what he did the timeline would still generally end up the same way anyway... still, it's a bit of a cop-out ;)
 
Putting aside the stuff the Doctor does, there's also the stuff he doesn't do that could make him appear villainous to the unsympathetic observer. Like Mels said, a major factor in Hitler's rise to power was that the Doctor didn't stop him. And, sure enough, he was right there. He could've trapped Hitler in a mirror, or did a Time Lord mindmeld to fix his brain so he was no longer a murderous psychopath, or had the the Tesselating robot impersonate him for more than a bit longer than they intended to to fake his death, or jogged back in time another couple decades and gotten him an admission to art school with the understanding that under no circumstances was he to flunk out.

What did he do? He put Hitler in the closet to get him out of the way, after possibly provoking the London Blitz. Great job. Way to save the world, world-saving guy.

On the other hand, when Harriet Jones makes good on a threat the Doctor himself made ("Swear on the blood of your species to leave in peace," he said. Then when the bad guy went back on his word, the Doctor just let the violation of his oath stand. Sorry, Doc, but if you didn't want to have to back it up if he forfeited his planet, you shouldn't have made the threat. Harriet was still being merciful by only taking the ship, so it didn't look like Earth's sole defense was a paper tiger in a blue box), well, we can't stand for that. Britain's Golden Age is a small sacrifice compared to ensuring the Doctor is the swingingest guy in the room.

You look at a few comparisons like that, and it doesn't seem unreasonable to argue that people might be better off resolving their own problems and not having the Doctor butt in and make his own decision by fiat. I mean, either way, Hitler kills millions of people, but if the Doctor hadn't been around, the Christmas Invasion would've probably still fallen apart under the weight of it's own bluff, Harriet Jones would've been the best damn PM ever, Harold Saxon wouldn't have assassinated the american president (and who knows how many other people like that poor reporter who were too nosy or in the wrong place at the wrong time), and, to boot, she probably wouldn't have let the 456 get away with their (I suspect) enormous bluff, either.
 
Really? He destroyed them because they were his enemies? How is that remotely deducible from that episode? He did that to extort information from them,

As you will notice in the highlighted sections I said that. I also pointed out WHY he has to use extortion to get anywhere.

So that makes it okay? How does he know he couldn't have negotiated,

How do you negotiate with people who don't have the ability to FEEL ANYTHING.
 
As you will notice in the highlighted sections I said that. I also pointed out WHY he has to use extortion to get anywhere.

So that makes it okay? How does he know he couldn't have negotiated,

How do you negotiate with people who don't have the ability to FEEL ANYTHING.

Captain Janeway managed to work out a deal with The Borg and even Guinan said that one it might be possible to negotiate with them. So I have to agree, that's it wouldn't been impossible for The Doctor to have found a less destructive means to get the information from The Cybermen.
 
So that makes it okay? How does he know he couldn't have negotiated,

How do you negotiate with people who don't have the ability to FEEL ANYTHING.

Captain Janeway managed to work out a deal with The Borg

And then they tried to stab her in the back. In fact if it weren't for having a first officer who though that it was a very bad idea and the Borg having their ship destroyed Janeway would have ended up a Borg drone for her troubles.
 
How do you negotiate with people who don't have the ability to FEEL ANYTHING.

I don't know, I'm not Mister "If there's one thing I can do, it's talk." The Cybermen certainly seemed to think it was possible for them to negotiate, since they were the ones to first propose an alliance with the Daleks back in "Doomsday."
 
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