I'm Not liking Where they are taking the Doctor

[Starkers]

Anyway...

this whole the Doctor has to apologize for what he's done is BS. It was BS when the Time Lords kept punishing him for "interfering" and it's BS when River of all people lectured him about bringing fear to the universe.

Give me a break. He's the only one who seems to be keeping order in the universe. It's like people's fear of the police. That doesn't mean they are as bad as the criminals. You don't want the Doctor messing with you, then don't try to enslave people or destroy a planet or try to conquer the universe.

Plus this whole notion that the Doctor doesn't care has been taken too far. Of course he cares, maybe he cares too much.

Yeah modern TV is all about questioning "heroes" to lower them to level of the villains (because villains are cool and misunderstood) but that's juvenile.

Personally I think it equally juvinille to imagine heroes are always whiter than white. Even the kindest, noblest people will have flaws, we all do because we're all human (well except the Doctor who's only half human )

I don't want the Doctor to be this perfect man who never makes a mistake, I like him as this decent character who only wants to do good, but who sometimes goes a trifle too far!

 

[Yminale]

Yes, the Doctor is a hero, but he is also incredibly arrogant.

The Doctor isn't arrogant. He's confident. I don't have a problem with him going over his head but he certainly doesn't feel superior.

He has too much power,

He only has enough power to solve the dilemma of the week and nothing more. He's not Superman. In fact he's successful because he makes his enemies underestimate him.

the things that he has done with that power have caused a whole universe of people to grow terrified of him.

Like what, saving the universe from the Daleks, the Master, the Cyberman, crazy Gods and evil empires. Fine, the universe perceives him as a threat, BUT that's a long way from saying he really is a threat or humbling him for reacting towards evil.

He is impulsive, has way too much power, and he doesn't have the self-restraint to keep that power under control.

That's not the Doctor Who I've been watching for the past 30 years. The problem is that he shows too much restraint. Waiting for others to solve the problem until it's almost too late. Impulsive, he generally doesn't act until the problem present itself. Self-restraint, he has a time machine but doesn't abuse it.

 

[Yminale]

Personally I think it equally juvinille to imagine heroes are always whiter than white. Even the kindest, noblest people will have flaws, we all do because we're all human (well except the Doctor who's only half human )

I never argued that the Doctor was perfect. The point is even with all his flaws, the Doctor is noble and kind to a fault.

I don't want the Doctor to be this perfect man who never makes a mistake, I like him as this decent character who only wants to do good, but who sometimes goes a trifle too far!

How did he go too far in a "Good Man goes to War". Granted it's not the normal way the Doctor handles things. Once again, why should the Doctor apologize for REACTING to the actions of his enemies. Their IRRATIONAL fear of him doesn't justify the anti-Doctor coalition's actions.

 

[Peacemaker]

How did he go too far in a "Good Man goes to War".

"I want them to call you Col. Runaway."

He destroyed an entire legion of Cybermen just to prove a point, not because they were his enemies or allied against him.


It got personal, incredibly personal. He became vindictive and petty. It wasn't just about finding Amy, it verged into vengeance. In so doing, he validated the fears of those allied against him. That is how he went too far.

 

[Starkers]

Personally I think it equally juvinille to imagine heroes are always whiter than white. Even the kindest, noblest people will have flaws, we all do because we're all human (well except the Doctor who's only half human )

I never argued that the Doctor was perfect. The point is even with all his flaws, the Doctor is noble and kind to a fault.

I don't want the Doctor to be this perfect man who never makes a mistake, I like him as this decent character who only wants to do good, but who sometimes goes a trifle too far!

How did he go too far in a "Good Man goes to War". Granted it's not the normal way the Doctor handles things. Once again, why should the Doctor apologize for REACTING to the actions of his enemies. Their IRRATIONAL fear of him doesn't justify the anti-Doctor coalition's actions.

I don't think he went too far in AGMGTW, but clearly he's gone too far in the past, and that's what we're talking about here. A coalition of people who have grown up hearing a thousand legends from a thousand worlds about a single man who drops out of the sky and changes everything. Now he might make changes that are good, but over time it might become apparent that such changes were anything but.

Case in point:

He forces Harriet Jones (a decent PM) out for having the temerity to defend her planet.

In the vaccuum left by her passing who turns up? Harold Saxon. Now I grant you the Master had the archangel network on his side, but still I suspect there being no real leadership to oppose him probably helped.

Of course the Doctor defeats the Master...which leaves Mr Green clear to become PM and conive to sacrifice a load of our children...

But of course the Doctor is long gone by then.

He is, in essense, a neo-con. He's the Invasion of Iraq rather than the Arab Spring.

He's a good man, a noble man, but much like Kirk and Picard he has a tendency to shake the established order then bugger off before the dust has a chance to settle, and I imagine if that happens enough times to a species, they might eventually come to revile him.

"Well you know it was a good thing the Doctor got rid of Queen Zok, but in hindsight Emperor Quix wasn't that bad really, definitely preferable to General Thax!"

 

[RoJoHen]

That's not the Doctor Who I've been watching for the past 30 years. The problem is that he shows too much restraint. Waiting for others to solve the problem until it's almost too late. Impulsive, he generally doesn't act until the problem present itself. Self-restraint, he has a time machine but doesn't abuse it.

I don't know what Doctor Who you've been watching for the last 30 years, but it's absolutely the Doctor I've been watching for the last 6 years. The guy is 900+ years old! His character is allowed to change. The whole point of the David Tennant specials was that the Doctor was getting way too full of himself.

How did he go too far in a "Good Man goes to War".

"I want them to call you Col. Runaway."

He destroyed an entire legion of Cybermen just to prove a point, not because they were his enemies or allied against him.


It got personal, incredibly personal. He became vindictive and petty. It wasn't just about finding Amy, it verged into vengeance. In so doing, he validated the fears of those allied against him. That is how he went too far.

Exactly right. Hell, we're talking about a guy a who commited genocide against his own race. This man, as much as he doesn't like guns, doesn't seem to have much of a problem with the mass murder of entire civilizations.

Matt Smith is almost worse than Tennant because Smith's Doctor does it with a cocky grin. He likes that he has this power, and yes, he does think he's better than other people.

That was the whole point of River's speech in AGMGTW. The Doctor is on a very destructive path. He is letting things like vengeance control his actions. I'm not saying that it's who he has always been, but it's certainly who he's been turning into over the last few years.

 

[Sindatur]

That's not the Doctor Who I've been watching for the past 30 years. The problem is that he shows too much restraint. Waiting for others to solve the problem until it's almost too late. Impulsive, he generally doesn't act until the problem present itself. Self-restraint, he has a time machine but doesn't abuse it.

I don't know what Doctor Who you've been watching for the last 30 years, but it's absolutely the Doctor I've been watching for the last 6 years. The guy is 900+ years old! His character is allowed to change. The whole point of the David Tennant specials was that the Doctor was getting way too full of himself.

How did he go too far in a "Good Man goes to War".

"I want them to call you Col. Runaway."

He destroyed an entire legion of Cybermen just to prove a point, not because they were his enemies or allied against him.


It got personal, incredibly personal. He became vindictive and petty. It wasn't just about finding Amy, it verged into vengeance. In so doing, he validated the fears of those allied against him. That is how he went too far.

Exactly right. Hell, we're talking about a guy a who commited genocide against his own race. This man, as much as he doesn't like guns, doesn't seem to have much of a problem with the mass murder of entire civilizations.

Matt Smith is almost worse than Tennant because Smith's Doctor does it with a cocky grin. He likes that he has this power, and yes, he does think he's better than other people.

That was the whole point of River's speech in AGMGTW. The Doctor is on a very destructive path. He is letting things like vengeance control his actions. I'm not saying that it's who he has always been, but it's certainly who he's been turning into over the last few years.

And it makes sense to start seeing this darker side of him, since the Valleyard isn't far away

 

[RoJoHen]

I only know about the Valeyard from what I've read on wikipedia, but it sounds very interesting. I'd love to see the Dream Lord actor return for the role.

 

[Sindatur]

I only know about the Valeyard from what I've read on wikipedia, but it sounds very interesting. I'd love to see the Dream Lord actor return for the role.

Ah...Watch Classic Colin Baker's Final Series Trial of a Timelord (14 1/2 hour episodes - 3 individual stories of 4 eps each, all wrapped up in an overall story arc that culminates in the final 2 episodes, I believe - I think I got those episode counts right, it's been a number of years since I last saw it.)

Also, there's a really fun Audio Play in the Doctor Who Unbound Series featuring him (Same actor that played him in the Colin Baker episodes, and kind of picks up from those episodes). Now there's an example of going too far meddling with Time and the ramifications thereof (Not aware of any other stories involving him)

 

[Professor Zoom]

That's not the Doctor Who I've been watching for the past 30 years. The problem is that he shows too much restraint. Waiting for others to solve the problem until it's almost too late. Impulsive, he generally doesn't act until the problem present itself. Self-restraint, he has a time machine but doesn't abuse it.

I don't know what Doctor Who you've been watching for the last 30 years, but it's absolutely the Doctor I've been watching for the last 6 years. The guy is 900+ years old! His character is allowed to change. The whole point of the David Tennant specials was that the Doctor was getting way too full of himself.

"I want them to call you Col. Runaway."

He destroyed an entire legion of Cybermen just to prove a point, not because they were his enemies or allied against him.


It got personal, incredibly personal. He became vindictive and petty. It wasn't just about finding Amy, it verged into vengeance. In so doing, he validated the fears of those allied against him. That is how he went too far.

Exactly right. Hell, we're talking about a guy a who commited genocide against his own race. This man, as much as he doesn't like guns, doesn't seem to have much of a problem with the mass murder of entire civilizations.

Matt Smith is almost worse than Tennant because Smith's Doctor does it with a cocky grin. He likes that he has this power, and yes, he does think he's better than other people.

That was the whole point of River's speech in AGMGTW. The Doctor is on a very destructive path. He is letting things like vengeance control his actions. I'm not saying that it's who he has always been, but it's certainly who he's been turning into over the last few years.

And it makes sense to start seeing this darker side of him, since the Valleyard isn't far away

I doubt the Valeyard is going to show up in nuWho.

 

[Sindatur]

I don't know what Doctor Who you've been watching for the last 30 years, but it's absolutely the Doctor I've been watching for the last 6 years. The guy is 900+ years old! His character is allowed to change. The whole point of the David Tennant specials was that the Doctor was getting way too full of himself.


Exactly right. Hell, we're talking about a guy a who commited genocide against his own race. This man, as much as he doesn't like guns, doesn't seem to have much of a problem with the mass murder of entire civilizations.

Matt Smith is almost worse than Tennant because Smith's Doctor does it with a cocky grin. He likes that he has this power, and yes, he does think he's better than other people.

That was the whole point of River's speech in AGMGTW. The Doctor is on a very destructive path. He is letting things like vengeance control his actions. I'm not saying that it's who he has always been, but it's certainly who he's been turning into over the last few years.

And it makes sense to start seeing this darker side of him, since the Valleyard isn't far away

I doubt the Valeyard is going to show up in nuWho.

Doesn't matter, it's already been confirmed that Classic Who counts as Canon (Yea, yea, Canon, Schmanon, it's Dr Who, continuity doesn't count so much....) so, we already know about the existence of him and when he came from. Truth be told, the Dream Lord, is very possibly NuWho's version of the Valleyard, so, in a sense, we may already have met him in NuWho

 

[Professor Zoom]

And it makes sense to start seeing this darker side of him, since the Valleyard isn't far away

I doubt the Valeyard is going to show up in nuWho.

Doesn't matter, it's already been confirmed that Classic Who counts as Canon (Yea, yea, Canon, Schmanon, it's Dr Who, continuity doesn't count so much....) so, we already know about the existence of him and when he came from. Truth be told, the Dream Lord, is very possibly NuWho's version of the Valleyard, so, in a sense, we may already have met him in NuWho

Fair enough.

I don't mind the idea of a darkness inside the Doctor, I just always thought a personification with a ludicrous name like The Valeyard to be a step to far. to much mustache twirling.

 

[Sindatur]

I doubt the Valeyard is going to show up in nuWho.

Doesn't matter, it's already been confirmed that Classic Who counts as Canon (Yea, yea, Canon, Schmanon, it's Dr Who, continuity doesn't count so much....) so, we already know about the existence of him and when he came from. Truth be told, the Dream Lord, is very possibly NuWho's version of the Valleyard, so, in a sense, we may already have met him in NuWho

Fair enough.

I don't mind the idea of a darkness inside the Doctor, I just always thought a personification with a ludicrous name like The Valeyard to be a step to far. to much mustache twirling.

I actually really enjoyed him, yes, he was a mustache twirler, but, so was the Master. That could certainly be toned down for a modern version, because I agree, Mustache-twirling villians went out with the 80s (many folks complained that Anna in new V wasn't one, like Diana was in the original, but, they just don't work in modern TV for the most part)

OH, BTW, why do you say it's a ludicrous name? I even went to Dictionary.com to see if it was a real word, who's definition was driving you to say it was ludicrous

 

[Alidar Jarok]

Since I never saw the serial, did they say he actually physically manifests himself at that point or that they just took the negative aspects of the Doctor between regenerations and caused him to manifest early?

 

[Sindatur]

Since I never saw the serial, did they say he actually physically manifests himself at that point or that they just took the negative aspects of the Doctor between regenerations and caused him to manifest early?

Been a long time since I've seen it, but, I believe all that was said is that he's from in between the 11th and 12 regenerations (IE: between Doctor 12 and 13)

 

[Professor Zoom]

Doesn't matter, it's already been confirmed that Classic Who counts as Canon (Yea, yea, Canon, Schmanon, it's Dr Who, continuity doesn't count so much....) so, we already know about the existence of him and when he came from. Truth be told, the Dream Lord, is very possibly NuWho's version of the Valleyard, so, in a sense, we may already have met him in NuWho

Fair enough.

I don't mind the idea of a darkness inside the Doctor, I just always thought a personification with a ludicrous name like The Valeyard to be a step to far. to much mustache twirling.

I actually really enjoyed him, yes, he was a mustache twirler, but, so was the Master. That could certainly be toned down for a modern version, because I agree, Mustache-twirling villians went out with the 80s (many folks complained that Anna in new V wasn't one, like Diana was in the original, but, they just don't work in modern TV for the most part)

OH, BTW, why do you say it's a ludicrous name? I even went to Dictionary.com to see if it was a real word, who's definition was driving you to say it was ludicrous

what was driving me crazy was it was in that era where apparently ALL Time Lords needs to have a the in their name. THE Rani. THE Valeyard. It's just... diminishing returns, you know.

Yeah, the Master IS a mustache twirler. Which works. Which is why it doesn't work for the Valeyard. There's already one...

 

[RoJoHen]

Yeah, the Master IS a mustache twirler. Which works. Which is why it doesn't work for the Valeyard. There's already one...

Maybe the Valeyard is actually The Master pretending to be an evil aspect of the Doctor!

 

[Hartzilla2007]

He destroyed an entire legion of Cybermen just to prove a point, not because they were his enemies or allied against him.

Um they ARE his enemies and seeing as he needed information from them that they wouldn't give him out of the kindness of their non-existent hearts since they want him DEAD or converted into a Cyberman he didn't have a lot of options their.

Hell, we're talking about a guy a who commited genocide against his own race.

You mean the race that was going to destroy all of existence to save their own asses. That race.

the things that he has done with that power have caused a whole universe of people to grow terrified of him.

It wasn't the whole universe it's one group of possibly religious extremists/nuts who may be trying to destroy the universe.

On the other hand there are also people who see the Doctor as so important and such a good guy the killing him makes his killer a worse warcriminal than Hitler. Which reflects really badly on the Silence when you think about that.

 

[Professor Zoom]

Yeah, the Master IS a mustache twirler. Which works. Which is why it doesn't work for the Valeyard. There's already one...

Maybe the Valeyard is actually The Master pretending to be an evil aspect of the Doctor!

Nope. He's not.

 

[The Nth Doctor]

Yeah, the Master IS a mustache twirler. Which works. Which is why it doesn't work for the Valeyard. There's already one...

Maybe the Valeyard is actually The Master pretending to be an evil aspect of the Doctor!

That would only work if The Valeyard was a future incarnation of The Master himself considering The Master appears in the final serial of that season.