If You Could Rewrite DS9

[Discofan]

So should they thank the Cardassians for saving them from their prejudiced, strict caste based theocracy by murdering and enslaving them? Oh hail Dukat, Saviour of the Bajora

Nope, however, it's quite damning that it took something so catastrophic as the invasion by the Cardassians to get them out of their millennia-old imbecilic caste system. It would be like the USA only realizing that they need a universal healthcare system after a pandemic had decimated their population! One can only hope it won't come to that.

 

[Nyotarules]

Nope, however, it's quite damning that it took something so catastrophic as the invasion by the Cardassians to get them out of their millennia-old imbecilic caste system. It would be like the USA only realizing that they need a universal healthcare system after a pandemic had decimated their population! One can only hope it won't come to that.

Hopefully not, but to equate the two it would be as if 1960's USA only recognised it should grant civil rights and end Jim Crow laws after being invaded by its greatest enemy (the USSR) treating everyone of them like slaves for 40 years. Its a harsh way to learn a valuable lesson.
I wonder if this is why the rest of the galaxy never came to Bajor's aid during those 40 years, some galactic powers might have thought they needed to be taught a lesson?

 

[Discofan]

Hopefully not but to equate the two it would be as if 1960's USA only recognised it should grant civil rights and end Jim Crow laws after being invaded by its greatest enemy (the USSR) treating everyone of them like slaves for 40 years. Its a harsh way to learn a valuable lesson.

I can't argue with that.

 

[DarKush]

I did give you a list of things I dislike about Sisko, culminated in his dropping bombs on children. Just because the latter is by far the most disgusting doesn't mean that the others cease to exist. You choose to believe that they do and then conclude that his dropping bombs on children is the ONLY thing that I have against Sisko. It's not the only thing, but it's the most uncontroversial, indeed. I still think that other examples like his beating up of Garak for killing the Romulan politician (who was about to compromise the war effort) and only a few months later his (quasi) ordering of Worf to kill Gowron for the same reason is quite hypocritical. (Why was it bad to kill the Romulan (whose name I don't remember) but now it's good to kill Gowron?!!!)

However, the worst act of Sisko pales in comparison to Archer's, nothing Sisko ever did comes close to committing genocide by inaction the way Archer did. Archer is by far the worst of all the captains.

I bet you're perfectly OK with me calling Archer a genocidal maniac but take umbrage a the slightest criticism of Sisko as if you gave Sisko a protected status not enjoyed by other captains.

I've noticed that on other sites as well. Quite a few posters being perfectly alright with harsh criticism directed at Kirk, Picard, Janeway, and Archer but becoming militant when similar cases are made against Sisko.

Why do you think that is?

Nice deflection. Not. I don't think you're reading much of anything I've written because you are coming across as very defensive, and I wonder why that is? Me doth protest too much perhaps?

I wrote I have no problem with criticism of Sisko previously, though in your rush to defend yourself and attempt to 'turn the tables' you must have overlooked that. However I do have issues with specious criticism and double standards, of which some of your posts contained IMO when it came to Sisko. To me, you're looking for some excuse that you think will past muster to just express your animus for the Sisko character.

I don't care what claims you make against Sisko or any character, if you can back them up by examples from the show, or other material if that's germane to the discussion or said criticism, and if you are not applying a double standard, i.e. holding Sisko to higher or different standards than you would other captains or Starfleet characters in similar situations. And with your condemnation of Archer I see there is a breakthrough here, that you are looking and comparing the various actions of the captains and that's fine by me. One of the issues I've seen with some-not all-criticism of Sisko in the past is that it's not 'similar cases' that are made against Sisko sometimes. It's selective cases. And usually these people show their hand when they take offense at Sisko refusing to join in Vic's holoprogram due to his discomfort about the segregation of the time period of that program(Why should he care? It was a long time ago! Why can't he get over it?), his identification with his African ancestry, his 'racist' mating choices, and things along that line, and some of that caught my attention as I was perusing this thread.

 

[DarKush]

There’s not much I would change with DS9, however:

-I’m iffy on whether I would’ve promoted Sisko by the end of the pilot episode or earlier than they did.

-There would’ve been a Borg/Sisko rematch.

-Ro Laren would have been a guest star on the show, perhaps like the Trek Lit. novel “Wrath of the Prophets.”

-I would’ve definitely made the Hunters members of the Dominion.

-The Federation-Klingon War would’ve been more vicious. I think DS9, while expanding on the Klingons, made them too weak at times.

-I would’ve done some episodes with the Tzenkethi.

-I think DS9 would’ve been a good place to see the Gorn or Tholians again. Even though I do like the Breen, I think for a Trekkie perspective, if either the Gorn or Tholians had been the new allies in the Dominion it might have been even more special.

Wanted to add to my previous list. I would've left Dukat a blind Bajoran begging on the streets of Bajor by the end of the series. He claims he's Dukat but no one believes him. I think it would've been a fitting end for him, while also leaving him around to bring back in case there was a revival.

 

[kkt]

Would have killed Jadzia right back at season one and have Ezri ASAP.
Would have done more with the Gamna Quadrant as well and less about the boring Bajora.

If they'd brought in Ezri in Season 1, she would have been too young to be an Ensign.

 

[Discofan]

Nice deflection. Not. I don't think you're reading much of anything I've written because you are coming across as very defensive, and I wonder why that is? Me doth protest too much perhaps?

I wrote I have no problem with criticism of Sisko previously, though in your rush to defend yourself and attempt to 'turn the tables' you must have overlooked that. However I do have issues with specious criticism and double standards, of which some of your posts contained IMO when it came to Sisko. To me, you're looking for some excuse that you think will past muster to just express your animus for the Sisko character.

I don't care what claims you make against Sisko or any character, if you can back them up by examples from the show, or other material if that's germane to the discussion or said criticism, and if you are not applying a double standard, i.e. holding Sisko to higher or different standards than you would other captains or Starfleet characters in similar situations. And with your condemnation of Archer I see there is a breakthrough here, that you are looking and comparing the various actions of the captains and that's fine by me. One of the issues I've seen with some-not all-criticism of Sisko in the past is that it's not 'similar cases' that are made against Sisko sometimes. It's selective cases. And usually these people show their hand when they take offense at Sisko refusing to join in Vic's holoprogram due to his discomfort about the segregation of the time period of that program(Why should he care? It was a long time ago! Why can't he get over it?), his identification with his African ancestry, his 'racist' mating choices, and things along that line, and some of that caught my attention as I was perusing this thread.

I think I'll cease this sterile exchange. It's obvious that you've "made up your mind" about me (or is it the "likes of me"? I wonder...) and that nothing I'll say will change anything to that. If you have issues with specious criticism then you obviously don't read the endless diatribes that you direct solely at me and that makes two of us.

Have a nice day!

 

[Bry_Sinclair]

I do wonder what the series would've been like had Starfleet taken a more 'subservient' role to the Bajorans, rather than coming in to oversee DS9 they were there to aide in its operation, as such the Commanding Officer would be a Bajoran Colonel with the First Officer being a Starfleet Commander and the Federation personnel clearly in the minority.

 

[Bad Thoughts]

I do wonder what the series would've been like had Starfleet taken a more 'subservient' role to the Bajorans, rather than coming in to oversee DS9 they were there to aide in its operation, as such the Commanding Officer would be a Bajoran Colonel with the First Officer being a Starfleet Commander and the Federation personnel clearly in the minority.

Intriguing, although it might work better if the SF presence were more diplomatic and aide related.

 

[bolak]

I was never comfortable with the character of Sisko, never really enjoyed watching him; he seemed constantly agitated and snappy and over-reactive and unpredictable. Though that's probably the way TPTB wanted him written, as the anti-Picard. Add in Kira and it was tough work watching DS9 sometimes, almost like Eastenders in Space ( UK joke, sorry ).

Once things started getting serious in that region of space I was always hoping some flag officer would arrive on the station and reassign him elsewhere. Bonus points if it was Commodore Picard.

 

[Discofan]

I was never comfortable with the character of Sisko, never really enoyed watching him; though that's probably the way TPTB wanted him written, as the anti-Picard. He just seemed constantly agitated and snappy and over-reactive. I suppose that's why Starfleet Command sent him to some backwater station where surely he couldn't do too much damage...

Once things started getting serious in that region of space I was always hoping some flag officer would arrive on the station and reassign him elsewhere. Bonus points if it was Commodore Picard.

Definitely! And there were a lot of instances where his reactions were bizarre, to say the least.

Like when he tells Kasidy that he doesn't want to go to Vic's because it isn't an accurate depiction of reality and then when Kasidy confirms that it is indeed NOT an accurate depiction of reality... that convinces him to give it a go!

I mean, seriously? What's wrong with the writers? Short term memory lapse?

 

[Bry_Sinclair]

Like when he tells Kasidy that he doesn't want to go to Vic's because it isn't an accurate depiction of reality and then when Kasidy confirms that it is indeed NOT an accurate depiction of reality... that convinces him to give it a go!

I mean, seriously? What's wrong with the writers? Short term memory lapse?

He's someone who doesn't believe history should be washed over or rewritten, like how there are some people who claim the holocaust never happened. Without knowing the struggles made and learning from past mistakes then there is no learning from them in order to better ourselves and ensure they're not made again.

 

[DarKush]

I think I'll cease this sterile exchange. It's obvious that you've "made up your mind" about me (or is it the "likes of me"? I wonder...) and that nothing I'll say will change anything to that. If you have issues with specious criticism then you obviously don't read the endless diatribes that you direct solely at me and that makes two of us.

Have a nice day!

That's fine. I didn't make any diatribes at you at all. I laid out why I took issue with some of the things you said because I did find those things questionable. The description of what I've said here as 'endless diatribes' seems a bit much, but if that's your perception of things, so be it. It is my hope that my replies here, as well as others in response to your statements does shine some light on why Sisko might not be as bad or beyond the pale as you have deemed him to be. Also that they might provide you (and others with similar viewpoints) with a new lens to see and critique his actions.

I hope you have a nice day as well.

 

[Discofan]

He's someone who doesn't believe history should be washed over or rewritten, like how there are some people who claim the holocaust never happened. Without knowing the struggles made and learning from past mistakes then there is no learning from them in order to better ourselves and ensure they're not made again.

Which is not relevant to what I said, not at all!

Could you and others actually read my posts before you answer them, please? I don't think it's too much to ask.

 

[Bad Thoughts]

Which is not relevant to what I said, not at all!

Could you and others actually read my posts before you answer them, please? I don't think it's too much to ask.

We have, and we know why you decided to reintroduce this horrid debate over Badda Bing, Badda Bang. Your wrote:

Yet Sisko spoke of "our people" when talking to Cassidy Yates about how blacks were treated in the 1960's. That's not coherent with the idea that someone's sexual or racial indentity no longer matters, in fact it sends the opposite message.

The ensuing discussion led to the moderator reading the riot act. It requires only a little analysis to understand what you meant by:

Definitely! And there were a lot of instances where his reactions were bizarre, to say the least.

Like when he tells Kasidy that he doesn't want to go to Vic's because it isn't an accurate depiction of reality and then when Kasidy confirms that it is indeed NOT an accurate depiction of reality... that convinces him to give it a go!

 

[Discofan]

We have, and we know why you decided to reintroduce this horrid debate over Badda Bing, Badda Bang. Your wrote:


The ensuing discussion led to the moderator reading the riot act. It requires only a little analysis to understand what you meant by:

"We have"? I didn't know I was speaking to a collective. When were you assimilated? Was it painful? It's certainly painful to watch. I have the bad habit of answering to the posts I quote according to their ACTUAL contents, not to strawmen issued from my imagination. I see that it's a bad habit that you've got licked. I wouldn't want to be responsible for your falling off the wagon. So maybe you could just ignore my posts, which I am more than willing to do with yours, and leave the answering to people with the same bad habit as mine, IE of answering to actual contents of posts... etc.

Thanks in advance for your "comprehension".

 

[Discofan]

I still don't get why we can't talk about rewriting DS9 in a thread about rewriting DS9...

Sounds like a problem one has in an Orwellian nightmare or is it Kafkaian? Maybe a little of both.

 

[CorporalCaptain]

If I could rewrite DS9:

1) I'd scrap the concept of Sisko as the Emissary. Prophets, wormhole aliens, orbs, and Bajoran religious politics are one thing, all well and good, but instilling Sisko with an inherent destiny sacrifices what could have been a far more interesting journey, namely for Sisko to have been confronted with the problem of bridging two cultures and coming to discover in the process the value of an alien culture that he had initially rejected as founded on superstition. Making him a product of that alien culture short-circuited that journey.

2) With the benefit of hindsight, I'd have introduced the Defiant as we knew her early on.

3) No Pah-wraiths. At all.

4) Dax would have gone through several new hosts.

5) Bashir wouldn't have had affairs with or hit on his patients.

 

[Discofan]

If I could rewrite DS9:

1) I'd scrap the concept of Sisko as the Emissary. Prophets, wormhole aliens, orbs, and Bajoran religious politics are one thing, all well and good, but instilling Sisko with an inherent destiny sacrifices what could have been a far more interesting journey, namely for Sisko to have been confronted with the problem of bridging two cultures and coming to discover in the process the value of an alien culture that he had initially rejected as founded on superstition. Making him a product of that alien culture short-circuited that journey.

2) With the benefit of hindsight, I'd have introduced the Defiant as we knew her early on.

3) No Pah-wraiths. At all.

4) Dax would have gone through several new hosts.

5) Bashir wouldn't have had affairs with or hit on his patients.

I agree that they should have done something more interesting about the Dax symbiont, kill the first host during season one and then have her appear only in "dreams" of the next host for example and so forth a couple more times. That would have given us a fuller experience of what it meant to be a joined Trill. Maybe the Zhian'tara could have been something more common and so we would see the different hosts expressing themselves through regular members more often, giving advice and helping to solve a problem on occasion.

We've only seen something like that once (Fields Of Fire) and it wasn't very well done.

 

[TheSeeker]

I still don't get why we can't talk about rewriting DS9 in a thread about rewriting DS9...

You can talk about rewriting DS9 all you want. That's not the problem. The problem people are having is your dismissive attitude when it comes to matters of race. You seem to want to change a lot of things that involve Sisko being a black man, and that will understandably get people's backs up. I would strongly suggest you back off on this front. I don't want to have to get into this again.