If Star Trek Beyond Is The Last Film Should They Start NuTNG or Recast

[Disco]

Re: If Star Trek Beyond Is The Last Film Should They Start NuTNG or Re

I'm sorry, but did you actually watch either film? 2009 threw away the entire prime universe, Abrams Trek is taking place in an alternate reality to all the other Trek series and movies. Not to mention destroying Vulcan. Undermining the credibility of the command structure of Starfleet. Making the de facto good guys of the universe (Starfleet) the bad guys.

What Star Trek have you been watching?

Kirk threatened to annihilate the entire habitable surface of Eminiar VII in "A Taste of Armageddon" and is also part of military espionage in "The Enterprise Incident". Sisko was an accessory to murder in "In the Pale Moonlight" and poisoned the surface of a planet in "For the Uniform". Admiral Leyton attempted to overthrow the duly elected government of the Federation in "Homefront"/"Paradise Lost". Archer steals warp coils in "Damage" and I can go on and on and on and on and on...

As far as Kirk undermining the command structure of Starfleet, I'm guessing you forgot about him stealing the Enterprise, going to a restricted sector and then destroying the Enterprise? Kirk also violated orders in "Amok Time" and regularly pushed his orders to the limits of what he could get away with (See: "The Galileo Seven"/"The Trouble with Tribbles"). That also doesn't count his unique interpretations of the Prime Directive.

For someone who claims that Abrams got it wrong, you sure have missed much of the last 50 years.

The line you're "attacking" is a reference to Abrams-Kirk being promoted without merit to the captaincy of the Federation flagship, thus undermining the command structure. If you know anyone onboard can be made the captain of the ship at the whim of the current captain, for no discernible reason, and the only thing preventing senior officers from undermining those above them simple to gain position... how is that functionally different than the mirror universe? The officers are trained better? They know not to do that kind of thing? Guess everyone but Kirk was paying attention in those ethics classes.

And it's cute that you're ignoring the context of these events. In 2009 this is the first and only encounter we have had with this version of Kirk in that universe. And in that first encounter he's an utter asshat with an idiot for a mentor who emotionally manipulates his superior officer (in every possible sense of the word) to satisfy his own ego and gain the captain's chair. And this is how we're introduced to this version of the character. Basically the opposite of a good Starfleet officer, to say nothing of a good captain. But whatever. I guess character and integrity and the needs of the many are irrelevant in the New Order.

Let's play a game. I'll give you a cookie if you can tell me the substantive difference between how your examples treated their moral dilemmas compared to how Abrams-Kirk treated his. The easiest will probably be "Pale Moon Light" compared to "2009".

Rewatch 2009 without the rose tinted specatales

 

[Shaka Zulu]

Re: If Star Trek Beyond Is The Last Film Should They Start NuTNG or Re

You're running dangerously close to pulling the 'true fan' and 'unwashed masses' cards. Those conversations never end well.

Actually, they're running close to the Trekker foundamentalist thing I mentioned before, in that they (like many others) are trapped at the founding moment of the franchise (or whenever they discovered Star Trek on TV) and can't let go.

 

[Quinton O'Connor]

Re: If Star Trek Beyond Is The Last Film Should They Start NuTNG or Re

I'm glad I'm not trapped. I discovered Trek via TNG's first season.

Granted, I was three weeks old.

 

[Overgeeked]

Re: If Star Trek Beyond Is The Last Film Should They Start NuTNG or Re

Kirk was made First Officer by Pike. Pike made Spock the Captain.

At this point Kirk is a delinquent punk kid with a supposedly high IQ who's joined the academy and is three years in. He's also been placed on academic suspension for cheating. And this is the guy that Pike makes first officer, based on what? His father did something neat 20-some years ago. He also promotes Suspended Cadet Kirk the First Officer of the Federation flagship over every other cadet on the crew... to say nothing of all the other actual graduated officers on the ship. You know, the ones with years of hard work and actual experience at their jobs. Hence the "idiot mentor" line.

When Spock becomes compromised, Kirk assumes command. And it's Spock Prime who comes up with the idea.

No. Spock Prime said, "Trust me, I am compromised." NuKirk then went ahead with that and proceeded to taunt nuSpock with his inability to love his own mother who he had just watched die in front of him as his home planet was being destroyed. Remember Spock's line about being a member of an endangered species? Hence the "emotionally manipulate a genocide survivor" line.

After a Kirk/Spock fight ( a TOS tradition as seen in This Side of Paradise and Amok Time) Spock is convinced.

No. After Kirk taunts Spock with his inability to love his own mother--after just having watched her die--Spock loses it and attacks Kirk. Once Spock calms down he admits he's emotionally compromised and gives up command.

 

[Overgeeked]

Re: If Star Trek Beyond Is The Last Film Should They Start NuTNG or Re

Kirk saved the planet. Sisko hit the sauce.

I like oatmeal-raisin. With walnuts.

Thanks for "trying", but no.

The substantive difference between these two stories, is that in 2009 there was no dilemma for Kirk. There was no choice. He knew he was right, he was destined to be right, and so he charged ahead. To hell with everyone and everything else around him. He was right, helped in no small part by Spock Prime's "You Are the Chosen One" speech. Kirk emotionally manipulates a genocide survivor to take command of the ship in the hopes that he can save the planet. A position he was only in due to having an imbecile for a mentor, aka Pike. And what vast knowledge and experience and years of hard work have lead all these people to have such faith in young nuKirk? The fact that nuKirk's father did something neat decades before (for Pike), and that Kirk Prime was an amazing Captain (for Spock Prime). So this character, nuKirk, did literally nothing to earn his position.

Whereas with Sisko, despite knowing for a fact that the Federation was losing the war with the Dominion, and the only way they could think of that would give them even a chance of turning things around was by bringing the Romulans to their side of the fight, Benjamin struggled with that decision to the bitter end. Over the course of 50 minutes we see Sisko's progression from gung-ho, to leery, to gun-shy, to completely unable to handle the negative repercussions of the decision he made despite that decision eventually working perfectly and helping to save the whole of the Alpha Quadrant from the Dominion.

So on one hand we have an inexperienced, untried, and untrustworthy kid who's given a chance because... destiny, who bullies his way to the top with no sign whatsoever that his actions bother him in the least; on the other we have a captain with years of tactical experience who's proven himself time and again, who struggles deeply with his actions despite them being directly responsible for turning the tide of the war.

To paraphrase, "Kirk got his shot because of cronyism. Sisko saved the Federation."

 

[BillJ]

Re: If Star Trek Beyond Is The Last Film Should They Start NuTNG or Re

To paraphrase, "Kirk got his shot because of cronyism. Sisko saved the Federation."

You can parse it any way you like, but Kirk saved the Federation every bit as much as Sisko did.

 

[CorporalClegg]

Re: If Star Trek Beyond Is The Last Film Should They Start NuTNG or Re

Kirk saved the planet. Sisko hit the sauce.

I like oatmeal-raisin. With walnuts.

Thanks for "trying", but no.

The substantive difference between these two stories, is that in 2009 there was no dilemma for Kirk. There was no choice. He knew he was right, he was destined to be right, and so he charged ahead. To hell with everyone and everything else around him. He was right, helped in no small part by Spock Prime's "You Are the Chosen One" speech. Kirk emotionally manipulates a genocide survivor to take command of the ship in the hopes that he can save the planet. A position he was only in due to having an imbecile for a mentor, aka Pike. And what vast knowledge and experience and years of hard work have lead all these people to have such faith in young nuKirk? The fact that nuKirk's father did something neat decades before (for Pike), and that Kirk Prime was an amazing Captain (for Spock Prime). So this character, nuKirk, did literally nothing to earn his position.

Whereas with Sisko, despite knowing for a fact that the Federation was losing the war with the Dominion, and the only way they could think of that would give them even a chance of turning things around was by bringing the Romulans to their side of the fight, Benjamin struggled with that decision to the bitter end. Over the course of 50 minutes we see Sisko's progression from gung-ho, to leery, to gun-shy, to completely unable to handle the negative repercussions of the decision he made despite that decision eventually working perfectly and helping to save the whole of the Alpha Quadrant from the Dominion.

So on one hand we have an inexperienced, untried, and untrustworthy kid who's given a chance because... destiny, who bullies his way to the top with no sign whatsoever that his actions bother him in the least; on the other we have a captain with years of tactical experience who's proven himself time and again, who struggles deeply with his actions despite them being directly responsible for turning the tide of the war.

To paraphrase, "Kirk got his shot because of cronyism. Sisko saved the Federation."

Pro tip: You're trying too hard.

 

[ichab]

Re: If Star Trek Beyond Is The Last Film Should They Start NuTNG or Re

For those that miss the old timeline you have 10 movies along with over 700 episodes available on DVD and digital media. That's far more content than most franchises have. Either get with the new timeline or stick to watching the old stuff.

 

[BillJ]

Re: If Star Trek Beyond Is The Last Film Should They Start NuTNG or Re

For those that miss the old timeline you have 10 movies along with over 700 episodes available on DVD and digital media. That's far more content than most franchises have. Either get with the new timeline or stick to watching the old stuff.

+1

Or they can realize that none of it is real and enjoy it, flaws and all.

 

[Nerys Myk]

Re: If Star Trek Beyond Is The Last Film Should They Start NuTNG or Re

Kirk was made First Officer by Pike. Pike made Spock the Captain.

At this point Kirk is a delinquent punk kid with a supposedly high IQ who's joined the academy and is three years in. He's also been placed on academic suspension for cheating. And this is the guy that Pike makes first officer, based on what? His father did something neat 20-some years ago. He also promotes Suspended Cadet Kirk the First Officer of the Federation flagship over every other cadet on the crew... to say nothing of all the other actual graduated officers on the ship. You know, the ones with years of hard work and actual experience at their jobs. Hence the "idiot mentor" line.

Pike sees something Kirk and is trying to make him into the man he should be. It's kind of the point of the film. It's a common movie trope. Kirk being a delinquent with a genius IQ drives the point home. He's also finishing a four year program in three years. Again driving the point.

When Spock becomes compromised, Kirk assumes command. And it's Spock Prime who comes up with the idea.

No. Spock Prime said, "Trust me, I am compromised." NuKirk then went ahead with that and proceeded to taunt nuSpock with his inability to love his own mother who he had just watched die in front of him as his home planet was being destroyed. Remember Spock's line about being a member of an endangered species? Hence the "emotionally manipulate a genocide survivor" line

Yes. Taunting Spock is Spock Prime's plan. Read the dialog I quoted

KIRK: How? Over your dead body?
SPOCK PRIME: Preferably not. However, there is Starfleet regulation six-one-nine. Six-one-nine states that any command officer who's emotionally compromised by the mission at hand, must resign said command.
KIRK: So, so you're saying that I have to emotionally compromise you guys?
SPOCK PRIME: Jim, I just lost my planet. I can tell you, I am emotionally compromised. What you must do is get me to show it.

It's Spock Prime's plan.

After a Kirk/Spock fight ( a TOS tradition as seen in This Side of Paradise and Amok Time) Spock is convinced.

No. After Kirk taunts Spock with his inability to love his own mother--after just having watched her die--Spock loses it and attacks Kirk. Once Spock calms down he admits he's emotionally compromised and gives up command.

Yes. It's Sarek who snaps Spock out of his rage. Read the dialog I quoted.

Kirk also taunts Spock in a similar fashion in "This Side of Paradise". Like I said. It's a thing.

 

[Quinton O'Connor]

Re: If Star Trek Beyond Is The Last Film Should They Start NuTNG or Re

For those that miss the old timeline you have 10 movies along with over 700 episodes available on DVD and digital media. That's far more content than most franchises have. Either get with the new timeline or stick to watching the old stuff.

+1

Or they can realize that none of it is real and enjoy it, flaws and all.

Either way. It's been six years since I found that I rather enjoy nuTrek; I'm long past caring that so many others unfortunately do not.

There's also a metric effton (that's an official designation) of novelverse stuff set in the 2380s and post-ENT and all sorts of other points. There is so much Primeverse.

 

[BillJ]

Re: If Star Trek Beyond Is The Last Film Should They Start NuTNG or Re

For those that miss the old timeline you have 10 movies along with over 700 episodes available on DVD and digital media. That's far more content than most franchises have. Either get with the new timeline or stick to watching the old stuff.

+1

Or they can realize that none of it is real and enjoy it, flaws and all.

Either way. It's been six years since I found that I rather enjoy nuTrek; I'm long past caring that so many others unfortunately do not.

I've made it to my 40's and decided life is too short to hate things. There are bad movies and, of course, bad Star Trek movies, but even during bad films I find myself enjoying the experience.

Star Trek isn't life and death and I finally figured out it wasn't worth treating it like it was.

 

[Quinton O'Connor]

Re: If Star Trek Beyond Is The Last Film Should They Start NuTNG or Re

Amen to that.

 

[eyeresist]

Re: If Star Trek Beyond Is The Last Film Should They Start NuTNG or Re

Trouble is, Abrams changed the target audience.

Roddenberry wanted to make a popular space opera. Abrams wanted to make a popular space opera. They both succeeded.


(I agree that the NuTrek films have some problems of plot and tone, but such problems are hardly unique to NuTrek and do not constitute any sort of blasphemy.)

 

[Ryan8bit]

Re: If Star Trek Beyond Is The Last Film Should They Start NuTNG or Re

And what vast knowledge and experience and years of hard work have lead all these people to have such faith in young nuKirk? The fact that nuKirk's father did something neat decades before (for Pike), and that Kirk Prime was an amazing Captain (for Spock Prime). So this character, nuKirk, did literally nothing to earn his position.

I think the biggest issues with these movies is that they are built a lot on the expectations of common Star Trek fans. They expect Kirk to be captain because that's what he was before, so the creators rush him into being captain. They expect Kirk and Spock to be friends because we knew them to be so, despite no real inkling of this. The writers want characters to get from A to E, without B, C, and D. And there are plenty of examples of this in just these two movies. They play upon what we knew because it's smart marketing, but it's not exactly breaking any new ground.

 

[fireproof78]

Re: If Star Trek Beyond Is The Last Film Should They Start NuTNG or Re

Trouble is, Abrams changed the target audience.

Roddenberry wanted to make a popular space opera. Abrams wanted to make a popular space opera. They both succeeded.


(I agree that the NuTrek films have some problems of plot and tone, but such problems are hardly unique to NuTrek and do not constitute any sort of blasphemy.)

Short, sweet and to the point. I think that it is well said.

 

[eyeresist]

Re: If Star Trek Beyond Is The Last Film Should They Start NuTNG or Re

^ Thanks!

I think the biggest issues with these movies is that they are built a lot on the expectations of common Star Trek fans. They expect Kirk to be captain because that's what he was before, so the creators rush him into being captain. They expect Kirk and Spock to be friends because we knew them to be so, despite no real inkling of this. The writers want characters to get from A to E, without B, C, and D.

I'd say this is a valid criticism. Reminds me of how studio told ENT producers they couldn't start with first season on Earth, building up to launch. "What the fans expect to see" is a valid argument, but so is "The journey there is half the fun."

I don't know if this has been polled before, but I wonder how many Trek fans would really be happy with NuTrek movies in which Kirk and Spock were only middle-rankers?

 

[drt]

Re: If Star Trek Beyond Is The Last Film Should They Start NuTNG or Re

Lol, "Trek fans" have been unhappy with all new Trek since the animated series.

 

[Disco]

Re: If Star Trek Beyond Is The Last Film Should They Start NuTNG or Re

+1

Or they can realize that none of it is real and enjoy it, flaws and all.

Either way. It's been six years since I found that I rather enjoy nuTrek; I'm long past caring that so many others unfortunately do not.

I've made it to my 40's and decided life is too short to hate things. There are bad movies and, of course, bad Star Trek movies, but even during bad films I find myself enjoying the experience.

Star Trek isn't life and death and I finally figured out it wasn't worth treating it like it was.

 

[martok2112]

Re: If Star Trek Beyond Is The Last Film Should They Start NuTNG or Re

For those that miss the old timeline you have 10 movies along with over 700 episodes available on DVD and digital media. That's far more content than most franchises have. Either get with the new timeline or stick to watching the old stuff.

+1

Or they can realize that none of it is real and enjoy it, flaws and all.

Either way. It's been six years since I found that I rather enjoy nuTrek; I'm long past caring that so many others unfortunately do not.

I've made it to my 40's and decided life is too short to hate things. There are bad movies and, of course, bad Star Trek movies, but even during bad films I find myself enjoying the experience.

Star Trek isn't life and death and I finally figured out it wasn't worth treating it like it was.

Roddenberry wanted to make a popular space opera. Abrams wanted to make a popular space opera. They both succeeded.


(I agree that the NuTrek films have some problems of plot and tone, but such problems are hardly unique to NuTrek and do not constitute any sort of blasphemy.)

+1 to everything said here.