If Star Trek and Star Wars fight, which side will win?

[Beyonder]

kv1at3485 said:The reason why warp drive is 'chart as you go' is because it's somewhat slower. There's time to react to new 'geography'.

I think this is wrong. At Warp, you are still in "real space" abeit surrounded in a subspace bubble, but still real space and senors can still monitor the surroundings, see planets coming up etc etc etc. You can see from the ship AND been seen.

In Hyperspace, you have entered another "space", like in B5, another dimenstion if you like. In that respect you need to know where your going to pop out so you dont exit Hyperspace inside something that could do serious harm. You cannot see into "real space" neither can anyone see you coming. To protect yourself from unwanted attack, you would deploy Interdictor ships to create a gravity well which will pull you from Hyperspace.

Warp is brilliant for surveying as you see everything as your going along, but its slow as hell, Hyperspace is hundreds of times faster since in Star Wars, the Empire or Old Republic spanned most of the known Galaxy and had moved on from surveying. Maybe they had something like Warp 25,000 years ago when the old Republic first came into existence

 

[UssHell]

I agree. Multiple Borg vessels would be a problem for the Death Star, and although I'm less sure about the Jem'Hadar having superiority against the shields (as the Feds and their allies were able to improve their shields since the Odyssey was destroyed), the Star Destroyers would definitely be vulnerable to suicide runs.

How so? Even if it is multiple borg ships, a borg cube is only 29 cubic Km, which = 3.07231683... Km in lengh. While this seems MASSIVE the first Death Star was over a few hundred Km in diameter, if the d was 400, then the volume of the first Death Star would have been 33493333.333... kilometers!!!! As volume of a sphere = 4/3 x 3.14 x r^3 in my opinon, 33493333.333 is quite bigger than 29. Now lets calculate fire power. (3 km x 3km) x 6 = 54km surface area, while 3.14 x 400^2 = 502400km surface area. The amount of avalable surface area = how much weapons you can have. Now, for the Borg to match Death Star, they would need about 9303.703704... borg cubes as 502400 / 54 = 9303.703...
Thats only the first Death Star, the second one is even more massive, with a diameter of over 900Km, we will use 920Km d as our estamate. So: 4/3 x 3.14 x 460^3 = 407513386.7Km cubed. As for fire power, it is about 2657696km squared, now 2657696 / 54 = 49216.59259 Borg shps to match the fire power. And don't give me that exhaust vent crap... Borg cubes are way to big to get even close to the vents, as to are the smallest federation shuttles. Anyhow, the heat vent was fixed on death star 2

The second Death Star corrected several flaws of the original design. The two-meter exhaust vent that doomed the first station was replaced with millions of millimeter heat-dissipating ducts, each designed to seal if excess energy was detected. The second station also boasted far more turbolaser batteries with redesigned targeting systems, allowing them to target starfighters more easily. The greatest concentration of turbolasers was located near the Emperor's throne tower, while the rest were spread across the surface city blocks and sector command centers.

- http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Death_Star

Oh yea by the way, the Borg can only have one side of their ship pointed at Death Star, thanks to the cube confegeration, so you can multiply all my Borg ships needed by six, or at least four, as the borg can't point every single side of its cube to fire at the Death Star.

But then again, ill be fair and say that Borg adaptions can help, so do the above only if you want to.

But still, 58520.29629 Borg cubes just to match the two Death Stars seems quite alot doesn't it?... Does the Borg even have that much Cubes?...

But then that is only if Borg and Death Star weapons are the same gigatons... so take or give a few hundred Borg cubes

 

[Unicron]

Surface area determines the number of weapons, but that's meaningless unless we're assuming the weapons on both sides can at least harm each other. If it turned out that turbolasers don't do much against Borg armor and shields, it wouldn't really matter whether the DSes had more of them. There's also the whole adaptation issue, which could conceivable nullify any weapons advantage the Empire has except the superlaser.

Besides, the Borg have transwarp. It's perhaps the closest FTL system to what hyperdrive seems to do in SW, so they can call in ships from anywhere. And they have thousands, maybe even millions of ships in the Delta Quadrant alone.

So yeah, even if it took a lot of ships to combat the Death Stars, I think that would be far less of a problem for the Borg than it would be for most of the other Trek powers. You are right that the cubes can only fire from one side at a time, but the same is true of the Death Star. It's a sphere. And unlike the Borg vessels, it is so massive that it has very limited maneuverability at sublight.

 

[UssHell]

^ If Federation phasers that don't really have over a few GW firepower can damage a Cube quite badly... I wonder what Star Wars ships can do when there lasers with charges up to a few million GW. And as you said... the adaptions only nullify the weapons, NOT dissapate them compleatly. So at worst... its still a few thousand GW?

So I think that the 2 Death Stars can take on the entire Borg... Send then to Unimatrix one and kill the queen ^_^

Also true it is a sphere, but the Borg ships are gonna surround it to attack it ^_^, so pretty much every part of the shere is gonna have action

Now all we need to argue about is the other ships... xD

 

[sttngfan1701d]

What does size have to do with firepower? The DS doesn't have weapons over its entire surface, and probably has to be huge to generate a lot of power, but just because the Borg cube is smaller doesn't mean it couldn't kill a DS easily.

And all that technobabble you spewed totally glazed over the whole adaptation thing. So the adapting nullifies the Death Star's weapons. It would still conceivably take a load of time to fire that big laser of theirs again, and in that time the Borg cutting beam had made the DS look like a wormy apple. They would have adapted to the weapons, analyzed the DS's systems, pinpointed the weakness and exploited it. I'd say, 3 cubes would do it.

 

[UssHell]

^ I wasn't talking about the big laser that blasts planets, 24 small laser turrents alone has fire power of over 300 million GW... more than a match for 3 poor cubes... and if we assumed that there was 1 turrent per every 10 meters... there would be about 265 769 600 small laser guns on Death Star 2 and f we replaced half with heavy guns... its bye bye Borg
http://www.stardestroyer.net/Empire/Essays/FiveMinutes.html
Yes... about less than 2 secs to reload the light guns

*cough* 3 borg cubes that isn't even 0.000021348% of the volume of the Death Star would be able to kill it. Soooooo would, and yes... the Death Star is accually covered from head to toe with weapons.

And to give you a idea of how big Death Star 2 is... about 14 052 185.75 Borg Cubes can fit inside of it... 14 million cubes... The Borg cutting beam can't even remove 1% of its insides... and how much times do I have to say it?! BORG SHIELD ONLY REDUCES THE DAMAGE DONE TO THE ITS SHIELDS, NOT COMLEATLY ABSORBING THE ENERGY!!!!

 

[sttngfan1701d]

BORG SHIELD ONLY REDUCES THE DAMAGE DONE TO THE ITS SHIELDS, NOT COMLEATLY ABSORBING THE ENERGY!!!!

Until they adapt, yes. Then the weapons have no effect.

and if we assumed that there was 1 turrent per every 10 meters... there would be about 265 769 600 small laser guns on Death Star 2 and f we replaced half with heavy guns... its bye bye Borg

And why would we assume this? Just because the Death Star is big? And you link to a site which, as I said upthread, is highly suspect. That guy postulates that the Slave One could take down the Enterprise-D. I don't believe that for a millisecond. That's just ridiculous.

 

[Unicron]

UssHell said:
^ If Federation phasers that don't really have over a few GW firepower can damage a Cube quite badly... I wonder what Star Wars ships can do when there lasers with charges up to a few million GW. And as you said... the adaptions only nullify the weapons, NOT dissapate them compleatly. So at worst... its still a few thousand GW?

So I think that the 2 Death Stars can take on the entire Borg... Send then to Unimatrix one and kill the queen ^_^

Also true it is a sphere, but the Borg ships are gonna surround it to attack it ^_^, so pretty much every part of the shere is gonna have action

Now all we need to argue about is the other ships... xD

Yes, but the Borg can surround the DS on all sides. That means they have to fight weapons in every arc, but they have the advantage of mobility as I said above. Borg ships attacking the northern hemisphere can change their arcs by rotating their ships, thus hitting one area with all of their weapons. The NH weapon emplacements cannot do that. Besides, how do you know that the Borg ships are not covered head to toe with weapons as well?

As far as the second DS is concerned, I'm not sure it's really relevant. Not if you're going by the movie version, which was incomplete. If you're assuming a fully finished DS II, then it's an issue.

Again, physical size and number of weapons is irrelevant unless we know what those weapons do. And even if SW weapons seem to use more GW than their Trek counterparts, that does not automatically mean they are better.

sttngfan1701d said:
That guy postulates that the Slave One could take down the Enterprise-D. I don't believe that for a millisecond. That's just ridiculous.

And this is why I totally ignore Stardestroyer.net.

 

[McAvoy]

UssHell said:
^ I wasn't talking about the big laser that blasts planets, 24 small laser turrents alone has fire power of over 300 million GW... more than a match for 3 poor cubes... and if we assumed that there was 1 turrent per every 10 meters... there would be about 265 769 600 small laser guns on Death Star 2 and f we replaced half with heavy guns... its bye bye Borg
http://www.stardestroyer.net/Empire/Essays/FiveMinutes.html
Yes... about less than 2 secs to reload the light guns

*cough* 3 borg cubes that isn't even 0.000021348% of the volume of the Death Star would be able to kill it. Soooooo would, and yes... the Death Star is accually covered from head to toe with weapons.

And to give you a idea of how big Death Star 2 is... about 14 052 185.75 Borg Cubes can fit inside of it... 14 million cubes... The Borg cutting beam can't even remove 1% of its insides... and how much times do I have to say it?! BORG SHIELD ONLY REDUCES THE DAMAGE DONE TO THE ITS SHIELDS, NOT COMLEATLY ABSORBING THE ENERGY!!!!

Remember something, the Death Star may be massive, and Borg Cubes tiny in comparison. But what really matters is the weapons, number of them, how powerful they are, and so forth. Volume on a ship or whatever has nothing against a ship that can take you out in less than a split second or it takes several hours.

In either case, spewing volume figures makes no sense.

 

[UssHell]

Until they adapt, yes. Then the weapons have no effect.

Doesn't matter even IF the Borg adapted to the weapons, there shields would still take damage. A perfect example was the First Contact encounter. A Borg cube, which has already adapted to plenty of Federation fire in any case still taken massive damage.
So: conclusion: Borg shields, even when adapted, will still take damage from a weapon, just numbs the blast by a inversed frequency of the weapon, taking alot less damage, but still damage never the less.
I mean just because its adapted, weapons don't have any effect? I mean you can fire 18th century muskets at a Borg cube, and if you have enough firing, as in ALOT, you can take the Borg shields offline

Yes, but the Borg can surround the DS on all sides. That means they have to fight weapons in every arc, but they have the advantage of mobility as I said above. Borg ships attacking the northern hemisphere can change their arcs by rotating their ships, thus hitting one area with all of their weapons. The NH weapon emplacements cannot do that. Besides, how do you know that the Borg ships are not covered head to toe with weapons as well?

Well, the Borg ship hitting one area can't stay in that area to hit for a long time, as it will also have to dodge weapon fire from the DS.
I don't know that the Borg Cube isn't covered head to toe with weapons, but from what we seen in First Contact, the Borg cube couldn't even match the Firepower of ~40 Federation ships. If it really had all those weapons on the outside, it sure would have diced up the Federation way sooner. So its not really hard evidence, but i would say no more than 50 phasers, 50 pulse phasers, 5 tractors, and 2 cutting beams on each side.

And who says only Death Stars weapons need alot of reloading? I mean the Borg had that cutting beam tech that destroys star ships in like 5 secs... if that beam reloaded every minute even, the battle of First Contact would have ended in less than 10 mins

 

[Unicron]

The Feds had an advantage in FC because they had fought the Borg before and understood how to get around the adaptation, at least to some degree. That was not true when the Borg were first encountered (or the Dominion for that matter), so it would only be true if the Imps had fought the Collective before. We are assuming they haven't, for purposes of this discussion. Plus, a lone cube easily annihilated 39 ships in BOBW. We barely ever saw Borg ships use multiple weapons at once, but that doesn't mean they're not there.

 

[UssHell]

We barely ever saw Borg ships use multiple weapons at once, but that doesn't mean they're not there.

Thats because that the special effects department are way to lazy to go more than 2 at a time

 

[Unicron]

Yeah, and the Borg always attack with only one ship, so the heroes don't get whupped. There is another factor that hasn't come up yet: the Borg have regenerative shields and armor, which is another advantage the Empire doesn't have.

 

[UssHell]

^from memory alpha -

The basic principle of regenerative shielding is to quickly analyze an attacking weapon's frequency and then modulate shield freqency to increase damage mitigation without depleting shield energy.

to increase damage mitigation: thus shields still take damage, and if the weapon was strong enough, the shields would be usless

 

[Unicron]

Yeah, but it's not just the shields. It's the hull armor too, as we saw back in "Q Who?" So you have two different regenerative systems. If the shields fail, the armor is adaptive.

 

[sttngfan1701d]

And what about the tactical cubes we saw on Voyager?

 

[jolau]

Also, didn't the Borg send multiple ships after Species 8472? I think three were sent in one episode.

Also, the Borg have the ability to transport drones into the Death Star, and the drones can begin assimilating the Death Star's crew and go from there.

I think muskets once adapted would be useless against the Borg.

 

[UssHell]

Assimilating Death Star's crew will be something in question: one: most storm tropers wear that armor thing; and we have no way to tell how strong that armor is... perhaps Borg assimulation tubes can't even penetrate the armor, anyways just a guess. Anyhow, the Borg can't assimulate the Jedi: as the Jedi don't use partical weapons but light sabers, anyhow, the Borg are to slow.
Also, just on the sheer size of the DS and the personnal it requires to run, it would probably take days, maybe weeks perhaps a month for a succsessful assimulation.
Anyhow, just because Star Wars has limited shields, that doesn't mean they don't have shields, true the Borg can beam though shields, but we have no way of knowing if SW shields are stronger vs. Borg intrusions.

 

[Unicron]

Well, considering how easily they die from one hit, it's probably not that strong...

 

[drasche]

I see everyone forgot to mention Soran's trilithium weapon, which can destroy an entire star system.