If Ship In A Bottle Had Been a Barclay Program

[Mojochi]

One of the best moments, in a very entertaining episode, is the last line. Just when you figure the ordeal is finally over, Barclay says "Computer... End program"

That end always puts a wry smile on my face, because who better to say it than the guy who'd been known to do that very thing, create programs with his real life comrades? So not only do you get the rub of life possibly being a simulation, like Picard said just prior, you also get a bit of a tease, because with this character that outcome is also just as possible.

It always makes me think. Despite being an enjoyable episode, it otherwise stretches believability to the breaking point. The ship's captain, a holodeck prodigy & an android being so successfully duped by a 19th century holodeck character, (Even a genius one) into thinking holodeck creations were their real ship & crew, is pretty thin. There's like a hundred ways that should be plain impossible.

So I have to wonder... Might the episode have worked better, or been more believable, if Barclay's final line was followed by a dissolve into Barclay standing on the blank holodeck? So then, apart from fixing everything otherwise unbelievable about the episode, the crux of the episode shifts to being about Barclay taking pity on Moriarty, after discovering him, & his aberrant uniqueness, & deciding to give him his ultimate wish, a story wherein he could outwit the crew that made him, & free himself. Somehow, I think the episode might actually have been even better had they'd done that.

Sure, that would make it an episode that's not about the real crew, & it kind of makes a sad statement about Barclay himself, in that he would've reverted into recreating his real life as a holodeck program yet again, but I think that in this one forgivable case, his ability to do so, is the perfect solution for the Moriarty problem. Who better to pull that off? Besides, it would've been one hell of a zinger, that made you rethink everything you'd just seen

Just a thought

 

[JesterFace]

The ship's captain, a holodeck prodigy & an android being so successfully duped by a 19th century holodeck character, (Even a genius one) into thinking holodeck creations were their real ship & crew, is pretty thin. There's like a hundred ways that should be plain impossible.

I really like this episode, so I hope my question won't spoil it for me... but could you tell us few of those reasons why you think it would be impossible for Moriarty to fool Picard and Data thinking holodeck is reality.

Now that I think about it, few things pop into my head, what are your "impossible-factors"?

 

[woodstock]

It would have taken some reworking of the rest of the story, but that would be a pretty cool ending.

 

[Mojochi]

I really like this episode, so I hope my question won't spoil it for me... but could you tell us few of those reasons why you think it would be impossible for Moriarty to fool Picard and Data thinking holodeck is reality.

Now that I think about it, few things pop into my head, what are your "impossible-factors"?

Data specifically has perceptibility issues that go beyond both Picard & Barclay's human perception. In Inheritance, we literally see him ascertain a being as being artificial by noticing it's blinking pattern, & performance characteristics. I'd have to assume the Enterprise computer is no better at imitating the characteristics of life as Soong was, so holodecks must in some way also employ programming to imitate people, in this case, the very friends & crew they know intimately. Data can spot programming.

Apart from Data, I can believe it might be possible for a truly brilliant person to fool humans into not realizing holodeck people are fake, but that he fools them into believing their friends & crew are fake, in a very short time frame, is really thin. The level of detailed instruction would be almost impossible to achieve at all, to convince Picard that Riker & Troi & Beverly were all real. Moriarty would have to know them all just as intimately as Picard, which we know he doesn't. Think of how detailed Geordi had to be to get the ship's computer to believably recreate Leah Brahms, & even then there were discrepancies. Moriarty would have to have done that with every one of the command crew, & it would be harder to fool Picard, because he actually knows these people

How long did Picard, Barclay, & Data go back to their daily mission duties amongst the crew, before Data only realized the fabrication, due to a holodeck glitch? (The left handed thing) Daily duties that would include studying the converging stars. So here's another aspect of the holodeck program that would involve outstanding programming to recreate, the specifics of their mission, that they went back to, before realizing they were in a recreation.

So there's 3 reasons its weak as a concept. Data can see programming patterns as it relates to imitating living people. These people aren't just holodeck characters of strangers, but of close friends, that Moriarty, & the ship's computer don't know as well, & this mission is far too scientific in nature for a 19th century holographic man (even a brilliant one) to understand well enough to simulate on such short notice. Hell, until he wandered onto 10-Forward, he didn't even know they were in space, & the fakery was already in motion (Unless we assume he was feigning ignorance about his 24th century knowledge)

I still like this episode. Everyone is really entertaining in it, but if I'm being scrutinizing critical, the concept itself is hard to swallow in hindsight

 

[JesterFace]

I still like this episode. Everyone is really entertaining in it, but if I'm being scrutinizing critical, the concept itself is hard to swallow in hindsight

I like this episode, so I like to fanfic all the "loopholes" you mentioned with my own theories. One thing could be that the episode where Data meets his "robotmommy" isn't that great, I don't usually watch it at all, so that takes care of Data's ability to detect artificial life.

 

[Tenacity]

The ship's captain, a holodeck prodigy & an android being so successfully duped by a 19th century holodeck character

Geordi did say to create a holo character who could beat Data. And remember, Moriarty is a toy of the ship's main computer, not somehow a 18th century individual.

 

[Mojochi]

Geordi did say to create a holo character who could beat Data. And remember, Moriarty is a toy of the ship's main computer, not somehow a 18th century individual.

I just state the character's origin. He originates in the 19th century, but even if we accept that he somehow possesses an intellect comparable to Data, I still doubt he could craft holodeck characters of Picard's real crew, that are believable enough to fool them, especially Data, who should be able to tell a holodeck creation from a living being in countless ways. Hell, I doubt Data could create holodeck characters of Picard's crew, that could fool them, & neither of them could do it in the time frame Moriarty did

I honestly don't harp on it much though, because it is a good episode, that's only flaw is straining believability. Lord knows it ain't the only time they ever did that. That really wasn't the purpose of the thread anyhow. Mostly I was musing about it being a better episode if they'd allowed it to all be a holodeck simulation, programmed by Barclay

I like this episode, so I like to fanfic all the "loopholes" you mentioned with my own theories. One thing could be that the episode where Data meets his "robotmommy" isn't that great, I don't usually watch it at all, so that takes care of Data's ability to detect artificial life.

lol that you don't like it or watch it doesn't mean it didn't happen & I happen to like that episode hahaha

 

[JesterFace]

@Mojochi - If all else fails, the easiest way to explain weird things that happen without explanation, the answer can be: Q! =)

 

[Mojochi]

@Mojochi - If all else fails, the easiest way to explain weird things that happen without explanation, the answer can be: Q! =)

I've done that before

 

[Tenacity]

Hell, I doubt Data could create holodeck characters of Picard's crew

Barkley did.

 

[Jedman67]

Moriarty instructed the computer to create a simulation of the ship that could fool even Data (well there's no dialog. But that's the only way it makes sense, considering the original use of Moriarty in S2).
So Moriarty is controlling the computer's simulation, rather than himself. And the computer has ample data available to mimic the crew.
The 'individual' Moriarty was 'smart' enough to give the computer good enough instructions to carry out his elaborate hoax.

 

[Mojochi]

Barkley did.

That could fool them, was what I was saying. Nothing about Barkley's holodeck creations were believable enough to fool the real people into thinking they were real. They weren't even designed for that purpose

I think maybe he could pull it off, if he applied himself to the task, but Data? heck... Data couldn't even get Riker's hair right in Unification lol. He'd certainly not be up to the task of recreating emotional beings, that could pass for the real person

Moriarty instructed the computer to create a simulation of the ship that could fool even Data

That's the impression we're given, yes, & I'm ok with it, but it's a little thin. We've been shown on Star Trek how impossibly hard it is to recreate a real person, in an exact enough way as to be indistinguishable. Geordi tried it, & that was quite an awkward failure, when he met the real person. In Future Imperfect, Riker blew a whole ruse out of the water, when it didn't add up, & that recreation was drawn from his own mind

I've always felt that the show WANTED us to believe there was no real way to substitute a holodeck recreation for a real person. It would never be exact enough to fool anyone. It took a genius like Soong & his synaptic scanning process to pull off an artificial recreation of a real person

And the computer has ample data available to mimic the crew.

Sure, but Moriarty hasn't ample knowledge of the ship, the mission, nor the crew, to be able to KNOW if they ARE indistinguishable. That level of involvement in the process would be necessary to fool a real person, like Picard. Someone who knows these people as well as their comrades do, is the only person who might be able to simulate it well enough. It's got nothing to do with how smart Moriarty is. It's about 1st hand experience

Which is why I kind of think the episode works better, if the whole thing gets revealed as a Barclay holodeck program at the end. It eliminates the aspect of anyone real having to have been fooled, & what more, it would be Barclay who'd programmed it. If anyone could make believable recreations, it's probably him. His were mighty close in some of those other programs we saw

But that Moriarty could pull it off on a limited time frame, & with very little 1st hand knowledge of the people he was recreating, is a pretty hard sell imho. The computer would have to sift through all the crew's personal logs, & analyze behavior patterns, etc... & while I figure it might be possible to do it, with the info on hand, I really don't see Moriarty being the guy who could accomplish it. He just doesn't know them well enough to know if it was right

 

[Jedman67]

Imagine you put together a code to scrape data from google searches.
That's what moriarty did - he created the parameters of the program to mimic the crew of the real ship, with the key test to fool Data. Then he turned the computer loose and let it run the show.

If you think through it hard enough, it all falls to pieces anyway, so just enjoy it!

 

[woodstock]

I have difficulties with holodecks in general. Any info on their actual size? It is hard to imagine that Picard could be in his ready room, Data on the bridge and Barclay in engineering and them not be aware of their actual proximity to each other even through simulated bulkheads and decks. Trying to move an entire village miles and days through changing terrain? They would have to realize at some point they are literally just walking in circles. I remember one episode where Picard was riding a horse at a gallop. How could you get a horse up to that speed in the space available before hitting a wall?

 

[Jedman67]

The tl;dr version is "magic"
The better answer is that holodecks are fairly large rooms, and the holotechnology is capable of simulating distance and separation. Your horse is riding a vritual "treadmill" in order to get up to a good gallup, but it's actually still in the same place.
Another possibility is that holodecks are even larger than displayed; and use the holographic tech to give the appearance of a smaller room for entrance and egress, but the Holographic VR chamber is actually huge.

 

[Mojochi]

If you think through it hard enough, it all falls to pieces anyway, so just enjoy it!

Oh, & I do. Honestly, that's not really what this thread is about. I really like this episode & there's been plenty worse unbelievable things in Star Trek, but this one little aspect does flirt pretty well with being unbelievable lol

Imagine you put together a code to scrape data from google searches.
That's what moriarty did - he created the parameters of the program to mimic the crew of the real ship, with the key test to fool Data. Then he turned the computer loose and let it run the show.

And that's the only way we can even buy this as plausible. Moriarty worded things in just the right way as to make the ship's computer do all the leg work in recreating reasonable enough facsimiles. The issue is, I don't think the computer can do that on its own. It's a computer. It computes. With Leah, it didn't even know what Geordi was getting at, until he spelled it out with specific records for it to access. I figure if someone made a goal of it, it's not impossible, but the computer must be directed exceptionally well, by persons who know what to ask for, as well as know who these people are, well enough that it might fool someone they are close to. The idea isn't unbelievable. The idea that it happened this way kind of is