If Data had lost the Measure of a Man trial, would he have fled?
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doubleohfive
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Ironically enough, Starfleet comes charging in a year later wanting the goods when Data built Lal, also.
Indeed, never understood their stance there either but it also lead to a great episode where Picard stands up and advocates for Data's (and Lal's) rights.
But Starfleet's (or that one particular Admiral's) position seemed rather weak, on shaky ground and basically an affront to what Starfleet -and the Federation- is supposed to stand for.
But Starfleet's (or that one particular Admiral's) position seemed rather weak, on shaky ground and basically an affront to what Starfleet -and the Federation- is supposed to stand for.
doubleohfive
Fleet Admiral
It would have been really interesting to find out at the end of the episode that it was all Starfleet red tape political bullshit reasoning behind their attempt to salvage Data. Like, they knew about the Borg already and wanted to build a ready-made army or something like that, thus proving Picard's point for him.
As it is though, the episode has a great point: Just because Data is a machine (by conventional standards) it does not necessarily follow that he is "property."
When you equate a person to property, you're saying they're slaves. That's the point Guinan makes, and that's the crux of Picard's argument - Data may be a machine, but he's not a slave, and what Starfleet was doing (or attempting to do) was akin to creating another slave race.
As it is though, the episode has a great point: Just because Data is a machine (by conventional standards) it does not necessarily follow that he is "property."
When you equate a person to property, you're saying they're slaves. That's the point Guinan makes, and that's the crux of Picard's argument - Data may be a machine, but he's not a slave, and what Starfleet was doing (or attempting to do) was akin to creating another slave race.
Exactly, it's an argument Gunian made well (and it's all more powerful coming from a black woman) but it's surprising this is something that Picard hadn't realized himself.
Measure of Man and Offspring are both great episodes, hell pretty much every episode focusing on Data is great. But, as noted, at the same time the arguments Starfleet tries to make don't hold to the scrutiny of their primary charter/mission and how they treat Data. As said, if Data had the choice of entering Starfleet in the first place and choosing his own career path then certainly he'd have the "choice" to not get transfered against his will and to submit to a procedure that could end his life.
Measure of Man and Offspring are both great episodes, hell pretty much every episode focusing on Data is great. But, as noted, at the same time the arguments Starfleet tries to make don't hold to the scrutiny of their primary charter/mission and how they treat Data. As said, if Data had the choice of entering Starfleet in the first place and choosing his own career path then certainly he'd have the "choice" to not get transfered against his will and to submit to a procedure that could end his life.
Well I can kinda see Starfleet's point, in that if Data really WAS just an automaton with no ability to grow or develop or reason, then he would just be another machine or tool that they could do with as they wished.
But the fact he CLEARLY demonstrated a higher level of intelligence and sentience should have instantly made that idea a non-starter. At the very least, you'd think they'd want to investigate the possibility first before just deciding out of the blue that he was their property.
The original script for "The Offspring" contains some unused dialogue which gives Admiral Haftel a bit more credibility on his desire to relocate Lal. He uses the phrase "effective isolation" in the finished ep, but this is expanded in the script as an analogy to how Daystrom preferred to be "isolated" while he developed the M-5 and its unique components, and how that contributed to the debacle suffered by the Enterprise and the other test ships. Haftel is concerned that, in a worst case scenario, there is no reason why Lal couldn't develop programming that is potentially dangerous or unstable, which she ultimately does in a different form.
doubleohfive
Fleet Admiral
Intriguing. What's your source for that?
This very handy website, which has a lot of TNG and Trek scripts. Some of them, as with "The Offspring", appear to contain dialogue and other slight differences that don't appear in the finished versions. "Loud As A Whisper" is another interesting example, as Geordi has a lot of interaction with Riva over a shared disability. Many of his lines became Troi's in the aired version, and his interpreters are not killed dramatically (unlike the final version, the attack on Riva was deliberate). They rely on an implant to interpret Riva's thoughts and translate them, and this implant is instead damaged, leaving them unable to fulfill their role and Riva isolated.
Edit: Here are the unused lines, which occur during Haftel's conversation with Picard after he first comes on board.
Edit: Here are the unused lines, which occur during Haftel's conversation with Picard after he first comes on board.
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doubleohfive
Fleet Admiral
Holy shit. THat site IS awesome. Thanks for the link. I've got the TOS bible, and the unpublished Voyager Tech manual that was used internally, but this is just AWESOME.
No problem. 
It was posted here a while back, and I bookmarked it. I like reading scripts and such, but I was surprised to see in a few cases that the ones posted had significant differences (sometimes better ones) with the aired versions. There's also a bit of extended dialogue when Data is explaining how he copied his neural designs into Lal's brain, which follows the conversation in Picard's ready room. Haftel questions whether Data could be considered an "imperfect" teacher given how much he is still learning about humanity, and whether Lal might therefore chose to emulate what he tells her instead of developing her own instincts. Picard counters by asking how many researchers on Haftel's staff are androids.
It was posted here a while back, and I bookmarked it. I like reading scripts and such, but I was surprised to see in a few cases that the ones posted had significant differences (sometimes better ones) with the aired versions. There's also a bit of extended dialogue when Data is explaining how he copied his neural designs into Lal's brain, which follows the conversation in Picard's ready room. Haftel questions whether Data could be considered an "imperfect" teacher given how much he is still learning about humanity, and whether Lal might therefore chose to emulate what he tells her instead of developing her own instincts. Picard counters by asking how many researchers on Haftel's staff are androids.
LaForge is not likely to bend or break orders, that's not his style. Picard does it all the time.
To save a friend, he might.
I'm pretty sure he would escape, he's faster, stronger, and samrter than almost anyone in Starfleet. I'm sure Geordi would have helped by leaving a shuttle or Runabout - if they existed at the time - out and fueled and ready to go. Picard would have covered for Geordi by calling him to the bridge leaving the shuttle/Runabout unguarded, and possibly even have Geordi run a full diagnostic on the ships sensors, tractor beam and warp drive preventing Enterprise from being able to stop Data and giving him a good head start.
Data would only have to worry about the Romulan/Klingon/Cardassian and other races out looking for this Android to try to copy him.
Data would only have to worry about the Romulan/Klingon/Cardassian and other races out looking for this Android to try to copy him.
Just re-watching the "LaForge eyes" conversation here: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-htVPOSBYfs and noticed that Data specifically says: "I WILL NOT SUBMIT TO THE PROCEDURE, SIR." (0:46).
That to me suggests that Data would in fact just flee had he lost the trial.
That to me suggests that Data would in fact just flee had he lost the trial.
Yes, I say, the Enterprise crew would have swarmed around Data to help protect his interests, and he would have, with their help, fled to a safer location.
Not necessarily, I own a cat who I paid nothing for, he is my property. I am legally responsible for him, and his actions.
Not exactly, courts have ruled that corporations have rights and responsibilities similar to those of a natural person. But they can't legally do everything a natural person can, it doesn't go that far, they are a "legal person."
And maybe that's what was going on in the episode.
In the eyes of the Federation and Starfleet, Data might already not have been a "natural person," but he could have held the status of a "legal person." Section Fifteen of the Canadian Charter of Rights and Freedoms (that's Canada's equal rights guarantee) says it only applies to natural persons. It specifically uses that term.
So if Data already did not enjoy the full "Human" rights protections under the law that say Picard did. What Maddox would have accomplished though the courts, would have been to strip Data of the lesser protections of being a legal person.
As the JAG (semi) put it, Data would have had all the legal protections of a toaster.
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