If Data had lost the Measure of a Man trial, would he have fled?

[nnnnnnn]

Suppose Data had lost the trial (or hearing) in Measure of a Man.

Would he have fled?

And if so, would Picard have helped him, for instance by securing a free shuttle for him to use?

If Data is property, how can he be bound by Starfleet rules anyway, so he might have felt it was the right thing to do to flee.

And by the way this early episode really shows there are serious problems with the Starfleet high command.

 

[Trekker4747]

I never fully understood Starfleet's stance in this episode. If Data has/had the right to choose to enter Starfleet and had to go through the academy and all of the procedures to become an officer and then work his way up the ranks by working posts on ships then surely he has as much "right" to chose what to do with his career as anyone else. This is a fantastic episode but Starfleet's position made no sense and I don't feel Riker did a good job of showing how Data was property of Starfleet and didn't have a right to chose, all he did was prove that Data had incredible strength, detachable limbs and could be turned off. Well, that could apply to many species the Federation encounters.

 

[ngc7293]

Suppose Data had lost the trial (or hearing) in Measure of a Man.

Would he have fled?

And if so, would Picard have helped him, for instance by securing a free shuttle for him to use?

If Data is property, how can he be bound by Starfleet rules anyway, so he might have felt it was the right thing to do to flee.

And by the way this early episode really shows there are serious problems with the Starfleet high command.

Picard wouldn't have tried to help Data flee. It is more likely that LaForge would have tried to since they were 'friends'.
It is also likely that Data would have said no and reported to be dismantled or what ever the episode said. Think of Data as a mechanical Vulcan. You said 'felt', Data has no feelings at this time.

My thought about the command structure is that no one knows how to deal properly with an Android in a command position. There was that episode with those robots that were considered sentient at some point and people had trouble with that. I don't know where along the time line that is. It is clear that living machines is a hard idea to swallow for Star Fleet

 

[The Castellan]

I never fully understood Starfleet's stance in this episode. If Data has/had the right to choose to enter Starfleet and had to go through the academy and all of the procedures to become an officer and then work his way up the ranks by working posts on ships then surely he has as much "right" to chose what to do with his career as anyone else. This is a fantastic episode but Starfleet's position made no sense and I don't feel Riker did a good job of showing how Data was property of Starfleet and didn't have a right to chose, all he did was prove that Data had incredible strength, detachable limbs and could be turned off. Well, that could apply to many species the Federation encounters.

Cause a few people that wanted Data probably used some legal technicality to get this whole issue going, and some of them probably licked their lips at the idea of having obedient androids to serve them....since it seems most of the tops of the Starfleet totem pole were pricks. Also, Riker was doing this under protest, he was pretty much held at gun point....if he went with it, Data could lose his freedom and and life, if he refused, Data automatically lost his freedom and life. I think Riker pretty much did the minimum requirements and purposely half-assed it so that Picard could have a better chance, without looking like he was doing so. Plus Riker did not have that much experience in politics, mind you.

As for Data fleeing, I would not blame him at all, and could see Geordie doing anything to help hm escape, and Picard using some legal loopholes to justify helping the escape, or in the very least not doing anything to prevent said escape.

Imagine what would happen if this was happening to Lore. We'd see a scene similar to the Terminator slaughtering those cops, just with phasers and probably his bare hands, and smiling while doing so.

 

[SchwEnt]

I also felt there was a bit of backpedaling concerning Star Fleet's stance on Data, just to set up the issue for the eps.

He was already recognized as a sentient being, being an Academy graduate and an officer earning rank and third in command of the Enterprise. Wouldn't Data have to have been recognized as an individual, or does Star Fleet put mechanized property in command of their flagship of 1000+ souls? Does the Academy allow machines to apply then grant them degrees upon graduation?

It seems Data's status as an individual had already been decided, but they had to fudge a little to get the conflict going in the eps. But I'll buy it, it was worth it for a really great eps.

 

[Alrik]

Data wouldn't have needed anyones help taking his leave. As soon as Phillipa ruled that Data was a toaster, Data could have just dubbed her voice, locked the Starbase down, used Picard's voice to do the same to the Enterprise, and off he goes. Its not like Picard and Enterprise would really give that serious of a chase.

 

[The Librarian]

I think that he would have fled and his friends would have helped him, but there would be no need to do so immediately. The ruling of a single Starbase JAG officer is hardly the end of the line. Data would appeal to a higher court, all the way to the UFP Supreme Court if necessary, and frankly given the almost facial nature of the entire trial its hard to see him losing. I mean, seriously - he has to defend whether or not he's a sapient being without the benefit of trained legal counsel? That alone is enough to get any decision against him thrown out, especially since Maddox clearly staged this entire setup so that Data wouldn't have access to normal legal resources like he would at any other starbase or planet.

 

[sevenstars]

Starfleet's position made no sense

You said it.

Suppose Data had lost the trial (or hearing) in Measure of a Man.

Then corporations would be people.

 

[Forbin]

Pretty sure this was covered in the episode when Data said he would resign if the ruling went against him. Once he was no longer in Starfleet, Starfleet had no right to order him to do anything.

 

[Sandoval]

Data on the lam?

Imagine the wacky adventures?



"In 2365 a Soong-type android was sent to a cybernetics laboratory by a Starfleet court for a crime he didn't commit. This android promptly escaped from a maximum security starbase to the Federation underground. Today, still wanted by Starfleet, he survives as a soldier of fortune. If you have a problem, if no one else can help, and if you can find him, maybe you can hire (the former) Lieutenant Commander Data."



I was trying to be ironic but actually it sounds more exciting than I thought it would.

 

[davejames]

Pretty sure this was covered in the episode when Data said he would resign if the ruling went against him. Once he was no longer in Starfleet, Starfleet had no right to order him to do anything.

That actually would have been kind of interesting to see. If the ruling actually went against Data, and we had a small arc where we followed Data as just a regular civilian on the ship (perhaps having a consulting role during certain missions).

Or maybe he would even leave the ship for awhile, and go about exploring the galaxy on his own.

 

[The Castellan]

Starfleet's position made no sense

You said it.

Suppose Data had lost the trial (or hearing) in Measure of a Man.

Then corporations would be people.

The government views corporations as living things, already.

 

[The Castellan]

Data on the lam?

Imagine the wacky adventures?



"In 2365 a Soong-type android was sent to a cybernetics laboratory by a Starfleet court for a crime he didn't commit. This android promptly escaped from a maximum security starbase to the Federation underground. Today, still wanted by Starfleet, he survives as a soldier of fortune. If you have a problem, if no one else can help, and if you can find him, maybe you can hire (the former) Lieutenant Commander Data."



I was trying to be ironic but actually it sounds more exciting than I thought it would.

Does this mean he'd be flying around an in ugly black ship, wearing tons of gold, and an extremely poor aim?

I keep wondering what would happen in a gun fight between the A-Team and Storm Troopers......

 

[KNH]

Does this mean he'd be flying around an in ugly black ship, wearing tons of gold, and an extremely poor aim?

Data: "I express remorse for those less intelligent."

I keep wondering what would happen in a gun fight between the A-Team and Storm Troopers......

Collateral damage. Lots.

 

[Trekker4747]

Pretty sure this was covered in the episode when Data said he would resign if the ruling went against him. Once he was no longer in Starfleet, Starfleet had no right to order him to do anything.

But that was what the whole trial was about. Data tried to resign but Maddox said Data couldn't which spawned the trial at the JAG office. The trial was about whether or not Data had the right to choose his destiny which he was granted and Maddox withdrew the transfer order (since Data rejected the transfer.)

Had Data lost the trial I suspect he would have had no choice within himself to do anything but submit to Maddox's procedures as Data's programming seems to rarely allow him to act outside of authority. The JAG office, Maddox and Starfleet would be the "authority" telling him he has no right to choose and Data likely would have agreed to that "law" being, well, law.

 

[nightwind1]

Starfleet's position made no sense

You said it.

Suppose Data had lost the trial (or hearing) in Measure of a Man.

Then corporations would be people.

Now THAT is unbelievable science fiction!

 

[Unicron]

I never fully understood Starfleet's stance in this episode. If Data has/had the right to choose to enter Starfleet and had to go through the academy and all of the procedures to become an officer and then work his way up the ranks by working posts on ships then surely he has as much "right" to chose what to do with his career as anyone else. This is a fantastic episode but Starfleet's position made no sense and I don't feel Riker did a good job of showing how Data was property of Starfleet and didn't have a right to chose, all he did was prove that Data had incredible strength, detachable limbs and could be turned off. Well, that could apply to many species the Federation encounters.

I don't really see it as Starfleet's position, but that of Commander Maddox (though he may effectively spoken for Starfleet to a degree). And it seems that even he realized how difficult it would be to prove Data's "lack" of sentience, since no one else opposed his admission to the academy and Picard showed how nebulous a concept it is. Hence why Maddox quickly moved from "Data is non-sentient" to "Data is Starfleet property."

It's a very interesting episode, but I've always felt this plot detail was a bit of a snag too. I can understand why Maddox would have been reluctant to accept a being like Data as being more than a simple machine, but it seems like Starfleet as a whole is more open-minded.

 

[Trekker4747]

I dunno, Starfleet's position seemed to clearly be on the side of Data being "property" as they did approve the transfer request and look how the Admiral breaches the subject on the bridge after Maddox interjects, "Oh, and Commander Maddox is here to look at your android."

He says it in a manner that suggests he's written Data off as nothing more than a piece of hardware to look at and not be considered as anything approaching a sentient/sapient being.

 

[davejames]

But that was what the whole trial was about. Data tried to resign but Maddox said Data couldn't which spawned the trial at the JAG office. The trial was about whether or not Data had the right to choose his destiny which he was granted and Maddox withdrew the transfer order (since Data rejected the transfer.)

I can understand that argument if Data had been built by Starfleet. But the fact he was built by an outside party, with no affiliation whatsoever to Starfleet, would seem to automatically preclude that.

I haven't seen the episode in a while so I don't remember if that was addressed or not, but to me that's the only real argument Picard would have to make here: Data can't be Starfleet's property because he wasn't even CREATED by them.



Unless of course that was part of the fine print when he signed up ("By signing this form, you hereby agree to become the property of Starfleet Command").

 

[Trekker4747]

That argument was never raised, but I suspect they would have claimed "salvage rights" or claimed Data under probate or something.