If 1701 survived Star Trek III...

[Riley]

...how might the film series been different?

The Enterprise couldn't have landed in TVH, so the crew would have had to beam down while hiding the ship from 20th century detection. That would have made for some additional complexity in terms of getting the transparent aluminum aboard.

Also, if Enterprise crashes into the bay, is she able to be saved and refit? If not, do we get the Enterprise-A or does the crew get the Excelsior or maybe an Excelsior Class Enterprise-A?

I wish the original Enterprise had survived the film series and found a place of pride in a Starfleet naval museum. Sadly, we never got the chance to know the Enterprise-A.

 

[fireproof78]

So, the ENTERPRISE could handle the time warp better because it had done it before. Likely utilize a lunar orbit and figure out ways to land a shuttle without being seen.

Bigger spaces for the whales too.

 

[tenmei]

Bigger spaces for the whales too.

Flood the shuttlebay?

 

[fireproof78]

Flood the shuttlebay?

Or use the swimming pool.

 

[Firebird]

Somehow, I think the Vulcans would likely have avoided giving political asylum if Kirk and crew had the Enterprise with them. It's a lot harder to disguise a starship of her size and notoriety than a small Bird of Prey with a cloaking device.

 

[Allyn Gibson]

If the Big E survived the film, the film series would be so different that predicting Star Trek IV is all but impossible.

I somehow doubt Starfleet would be patient if Kirk still held the Enterprise at the end of Star Trek III. That's a capital ship, and they're going to want it back ASAP. You can almost wave away Starfleet Intelligence not seizing the Bird of Prey — it's physically on Vulcan — but reclaiming the Enterprise would be a hell of a lot easier. Just board a crew, take it, and shoot to kill any resistance (as Kirk and crew are mutineers).

In short, a Star Trek IV in that situation is probably going to deal more directly with Kirk and his crew as mutineers and the consequences of their actions in III. Probably like The Caine Mutiny Court-Martial.

 

[Ssosmcin]

Well you'd have to change the entire ending of ST3. The Enterprise's destruction eliminated most of the Klingons and gave Kirk and the film an extra layer of tragedy and challenge. Honestly, it wouldn't be the same film and The Voyage Home wouldn't be the same movie either. Unless the probe showed up just as the Enterprise got Spock to Vulcan and headed straight home.

TBH, I can't figure out why Kirk and co hid away instead of just facing the music. Other than dramatic necessity. Kirk wasn't one to shirk his responsibilities.

 

[thribs]

I imagine it would go to the fleet museum.

 

[Riley]

If the Big E survived the film, the film series would be so different that predicting Star Trek IV is all but impossible.

I somehow doubt Starfleet would be patient if Kirk still held the Enterprise at the end of Star Trek III. That's a capital ship, and they're going to want it back ASAP. You can almost wave away Starfleet Intelligence not seizing the Bird of Prey — it's physically on Vulcan — but reclaiming the Enterprise would be a hell of a lot easier. Just board a crew, take it, and shoot to kill any resistance (as Kirk and crew are mutineers).

In short, a Star Trek IV in that situation is probably going to deal more directly with Kirk and his crew as mutineers and the consequences of their actions in III. Probably like The Caine Mutiny Court-Martial.

I don't think it's that simple. For starters, the CIC knew what Kirk wanted to do, but they had no way of knowing Kirk was even able to get Spock off of the Genesis planet. Grissom was destroyed, so there were no reports from the area. They could have had a ship waiting at Vulcan, but I can see Sarek use his considerable clout to go to bat for Kirk and his crew. He could have protected them long enough for Spock to be restored. As for a movie dealing with their court martial, I'm not sure that would have been light or interesting enough to follow up TWoK and TSFS.

Well you'd have to change the entire ending of ST3. The Enterprise's destruction eliminated most of the Klingons and gave Kirk and the film an extra layer of tragedy and challenge. Honestly, it wouldn't be the same film and The Voyage Home wouldn't be the same movie either. Unless the probe showed up just as the Enterprise got Spock to Vulcan and headed straight home.

TBH, I can't figure out why Kirk and co hid away instead of just facing the music. Other than dramatic necessity. Kirk wasn't one to shirk his responsibilities.

I don't like that Kirk lost his son and the Enterprise at the same time. Harve Bennet admitted that they only destroyed the Enterprise so that there was more drama in the second act. As for the Klingons, Kirk would have found another way. He was written into a corner for the sake of destroying the ship.

I don't think Kirk was hiding as much as waiting to make sure that Spock was fully restored. He likely wouldn't have stayed as long if they still had the Enterprise, but I think there are solid narrative reasons to keep the Enterprise there. Sarek's influence and notifying Starfleet that Spock has been restored would likely get Kirk and crew some mercy from Starfleet.

 

[DonIago]

You have to appreciate the irony that if the E isn't destroyed then the probe possibly doesn't get stopped in TVH.

 

[CoveTom]

Personally, I don't like the habit that the movies seem to have had of making the Enterprise seem so vulnerable to Klingon Birds of Prey. You literally have two different movies in which the Enterprise gets destroyed by a Bird of Prey, when in fact even under difficult circumstances the Enterprise should be more than a match for them.

Kruge even comments that "they outgun me ten to one." I know the automation system overloaded and they couldn't get the shields up, but one single torpedo hit cripples them to the point where abandoning ship and self-destructing was the only option? In the previous film, they spent the majority of the time trading volleys with the Reliant without shields, yet one hit from a BoP and they're toast? And in Generations, Riker's entire response is a single phaser shot. One. Even with the Duras sisters able to fire through the shields, the Enterprise should have been able to fire a couple spreads of torpedoes and take them out fairly easily.

 

[CorporalCaptain]

Maybe Morrow was right.

 

[Vagabond Elf]

Just board a crew, take it, and shoot to kill any resistance (as Kirk and crew are mutineers).

Why shoot to kill? This is the Federation, violence is a last resort, and a hand phaser is capable of instantly and safely rendering a person unconscious. I can't imagine any scenario where a "kill" setting would be needed against Kirk and company when "stun" works so well.

I mean, it's not implausible that security armour and the like would negate stun settings, so Kill settings still get used against hostil infantry and the like, but that's hardly needful against a bunch of near-retirees.

And it's not like the Federation is going to execute them for mutiny; they're going to go into re-education centres and have all their rebellious edges sanded off, not be lined up in front of a wall.

 

[Dukhat]

Isn't this similar to the 'Star Trek IV but no whales' thread? If you remove a key component of the storyline, then the story is going to be fundamentally different from what was originally presented.

But that aside, after the ship got the crap beat out of it in TWOK, the only two possible scenarios story-wise would have been that the ship eventually got repaired and some new unrelated story would have been written for STIII (probably set two or three years after TWOK, and no Spock), or the story would have continued on from TWOK and we got what we actually got. In my opinion, what we got was much better.

 

[fireproof78]

Personally, I don't like the habit that the movies seem to have had of making the Enterprise seem so vulnerable to Klingon Birds of Prey. You literally have two different movies in which the Enterprise gets destroyed by a Bird of Prey, when in fact even under difficult circumstances the Enterprise should be more than a match for them.

Kruge even comments that "they outgun me ten to one." I know the automation system overloaded and they couldn't get the shields up, but one single torpedo hit cripples them to the point where abandoning ship and self-destructing was the only option? In the previous film, they spent the majority of the time trading volleys with the Reliant without shields, yet one hit from a BoP and they're toast? And in Generations, Riker's entire response is a single phaser shot. One. Even with the Duras sisters able to fire through the shields, the Enterprise should have been able to fire a couple spreads of torpedoes and take them out fairly easily.

Yeah, this is ridiculous to me. I like a good underdog story, and certainly TWOK made that work pretty well. But the lack of teeth to the ENTERPRISE against a "Kia of Prey"* in these films is crazy.


*Credit to SF DEBRIS.

 

[Riley]

Personally, I don't like the habit that the movies seem to have had of making the Enterprise seem so vulnerable to Klingon Birds of Prey. You literally have two different movies in which the Enterprise gets destroyed by a Bird of Prey, when in fact even under difficult circumstances the Enterprise should be more than a match for them.

Kruge even comments that "they outgun me ten to one." I know the automation system overloaded and they couldn't get the shields up, but one single torpedo hit cripples them to the point where abandoning ship and self-destructing was the only option? In the previous film, they spent the majority of the time trading volleys with the Reliant without shields, yet one hit from a BoP and they're toast? And in Generations, Riker's entire response is a single phaser shot. One. Even with the Duras sisters able to fire through the shields, the Enterprise should have been able to fire a couple spreads of torpedoes and take them out fairly easily.

Excellent points, especially about GEN. Both movies had terribly flawed reasons for destroying their respective Enterprises, and as a result, both movies resort to contrivance to allow their destruction.

 

[CoveTom]

Excellent points, especially about GEN. Both movies had terribly flawed reasons for destroying their respective Enterprises, and as a result, both movies resort to contrivance to allow their destruction.

Absolutely! At least in "Rascals," dumb as it was, they showed more than one Bird of Prey getting the best of the Enterprise, and then then it was just enough to get the Ferengi on board, not to destroy it.

What I don't understand is why they didn't at least use a more powerful Klingon ship. Why did it have to be a Bird of Prey? Hell, in Generations, they even went so far as to make it an outdated, defective Bird of Prey. Just makes no sense at all.

 

[Riley]

Absolutely! At least in "Rascals," dumb as it was, they showed more than one Bird of Prey getting the best of the Enterprise, and then then it was just enough to get the Ferengi on board, not to destroy it.

What I don't understand is why they didn't at least use a more powerful Klingon ship. Why did it have to be a Bird of Prey? Hell, in Generations, they even went so far as to make it an outdated, defective Bird of Prey. Just makes no sense at all.

I've never understood why they didn't use a Vor'Cha class. I can't imagine filming that model would have been more expensive. Maybe they used the BoP because they couldn't afford to film new footage of a different ship blowing up? No matter the reason, it was still a terrible decision.

 

[Dukhat]

Excellent points, especially about GEN. Both movies had terribly flawed reasons for destroying their respective Enterprises, and as a result, both movies resort to contrivance to allow their destruction.

STIII’s reasoning was not flawed.

I've never understood why they didn't use a Vor'Cha class. I can't imagine filming that model would have been more expensive. Maybe they used the BoP because they couldn't afford to film new footage of a different ship blowing up? No matter the reason, it was still a terrible decision.

They didn’t use the Vor’cha because it was only a TV quality filming model. The BoP had been built specifically for feature films.

But with that said, the real reason they used the BoP in GEN was to reuse the stock footage from TUC of the ship exploding. They blew the budget in GEN on the sailing ship Enterprise and the Stellar Cartography set, so they didn’t have the money to build the D-12 model (if that was ever even considered in the first place.)

 

[CoveTom]

STIII’s reasoning was not flawed.

Kinda was, yeah.

They didn’t use the Vor’cha because it was only a TV quality filming model. The BoP had been built specifically for feature films.

I agree, I think that is probably the reason they didn't use the Vor'cha specifically, since it was built for TV. But why not use the K't'inga model from TMP that was definitely usable for a feature film? They had used it in TUC. Heck, maybe they could have even found a few stock shots from TMP and TUC they could use to save some money.

But with that said, the real reason they used the BoP in GEN was to reuse the stock footage from TUC of the ship exploding. They blew the budget in GEN on the sailing ship Enterprise and the Stellar Cartography set, so they didn’t have the money to build the D-12 model (if that was ever even considered in the first place.)

This kinda stuff I will never understand. Just like the Yosemite location stuff in TFF. Being out on that sailing ship was hardly crucial to the plot. Better to have saved the money and spent it elsewhere in the film, like not blatantly re-using a major effects shot from the immediately prior film.