I wouldn't want Bajor in the Federation if I was a Fed

[Sindatur]

In the first episode of Deep Space Nine, Kira explained that religion was the only thing holding Bajor together.

Sounds a little worrying to me.

They'd just been released from 50 years of Cardassian Occupation/Abuse, seems perfectly normal to me, that one specific thing, especially Religious Faith is all that's holding them together. Sure you have to watch out for whacky Fundamentalism, but, nothing bizarre/uncommon about the fact, IMHO, and probably the main reason the Federation wanted them to find their own identity before joining, not because Religion is necessarily bad, but, because it was all they had and needed to find themselves again.

 

[Damask]

In the first episode of Deep Space Nine, Kira explained that religion was the only thing holding Bajor together.

Sounds a little worrying to me.

Then five seasons later, it's Bajor's gods who were the only thing keeping the Alpha Quadrant together.

Honestly the Federation attempted genocide! Honestly they're hardly angels in all this.

 

[Sci]

Honestly the Federation attempted genocide! Honestly they're hardly angels in all this.

No, Section 31 attempted genocide, and did so without the knowledge or approval of the Federation government.

 

[T'Girl]

Still I never understood the reason for "exacting penitence" on Sisko for saving Bajor.

Sisko was trying to "control the game." A very interesting statement on the part of one of the Prophets that was never followed up on.

I think from that, they made it looked as if the Bajorans were simple minded people who projected a superstitious ideology on the Prophets.

The Bajorians knowledge of the Prophets came by way of the orbs that the Prophets sent to the Bajorian people. This is how they knew of the Passage, long before the Federation located the wormhole. As the Bajorians experienced orb induced "visions," they wrote them down, this is where the Bajorian faith came from.

I think later on, they fleshed the Prophets out, and gave them some relationship with the Bajorans.

Simply because Bajor was the closest planet to the mouth of the wormhole, that doesn't mean that the Prophet had to send the orbs there. They could have sent them to a planet in another star system. They could have sent them out the other end of the wormhole to the gamma quad. But they didn't, they sent them to the Bajorian people.

Not to Bajor the planet, the ball of metal and rock orbiting the Bajorian star, but to the people of Bajor. The Prophets very much possessed a relationship with the Bajorian people.

 

[TEACAKE'S PLEATHER DOME]

While at times it seems as though the Prophets are unaware of the Bajoran people perhaps this is because they so intertwined with them they don't see them clearly. Like we are with our lungs, utterly dependent on them and yet unaware of them unless something goes dramatically wrong.

 

[Sindatur]

Honestly the Federation attempted genocide! Honestly they're hardly angels in all this.

No, Section 31 attempted genocide, and did so without the knowledge or approval of the Federation government.

I'm not so sure, after the Romulus Episode with Bashir where he faces off against the Admiral, I don't believe that means Section 31 don't have Admiralty and higher support, I believe they have that support, but not always their backup, when it gets really dicey and the Admiralty and higher needs to claim cover/distance, they will, but don't be fooled into beliving the Admiralty and higher don't know about most plans and don't have an opportunity to strike them down if situations aren't deemed desperate enough, IMHO, of course

Someone funds them, and audits their expenditures, someone is closing their eyes, and I don't believe it's only 1 person

 

[JediKnightButler]

There wasn't anything about Bajor that made it unsuitable for Fed membership IMHO and, in fact, one of my biggest disappointments about WYLB is that, inexplicably, the entire series ended WITHOUT Bajor gaining admittance to the Fed. Keeping Bajor from being admitted and getting sucked into the Dominion War was a smart (and understandable) move early on but with the war finally over by WYLB, the total lack of resolution of this one single central plot point- established in the very first episode of the series- seems pretty ridiculous to me. What were the writers thinking? One of the worst missed opportunities in the history of TV (that I've seen so far). I know that it might have been too much to pack into a two-parter that was already bursting at the seams but it seems reasonable that they could've tacked on a proper conclusion to this story arc.

 

[Sindatur]

There wasn't anything about Bajor that made it unsuitable for Fed membership IMHO and, in fact, one of my biggest disappointments about WYLB is that, inexplicably, the entire series ended WITHOUT Bajor gaining admittance to the Fed. Keeping Bajor from being admitted and getting sucked into the Dominion War was a smart (and understandable) move early on but with the war finally over by WYLB, the total lack of resolution of this one single central plot point- established in the very first episode of the series- seems pretty ridiculous to me. What were the writers thinking? One of the worst missed opportunities in the history of TV (that I've seen so far). I know that it might have been too much to pack into a two-parter that was already bursting at the seams but it seems reasonable that they could've tacked on a proper conclusion to this story arc.

Seriously, after 5 1/2 years of Kai Winn Fundamentalist Preachings, that most of Bajor followed, after 50 years of Cardassian Occupation, with only Religion keeping them together, you expected them to be named as part of the UFP? Can you imagine how premature it is in them finding themselves, to expect entrance by the conclusion of the series, when they've only had 5 minutes to find themselves? With the way it played out, I, personally, would've felt Bajor was cheated, to roll it up in a ribbon so arbitrarily, because the show was ending. We know they'll get there, but, WYLB was not their proper entry point, IMHO, Kai Winn has only just left the scene, it's now time to find their identity, they couldn't do it with her pulling all the strings.

 

[TEACAKE'S PLEATHER DOME]

Why would we want to see it anyway. A ceremony? Speeches about the wonderful Federation? Kira wiping a tear? This is not good tv.

 

[Deks]

Well, if I'm not mistaken, it was the Bajoran government that wanted the Federation help, and the Federation wanted to help Bajor in the first place (but they couldn't do anything until the Cardassians left).
Furthermore, I agree that Bajor was a viable candidate among other things because it's close to Cardassia - however, we've seen the Federation being interested in less developed planets for example and admitting them into the fold.

Most of all, I think that while a world has to meet certain standards to join the Federation, they have to have certain cultural issues settled.
The caste based system was done away with by Bajorans themselves a long time ago, and it's re-enactment would have meant no entry into the Federation, so from a cultural point of view and social standards, I think that Bajor passes most of the parameters, and while religion is a big part of many Bajorans lives (though not ALL of them), one has to keep in mind how that perception could have persisted due to the Wormhole aliens excessive meddling in the early days, but later on when the Cardassians came and effectively enslaved them (they turned to the only thing that played a big part of their lives - but for all we know, they could have been moving away slowly from religious perceptions of the Wormhole aliens as they continued to develop technologically, but the occupation brought it back in full force).

Other than that, while I am annoyed by religion overall and steer clear of it (along with concepts such as 'belief' 'faith' 'truth' etc. in any shape or form), Bajorans seem to not have any major internal issues or use their religion for harming others (for the most part) or starting wars.

To that end, we know the Federation enjoys providing relief effort to other species if they need them, which can easily pave the way for better relations down the line.
Also, Bajor was not admitted into the Federation immediately.
It took several years after the occupation ended, and while the Federation provided outside help, Bajorans did manage to recover fairly quickly (despite the hiccups).
I would imagine that many of the Cardassian and Bajoran technologies left after the occupation was streamlined to work with Federation tech, and that probably increased the speed of recovery.

And entry into the Federation was again delayed because of the Dominion War and the way how Ds9 completely made retards out of the Federation (among other things) as the show progressed.

 

[Nightdiamond]

With the Orb thing, I always got the impression (the writer's intent) it was like the movie where the tribe finds a coke bottle dropped from an airplane and think it is a message from the gods.

I'm surprised the Bajorans weren't bitter that the Fed didn't do anything during the occupation. I know some f them resented it. They literally let the Cardassian rape their planet and people knowing full well what they were doing.

Now, on the other hand, when the Cardassians were attacked by the Klingons, they intervened and even risked war.

Later they gave Cardassia 12 industrial replicators, Bajor only two. What happened to the non interference policy--weren't they being hypocritical?

 

[Nerys Ghemor]

I think that Kira WAS bitter that the Federation did nothing at first, as well she should be. (If you read Day of the Vipers, in Treklit canon what the Feds did was even worse.) And while I think the Cardassians did need to be supported against the Klingons, it was very hypocritical that Federation intervened then and not to support the Bajorans.

That said, as far as the industrial replicators go...that may have been in proportion with each entity's populations. The Cardassians had numerous colonies and a way bigger population.

 

[Sindatur]

I think that Kira WAS bitter that the Federation did nothing at first, as well she should be. (If you read Day of the Vipers, in Treklit canon what the Feds did was even worse.) And while I think the Cardassians did need to be supported against the Klingons, it was very hypocritical that Federation intervened then and not to support the Bajorans.

That said, as far as the industrial replicators go...that may have been in proportion with each entity's populations. The Cardassians had numerous colonies and a way bigger population.

Matter of scale, The Federation was in on the ground floor of the Klingon invasion of Cardassia (With a signed treaty) and the Federation was looking out for the Security of the Entire Quadrant from Invasion by the Dominion.

Bajor on the other hand, was a single world, occupied for 50 years, without any alliance relationship, and that one world didn't put the security of the entire Quadrant at risk

 

[Nightdiamond]

But ...isn't what's right, right? I know you have the greater good issue to consider.

Despite the treaties, Cardassia was caught in several plots against the Federation, and after the Klingon invasion, they turned against the Federation, in the name gaining more power.

The Bajorans were willing to fight alongside the Federation even against the Dominion, so I'll really give them credit for that.

KEEVE: You were innocent bystanders for decades as the Cardassians took our homes.. as they violated and tortured our people in the most hideous ways imaginable... as we were forced to flee...

PICARD: We were saddened by those events... but they occurred within the designated borders of the Cardassian Empire

KEEVE: and the Federation is pledged not to interfere in the internal affairs of others.

So it's hard to see why the Fed would stick it's neck out to aid a power that has attempted to betray them numerous times.

 

[T'Girl]

The caste based system was done away with by Bajorans themselves a long time ago

Bajorians set aside the D'jarras at the beginning of the Cardassian occupation, so sixty some years. The way Kira spoke of it, it sounds like it was (perhaps initially) to have been a temporary measure, in order to release the populace to combat the Cardassians. If it were not for the occupation, would the Bajorians have put it aside in the time frame they did?

That wasn't my impression.

but for all we know, they could have been moving away slowly from religious perceptions of the Wormhole aliens as they continued to develop technologically

The Bajorians were a advanced technological people prior to the arrival of the first orb. The "Prophet religion" came into being among a technological people.

 

[Sci]

I'm surprised the Bajorans weren't bitter that the Fed didn't do anything during the occupation. I know some f them resented it. They literally let the Cardassian rape their planet and people knowing full well what they were doing.

Now, on the other hand, when the Cardassians were attacked by the Klingons, they intervened and even risked war.

One thing to consider about the difference between Cardassia invading Bajor and Qo'noS invading Cardassia is this:

Technically, the Cardassians never invaded Bajor. Instead, they were "invited" by the Bajoran government. Now, this government was essentially a Cardassian puppet government -- but, nominally speaking, Bajor retained its own government, and that government allowed the Cardassians in and apparently never requested the Federation to intervene.

By contrast, when the Klingons invaded the Cardassian Union, a new, civilian government had just taken power after overthrowing the military dictatorship that had ruled Cardassia for decades. And this new civilian government was asking for help.

So the two scenarios were different. In one scenario, a non-democratic Bajoran government made it clear it did not want Federation help, and there was no competing government to request an intervention. In another scenario, a new, civilian Cardassian government (which had the potential to fundamentally reform the Union into a freer state) was actively requesting help.

There's also something else to consider:

The Federation didn't intervene in the Klingon invasion of the Cardassian Union until Captain Sisko forced the issue by taking matters into his own hands without consulting the President or Council first, if I recall correctly. Whereas, when the Bajoran Occupation began, Sisko hadn't yet been born.

 

[Gagarin]

But ...isn't what's right, right? I know you have the greater good issue to consider.

Despite the treaties, Cardassia was caught in several plots against the Federation, and after the Klingon invasion, they turned against the Federation, in the name gaining more power.

The Bajorans were willing to fight alongside the Federation even against the Dominion, so I'll really give them credit for that.

KEEVE: You were innocent bystanders for decades as the Cardassians took our homes.. as they violated and tortured our people in the most hideous ways imaginable... as we were forced to flee...

PICARD: We were saddened by those events... but they occurred within the designated borders of the Cardassian Empire

KEEVE: and the Federation is pledged not to interfere in the internal affairs of others.

So it's hard to see why the Fed would stick it's neck out to aid a power that has attempted to betray them numerous times.

Did the occupation happen after or before the Fed-Cardassian War?

Part of me thinks the prime directive got tooken up a notch after Starfleet got its ass handed to it for several years.

 

[Nightdiamond]

One thing to consider about the difference between Cardassia invading Bajor and Qo'noS invading Cardassia is this:

Technically, the Cardassians never invaded Bajor. Instead, they were "invited" by the Bajoran government. Now, this government was essentially a Cardassian puppet government

Here's something I've noticed. In trek literature and articles, it is said the Bajorans invited Cardassia . However, I can't find a source from the show itself that says the Bajorans agreed to be absorbed into Cardassia.

(I might have missed something from an episode)

It is known, that the Cardassians came to Bajor as a "friend" and offered some type of aid to Bajor.

But is it really known whether they specifically agreed to become part of Cardassia? That makes all the difference.

The sentiment seems to be that there was an outcry, but the federation couldn't do anything because now, Bajor was considered part of Cardassia--except it may not have been Bajor's choice.

Keeve: How convenient it must be for you to turn a deaf ear to those who suffer behind a line on a map.

Prime Directive politics, maybe.

Don't get me wrong-- the Bajorans had some serious religious and civil rights issues before they met the Federation--they may not have been exactly prime candidates at the time.

Did the occupation happen after or before the Fed-Cardassian War?

Part of me thinks the prime directive got tooken up a notch after Starfleet got its ass handed to it for several years.

That's another one that is confusing- they both certainly occured together at one point.

The war could have been used a humanitarian pretext for liberating Bajor. They probably could have done it. Especially if the Bajoran were crying out to the Feds for help, with stories, pictures, etc.

But to the Bajorans, it must have looked like once the Feds pushed Cardassia back, it signed a treaty with them and left them on their own.

 

[Timo]

Astropolitics may have played a major role there. Bajor appears to be the most important and closest Cardassian colonial holding, right next door to the home system (in terms of onscreen maps and plotlines). Any attempt at extending the old Federation-Cardassian War to Bajor may have been met with resistance as fierce as that encountered in WWII on the islands closest to Japanese mainland, chiefly Okinawa; Starfleet may have stopped short of trying to challenge the Cardassian hold of Bajor for purely humanitarian reasons, figuring that Bajor would be far worse off from liberation than from a few more centuries of occupation.

Also noteworthy is that the independent cultures in the "neutral" space around Bajor and near Cardassia seemed to be quite pro-Cardassian and anti-Federation. The Klaestron, the Xepolites and the Kressari all had their grievances with the UFP. Liberation of such worlds from Cardassian influence might have been every bit as pretentious as liberation of the eastern European nations from German influence by the Soviets was. The Feds would have needed pretty solid reasons for deciding that Bajoran unity with Cardassia wasn't voluntary, legal and according to the wishes of the decisive elements of the Bajoran society (this need not spell out "majority" as the Federation apparently also respects forms of government other than democracies). No doubt such reasons would have emerged with sufficient effort, but the effort itself would have made the whole liberation business dubious.

Timo Saloniemi

 

[Nerys Ghemor]

I've always suspected Cardassia deliberately manipulated its neighbors into client states similar to the way the Soviets did with their neighbors. At least in my own works, some of those worlds were even made into spacefaring civilizations by the Cardassians, to force their loyalty.