I wouldn't want Bajor in the Federation if I was a Fed

[Sindatur]

The member planet is still given a lot of lieway to run things and continue their culture unchanged, the Bajoran culture would go on as it always has. Individual Bajorans wishing to join Starfleet would have to face up to not having their imaginary beliefs pampered or catered too as it would be at home and deal with reality like everyone else,

Their "imaginary beliefs?"

Which beliefs of theirs, exactly, were imaginary? That the Prophets exist? That the Prophets were engaged in an ongoing conflict with entities of the same kind known as the Pagh-wraiths? That the Prophets can accurately predict the future? That the Prophets communicate with humanoids through the Orbs? That the Prophets live in the Wormhole? That the Prophets make demands of Bajorans who communicate with them?

'Cos, last I checked, all of those "imaginary beliefs" were empirically true.

Yea, I could never understand characters that gave the prophets no credibility. Sure you can debate wether they should be called Gods or Worm Hole Aliens, but, I don't remember the Bajorans actually referring to them as Gods or even Creators, it's always been just Prophets, and they are indeed Prophets delivering Prophecies

 

[Mr. Laser Beam]

If I were from Bajor, I wouldn't want the Federation gaining any sovereignty over my world. An alliance between sovereign powers--acceptable. Being absorbed into the Federation? No thanks. The Feds would likely try to alter Bajor's form of government and impose other things that might be opposed to Bajoran beliefs and values. Those matters should be for Bajor itself to settle, not for anyone else.

The Federation doesn't do that. Based on all available evidence, each member world is left to govern itself as it sees fit - the only restrictions for membership are 1) one world government, and 2) no caste-based discrimination. That's it.

So Bajor would be fine.

To put it another way: If the Federation was such a threat to Bajoran sovereignty, why would they have allowed Sisko to be the Emissary? The Federation didn't interfere with that, did they? They didn't protest Sisko's selection, nor did they use his religious status to influence Bajoran politics in any way.

Picard did say that it was Sisko's job to make sure Bajor was ready for Federation membership, but that is entirely normal. Bajoran leaders surely knew that their world was being considered for membership (given that Sisko was instructed to prepare them, then logically Bajoran leaders must have previously put forth a petition to join). And since Sisko was under orders not to violate the Prime Directive in so advising them, then I don't see the problem.

Indeed, during the Dominion War, it was Sisko who advised that Bajor should NOT yet be a Federation member, and that advice was obeyed...

 

[TEACAKE'S PLEATHER DOME]

The member planet is still given a lot of lieway to run things and continue their culture unchanged, the Bajoran culture would go on as it always has. Individual Bajorans wishing to join Starfleet would have to face up to not having their imaginary beliefs pampered or catered too as it would be at home and deal with reality like everyone else,

Their "imaginary beliefs?"

Which beliefs of theirs, exactly, were imaginary? That the Prophets exist? That the Prophets were engaged in an ongoing conflict with entities of the same kind known as the Pagh-wraiths? That the Prophets can accurately predict the future? That the Prophets communicate with humanoids through the Orbs? That the Prophets live in the Wormhole? That the Prophets make demands of Bajorans who communicate with them?

'Cos, last I checked, all of those "imaginary beliefs" were empirically true.

They were very lucky as far as actual proof freely available. Not so lucky in that the planet couldn't exactly opt out of having superior beings with a finger in their worlds pie. This would quite piss me off,

Still I would personally rather be debating whether God is an alien or a spiritual entity rather than debating whether God exists.

 

[Mr. Laser Beam]

And where's the evidence that Bajoran Starfleet officers would face discrimination based on their beliefs? We've never seen anyone do that. There was that one time that Riker made Ensign Ro take off her earring, but I always thought he just did that because Ro had a history of insubordination and Riker just wanted to make sure she knew she had to take orders. If it had been any other Bajoran, he wouldn't have done that.

 

[shivkala]

I think Bajor would be great to have in the Federation because of their different views. Any group that only lets in those with similar ideas grows stagnant and that charge has been leveled at the Federation. Allowing in Bajor, a deeply spiritual race still healing from the scars of the Cardassian occupation brings a great deal of different viewpoints into the Federation.

There's also the fact that along with Bajor comes Deep Space Nine and access to the Wormhole. Now, I'm not saying the Bajorans would, but if the Federation denied them entry, they could kick them off of DS9 and make access to the Wormhole very difficult. Of course, that would put them at a disadvantage, because, as we saw in "Shadows and Symbols," it would not take much to defeat the Bajorans for control of DS9 and the Wormhole, and the Federation is the best bet in the Alpha Quadrant as far as allying yourself with a power that will respect you and your viewpoints.

 

[Nerys Ghemor]

Also I'm not sure why you wouldn't want to be a member of the Feds, it gives you so much security.

If your interest is defense, a signed alliance and defense pact and perhaps a trade agreement is sufficient; no membership necessary for that and does not force you to subject your world to outside criteria outside the narrow confines of the treaty.

There is no evidence other than a particularly "rosy" interpretation of the episode that what happened to Ro was a mere personal matter. There is other evidence in TNG of a generalized anti-religious attitude too--"Who Watches the Watchers" goes way beyond the scope of a single case of interference (which I agree had to be reversed) and into overall comments on religion. If I were the Bajorans, those sorts of reports would not give me confidence as to what could be expected of full Federation membership versus the negotiation of favorable defense and trade treaties.

 

[T'Girl]

There was that one time that Riker made Ensign Ro take off her earring ...

I've considered the possibility that Riker might simply not have known what the ear piece was, what it meant, when he order her to take it off. While the more knowledgeable Picard let her wear it.

 

[You_Will_Fail]

Well everyone knows Riker is a total bastard

 

[C.E. Evans]

I've never seen joining the Federation as being "absorbed." I always thought that the purpose of it was as an agreement to work together to provide security to each other, and that internal politics and culture of planets didn't matter as long as they weren't hostile to other members. The only political change would be that each member has to play by the rules of the Federation when conducting foreign relations.

In a nutshell. And those rules can be as simple as an agreement for Federation members not to wage war upon one another and a guarantee of basic freedoms and rights for all Federation citizens, no matter who they are or where they go within the Federation, IMO.

 

[Photon]

It seems like it was still a planet full of very volatile, superstitious and occasionally hostile nutjobs,

You mean like Andor?

Boom.

Yep, the Feds need to make sure they're religion-free..ur um...superstition-free.

 

[Navaros]

Their "imaginary beliefs?"

Which beliefs of theirs, exactly, were imaginary? That the Prophets exist? That the Prophets were engaged in an ongoing conflict with entities of the same kind known as the Pagh-wraiths? That the Prophets can accurately predict the future? That the Prophets communicate with humanoids through the Orbs? That the Prophets live in the Wormhole? That the Prophets make demands of Bajorans who communicate with them?

'Cos, last I checked, all of those "imaginary beliefs" were empirically true.

The belief that the wormhole aliens are Prophets is an imaginary belief, at least based on what DS9 puts on-screen. The Bajorans assume that the wormhole aliens are good & divine, and that the wormhole aliens care about them. Nothing on-screen in DS9 proves those things to be true.

The point that the wormhole aliens can predict the future is highly debatable, especially since they are too dumb to know who Sisko is even after they took great pains to possess his mother, to make her give birth to him specifically.

Regarding the point in the original post: the Federation forces everyone who joins to conform to their hivemind. Otherwise, it doesn't let them join. So you have nothing to worry about, You_Will_Fail.

 

[Damask]

The belief that the wormhole aliens are Prophets is an imaginary belief, at least based on what DS9 puts on-screen. The Bajorans assume that the wormhole aliens are good & divine, and that the wormhole aliens care about them. Nothing on-screen in DS9 proves those things to be true.

The Bajorans never stated that the aliens were good and divine? You're comparing them to standard gods here. The Bajorans had enormous faith in their Prophets but I don't recall them being good and divine.

As for the aliens caring for them? Of course they do. They save Bajor from the Dominion force in the wormhole. They send their Emissary a vision of locusts destroying Bajor unless it stands alone during the war. Which is all true.

They don't understand linear stuff. That's why they have Sisko. Actually that's the best argument that the Prophets care about Bajor. They gave Bajor Ben f****** Sisko to protect it!

The point that the wormhole aliens can predict the future is highly debatable, especially since they are too dumb to know who Sisko is even after they took great pains to possess his mother, to make her give birth to him specifically.

After they discovered Sisko, they made Sisko. It's not linear.

 

[Navaros]

The Bajorans never stated that the aliens were good and divine? You're comparing them to standard gods here. The Bajorans had enormous faith in their Prophets but I don't recall them being good and divine.

As for the aliens caring for them? Of course they do. They save Bajor from the Dominion force in the wormhole. They send their Emissary a vision of locusts destroying Bajor unless it stands alone during the war. Which is all true.

They don't understand linear stuff. That's why they have Sisko. Actually that's the best argument that the Prophets care about Bajor. They gave Bajor Ben f****** Sisko to protect it!


After they discovered Sisko, they made Sisko. It's not linear.

The wormhole aliens being called "Prophets," "gods," and being prayed to, certainly states that Bajorans think of them as good and divine.

They intervened in the Dominion War for their own well-being, not for the well-being of Bajorans.

Whether Bajor actually would have been destroyed is an open question, but even if it would have been, that only proves that they care about the planet, not the people on it.

Making Sisko after they discover him makes no sense. He can't have been discovered if he wasn't made first - that's impossible.

Them wanting Sisko to protect the planet Bajor still does not prove that they care anything about Bajorans. It only proves that they care about the planet itself.

 

[shivkala]

The wormhole aliens being called "Prophets," "gods," and being prayed to, certainly states that Bajorans think of them as good and divine.

You've never heard the phrase "prophet of doom"?

A better argument would be that their texts refer to the struggle between the Prophets and the Pah'Wraiths as a struggle between "Good and Evil." Kost Amojan, the representative of the Pah'Wraiths is supposed to be evil incarnate.

Making Sisko after they discover him makes no sense. He can't have been discovered if he wasn't made first - that's impossible.

They are not linear. It does not make sense linearally, which they are not. Existing outside space/time means they can go from effect to cause and not vice versa as we are forced to do.

 

[Damask]

The wormhole aliens being called "Prophets," "gods," and being prayed to, certainly states that Bajorans think of them as good and divine.

Which they generally prove. Save Bajor from the Dominion? In fact Bajor comes out fairly well after the Dominion War with every other power suffering losses.

Whether Bajor actually would have been destroyed is an open question, but even if it would have been, that only proves that they care about the planet, not the people on it.

Them wanting Sisko to protect the planet Bajor still does not prove that they care anything about Bajorans. It only proves that they care about the planet itself.

Now, that makes no sense and you're taking Sisko's words of "save Bajor" far too literally.

Of course Bajor would have been destroyed. The Dominion wanted to blow up their sun before!

 

[Photon]

The wormhole aliens being called "Prophets," "gods," and being prayed to, certainly states that Bajorans think of them as good and divine.

Which they generally prove. Save Bajor from the Dominion? In fact Bajor comes out fairly well after the Dominion War with every other power suffering losses.

Whether Bajor actually would have been destroyed is an open question, but even if it would have been, that only proves that they care about the planet, not the people on it.

Them wanting Sisko to protect the planet Bajor still does not prove that they care anything about Bajorans. It only proves that they care about the planet itself.

Now, that makes no sense and you're taking Sisko's words of "save Bajor" far too literally.

Of course Bajor would have been destroyed. The Dominion wanted to blow up their sun before!

Still I never understood the reason for "exacting penitence" on Sisko for saving Bajor. Seemed too contrived

 

[Sindatur]

The Bajorans never stated that the aliens were good and divine? You're comparing them to standard gods here. The Bajorans had enormous faith in their Prophets but I don't recall them being good and divine.

As for the aliens caring for them? Of course they do. They save Bajor from the Dominion force in the wormhole. They send their Emissary a vision of locusts destroying Bajor unless it stands alone during the war. Which is all true.

They don't understand linear stuff. That's why they have Sisko. Actually that's the best argument that the Prophets care about Bajor. They gave Bajor Ben f****** Sisko to protect it!


After they discovered Sisko, they made Sisko. It's not linear.

The wormhole aliens being called "Prophets," "gods," and being prayed to, certainly states that Bajorans think of them as good and divine.

They intervened in the Dominion War for their own well-being, not for the well-being of Bajorans.

Whether Bajor actually would have been destroyed is an open question, but even if it would have been, that only proves that they care about the planet, not the people on it.

Making Sisko after they discover him makes no sense. He can't have been discovered if he wasn't made first - that's impossible.

Them wanting Sisko to protect the planet Bajor still does not prove that they care anything about Bajorans. It only proves that they care about the planet itself.

When did the Bajorans refer to the Prophets as "Gods"? I don't recall them ever referring to them as anything but Prophets

 

[Timelord79 (he/him)]

i think there has been an instance or two were someone asked "Who are the prophets?" and Kira explained them as their gods.
And the Bajoran clearly belief that the prophets influence and even create their destiny to a degree while at the same time trying their best to fulfill what they think is the will of the prophets.
That sounds pretty much like they are considered gods.

 

[Nightdiamond]

At one point, weren't the Prophets unaware of what a physical being even was? They asked Sisko what was he.

I think from that, they made it looked as if the Bajorans were simple minded people who projected a superstitious ideology on the Prophets.

I mean worshiping beings that aren't even aware of your existence has to be a hopeless endeavor.

I think later on, they fleshed the Prophets out, and gave them some relationship with the Bajorans.

And then that leads to the dangerous superstitious part-- like when the Bajoran who thought he was the emissary, brought back a caste system.

The Bajorans suddenly obeyed this guy without question. One Bajoran even pushed another one off a ledge, killing him, because he belonged to lower caste, and wouldn't quit his job because of it.

Now, things like that may make the Bajorans a little unpredictable for Federation membership. But otherwise, they seem to be logical and more importantly, loyal to the Federation.

 

[DAYoung]

In the first episode of Deep Space Nine, Kira explained that religion was the only thing holding Bajor together.

Sounds a little worrying to me.