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I wonder how homosexuals feel about...

Yeah really...this has been around...nothing new here. I've used "that's gay" in front of gay friends....they know what I (really) mean.


Same here. I know a ton of gay people who say the same thing, actually.

It means whatever you take it as. If you think it's homophobic, well, I think you're wrong in generalising that. I've said it before and I am not homophobic and I have no issues whatsoever with homosexuality or bisexuality, as I have stated plenty of times.
 
A.) I never said women weren't judged base don their looks. Point in fact, I said women were judged rather harshly based on their looks.
B.) I never said women weren't judged based on behavior either. They are, but it is increasingly unpopular to criticize a woman who behaves in more masculine ways as it is, rightfully, considered sexist. The same progress can't be said for men who behave in what society deems a feminine manner.

There is nothing wrong with sexism (up to a point); we are, after all, different genders. Mostly, people are beginning to see that we aren't the same, we are equal, and that there is a difference.

You indeed said women were judged on her looks, that is why I gave that example; in my opinion, most women are judged on their behavior as much as their looks, unless they completely disregard their looks. A tomboy can still look beautiful, if she only keeps giving attention to her looks. When she doesn't, she doesn't look less feminine, she just looks ugly. And it's the same with guys; nowadays, you can't walk into a bar with an old oversized sweater, not having shaved for a week and without a goot haircut; you, as a guy, are judged on those looks.

You can't walk into a bar like that? What? That cop from Harvard is gonna stop me?

What you mean is, it's unlikely women are going to find gruffy Cosby-sweater guy attractive. Men won't think twice about that guy. He'll just be some guy who doesn't get noticed. Now, put the same guy in vanilla skin-tight slacks and a shirt with a collar the size of New Brunswick and see if he gets noticed.

What you're talking about is only sexual attraction.
 
What you mean is, it's unlikely women are going to find gruffy Cosby-sweater guy attractive. Men won't think twice about that guy. He'll just be some guy who doesn't get noticed. Now, put the same guy in vanilla skin-tight slacks and a shirt with a collar the size of New Brunswick and see if he gets noticed.

Yes, you are right. But it works the other way around, as well:

When a girl walks into a bar wearing unrevealing clothing, she'll just be some girl who doesn't get noticed, even by other women. Now, put the same girl in some revealing, attractive clothing and she suddenly gets noticed.

My point is; both women and men are judged both on their looks and their behavior. There is no difference to judging a women as to judging a man. To imply otherwise, is to say that one gender doesn't have to look good (or behave friendly) in today's society, while the other gender does. That hasn't been true for years.
 
What you mean is, it's unlikely women are going to find gruffy Cosby-sweater guy attractive. Men won't think twice about that guy. He'll just be some guy who doesn't get noticed. Now, put the same guy in vanilla skin-tight slacks and a shirt with a collar the size of New Brunswick and see if he gets noticed.

Yes, you are right. But it works the other way around, as well:

When a girl walks into a bar wearing unrevealing clothing, she'll just be some girl who doesn't get noticed, even by other women. Now, put the same girl in some revealing, attractive clothing and she suddenly gets noticed.

My point is; both women and men are judged both on their looks and their behavior. There is no difference to judging a women as to judging a man. To imply otherwise, is to say that one gender doesn't have to look good (or behave friendly) in today's society, while the other gender does. That hasn't been true for years.


This.

If you stand out, you'll get noticed. If you blend in, you wont.
 
If you stand out, you'll get noticed. If you blend in, you wont.

Then the only problem becomes that some people have trouble standing out or blending in, while others don't. But that has more to do with one's personality then one's gender.

I hate it that I never blend in. :D
 
Your first paragraph contradicts your second. You argue that the English is constantly evolving, and then attempt to pin the definition of "gay" and "queer" to outmoded meanings that certainly aren't in use by today's young people. Sorry, that doesn't fly.

My suggestion is to stop being obtuse. We both know that the people who use this term know exactly what it means, and we both know what, in today's society, what happens to men who behave in a manner that fails to meet society's definition of how a man should act.


:rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes:

Which part of my first and second paragraphs contradict each other? Point #1: Words are evolving, having different meanings as used by different people and different generations. Point #2: To prove my point exactly, "gay" is used by youngsters to denote something stupid or objectionable (rather than someone who's a homosexual). Reading Comprehension 101.

Correct, but they are doing so because "gay" is thought to be objectionable. They didn't pick the word out of thin air. "Dude, that's vacuous" never quite because all that popular. So why did "gay" come to mean objectionable? Of course! Because homosexuals are objectionable!

You know that. Don't lie to yourself.

I can see that, and I'm not questioning the other meanings of the word. My point is that you also have to look at the context or meaning of the word when it's used. And if a person really is gay, why would he/she be offended if someone calls him/her that?

Words like "moron," "imbecile," and "idiot" are commonly used by people as words of contempt rather than to refer to someone who actually has mental retardation (in a psychological sense of the word). "Fag" in the U.K. can mean "cigarette." Are you going to slap someone when they say, "Can I bum a fag?"
 
There is nothing wrong with sexism (up to a point); we are, after all, different genders.
First off, gender is a damned fluid term.
Second, sexism is prejudice and dsicrimination based on gender, period. That's the damned definition. What you're saying is the same saying that racism isn't bad, up to a point.

Mostly, people are beginning to see that we aren't the same, we are equal, and that there is a difference.
Except that many people don't see women and men as equal. This is why being feminine for a man is bad, and why being gay is bad. It's because feminie traits are perceived as weak. That isn't equal. That's sexist.

You indeed said women were judged on her looks, that is why I gave that example; in my opinion, most women are judged on their behavior as much as their looks, unless they completely disregard their looks. A tomboy can still look beautiful, if she only keeps giving attention to her looks. When she doesn't, she doesn't look less feminine, she just looks ugly. And it's the same with guys; nowadays, you can't walk into a bar with an old oversized sweater, not having shaved for a week and without a goot haircut; you, as a guy, are judged on those looks. And rightly so, everybody should pay attention to both the outside and the inside.
ThankQ hit the nail on the head perfectly here. I'll refer you to his post.

People judge both females and males exactly the same; both on their looks and on their behavior.
This is absurd. A woman who looks frumpy or lacks in what society deems attractive is going to get a lot more shit than a guy who fails in the same category. Likewise, a woman who is into sports and other traditionally male activities isn't going to endure the same criticism as a boy who behaves in a feminine manner and pursues feminine activities.

But the majority of the population doesn't use the word as a sign of weakness. At least, not over here. Because "gay" equals "feminine"; the only difference is that there's a guy involved. And over here, "feminine" does not equal "weakness". Just as "tomboy" equals "masculine", with the only difference that there's a girl involved. Those words have no derogatory meaning, unless they equal "ugly", as in example "that shirt looks gay", or "lame", as in the example "that action is gay". But in those cases, it simply has a different meaning, and has little to do with sexuality. Though in my circles, those other definitions are rarely used.
I call bullshit. A word is as good or as negative as the intentions of the person using it as well as the history behind that word. White people still can't use "nigger" -- even when singing along to a song or something equally as innocent -- because of the negative history of that word. Likewise, attempting to break "gay" from its association with homosexuality is pretty insulting, particularly when the word is being used in a negative light during a period when the GLBT community is still struggling for its civil rights.
 
:rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes:

Which part of my first and second paragraphs contradict each other? Point #1: Words are evolving, having different meanings as used by different people and different generations. Point #2: To prove my point exactly, "gay" is used by youngsters to denote something stupid or objectionable (rather than someone who's a homosexual). Reading Comprehension 101.

Correct, but they are doing so because "gay" is thought to be objectionable. They didn't pick the word out of thin air. "Dude, that's vacuous" never quite because all that popular. So why did "gay" come to mean objectionable? Of course! Because homosexuals are objectionable!

You know that. Don't lie to yourself.

I can see that, and I'm not questioning the other meanings of the word. My point is that you also have to look at the context or meaning of the word when it's used. And if a person really is gay, why would he/she be offended if someone calls him/her that?

Words like "moron," "imbecile," and "idiot" are commonly used by people as words of contempt rather than to refer to someone who actually has mental retardation (in a psychological sense of the word). "Fag" in the U.K. can mean "cigarette." Are you going to slap someone when they say, "Can I bum a fag?"

Okay, I get called "fucking faggot" usually several times a week. Comes with the job when some guys get a call they don't like or don't get a call they want. Nearly every call pisses someone off, and I get called things sailors in opposing navies wouldn't call each other.

But the one that always sticks out in my mind is "you fucking faggot". Are you going to debate that "fucking faggot" has a meaning we all clearly understand? Now, he's not calling me a "fucking faggot" because he sees me placing my cock in a man's ass, at which time "fucking faggot" would seem to fit the situation. No, he's calling me "fucking faggot" because he didn't like the yellow card he just received, or, something terribly drastic, like a throw in in the center 3rd didn't go his way (GASP!), so he decides to call the ref a "fucking faggot".

Now, I really don't think you can dance around the meaning of this.
 
And if a person really is gay, why would he/she be offended if someone calls him/her that?
Because you're using the world in a negative light. It's a criticism. "Gay" is bad. No one would have a problem if people were using the word "gay" to mean "good," y'know.
 
And if a person really is gay, why would he/she be offended if someone calls him/her that?
Because you're using the world in a negative light. It's a criticism. "Gay" is bad. No one would have a problem if people were using the word "gay" to mean "good," y'know.

This reminds me of The Simpsons. Homer was talking about crabgrass. He said that people would love it if it were called elf grass.
 
This reminds me of The Simpsons. Homer was talking about crabgrass. He said that people would love it if it were called elf grass.
Exactly. The Simpsons is awesome for subtly getting to the heart of things. How we use words -- and what words we use -- do impact how we see the world and how we react to things. That is what language means, anyway.
 
Gay is bad if you think it is.

My gay friends don't care if people use the word because they know it doesn't mean anything homophobic and even they say it. It's just a word that society randomly decided to make the meaning "stupid" but not for homophobic reasons.

'That is gay' = "That is stupid"


I think people are diving a little too deep when they start saying that if you say 'this is gay', you are saying that gay is wrong and you are homophobic. Most people don't even think of it having a deep meaning, they just say it because it's what people say.
 
Second, sexism is prejudice and dsicrimination based on gender, period. That's the damned definition. What you're saying is the same saying that racism isn't bad, up to a point.

Then I shouldn't have used the word "sexism", prejudice and discrimination is wrong no matter on what it's based. But men and women are different, both physically and behaviourally. However, that doesn't mean that they should be judged differently, and they aren't; people are intelligent enough to understand that.

Except that many people don't see women and men as equal. This is why being feminine for a man is bad, and why being gay is bad. It's because feminie traits are perceived as weak. That isn't equal. That's sexist.

In my experience, many people do see women and men as equal. It's the feminists and the "Neanderthals" that don't see women and men as equal; one group wants both genders to be the same (which is physically impossible), and the other wants both to be as far apart from each other as possible (which is mentally impossible). Both are wrong, but they do not constitute a majority of the population. As such, feminine traits are not perceived as weak, they are perceived as different to masculine traits. And in essence, that's exactly what they are.

This is absurd. A woman who looks frumpy or lacks in what society deems attractive is going to get a lot more shit than a guy who falls in the same category. Likewise, a woman who is into sports and other traditionally male activities isn't going to endure the same criticism as a boy who behaves in a feminine manner and pursues feminine activities.

No, what you state is absurd. A woman who looks frumpy is going to get exactly the amount of shit a guy is going to get who fails in the same category. Years ago, guys who cared for their looks were still called "metrosexual". Nowadays, it's the norm. Both women and men are expected to care as much for their looks as for their behavior. If you experience otherwise, perhaps you're not mingling among the right people. As another example, when I was in primary school, it was expected of me to play soccer, instead of doing gymnastics. Nowadays, about half of those who play soccer are girls and half of those who do gymnastics are boys. There's no prejudice about such things anymore.

I call bullshit. A word is as good or as negative as the intentions of the person using it as well as the history behind that word. White people still can't use "nigger" -- even when singing along to a song or something equally as innocent -- because of the negative history of that word. Likewise, attempting to break "gay" from its association with homosexuality is pretty insulting, particularly when the word is being used in a negative light during a period when the GLBT community is still struggling for its civil rights.

Over here, white people can and do use "nigger". There isn't such a distinction as the United States obviously has, where only black people are allowed to call each other "nigger". Now, it depends on the context if "nigger" is derogatory. Just as it depends on the context if "white" is derogatory and just as "gay" can (but doesn't have to) be derogatory, depending on the context.

Besides, the gay community isn't struggling for it's civil rights over here; gays can marry, gays can adopt children and generally, a few points not withstanding, a homosexual couple are regarded, by law, as exactly the same as a heterosexual couple. Now there are still problems, but they are of the same nature as, for example, being a lone father, which in practice still doesn't work out the same as when you're a lone mother.

And people don't have to break "gay" from it's association with homosexuals, it already is. When people say "gay", they mean "feminine guy". Or they mean "stupid", or "ugly" or any other word which often is meant while using something else. Just as people mean "masculine girl" when they say "lesbian", unless they mean something different. When you mean to indicate homosexuality, you should not use the words gay or lesbian, since they don't indicate what you mean. You should use the word "homosexual"; that's what the word's for. Now, that should also go for meanings like "stupid" or "ugly" -- but then, people jumble words like that up all the time. "Gay" and "Lesbian" aren't the only words that get misused in place of "stupid" or "ugly", by far. If you call someone a "retard", you're not saying he's got Down Syndrome, even though that was the original definition of the word. If you call someone an "idiot", you're pointing out a deficiency in their actions, not their IQ.

Every word changes constantly. English isn't the same as it was 200 years ago, and it won't be the same 200 years from now. As such, one should not hold on to original definitions of a word, but what the definition becomes in the minds of the general population. That's also the reason why dictionaries are updated, you know. ;)

edit: It wasn't making much sense due to a few wrong words. Spell checking only goes so far when it suggests the wrong words and you're not paying attention.
 
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Gay is bad if you think it is.

My gay friends don't care if people use the word because they know it doesn't mean anything homophobic and even they say it. It's just a word that society randomly decided to make the meaning "stupid" but not for homophobic reasons.

Then why was the word 'gay' chosen? If it is a random choice why not choose 'kettle' or 'blue' or something else?
 
Gay is bad if you think it is.
And a lot of the population still does think it is bad, which is why I have a problem with people using it in a negative light. To be perfectly frank, straight people shouldn't be appropriating homosexual terms for negative usage anymore than white people who be appropriating black terms for negative usage. To be, this is like watching Randal attempt to reclaim "Porch Monkey" in Clerks II. It's absurd to even be discussing it.
 
Men and women aren't equal all the time.


I remember this chick (her name escapes me.....) who wanted to play with the big boys in the NHL and they turned her down. NO SHIT. She would get destroyed by the guys if she got hit and I would certainly not watch hockey if the guys were avoiding hitting her just because she is a female.

It isn't her fault, it's just that women were built differently from men. We're typically smaller and bit more fragile. They were looking out for her well being. She's get seriously hurt.


Then, you get people like Chyna (wrestler) who's bigger than a lot of guys are and beat the shit out of a ton of guys in the ring.


You have those exeptions but, for the most part, men and women are made different. It's nature.


There are a lot of female things guys can't do and a lot of females who can't do things guys can.


Gay is bad if you think it is.
And a lot of the population still does think it is bad, which is why I have a problem with people using it in a negative light. To be perfectly frank, straight people shouldn't be appropriating homosexual terms for negative usage anymore than white people who be appropriating black terms for negative usage. To be, this is like watching Randal attempt to reclaim "Porch Monkey" in Clerks II. It's absurd to even be discussing it.

You are attaching the word 'gay' to homosexuals alone when it has other meanings.

People need to remember that the word gay doesn't just mean a homosexual person. Everyone is stuck on people using the word to put gays in a bad light when that isn't the sole meaning of the word.
 
Then I shouldn't have used the word "sexism", prejudice and discrimination is wrong no matter on what it's based.
Thank you. :)

In my experience, many people do see women and men as equal. It's the feminists and the "Neanderthals" that don't see women and men as equal; one group wants both genders to be the same (which is physically impossible), and the other wants both to be as far apart from each other as possible (which is mentally impossible). Both are wrong, but they do not constitute a majority of the population.
This purposes only two extremes. First off, using "feminist" in that way is pretty silly because feminist describes a whole spectrum of beliefs and values. Second, you're under cutting your own point. If women and men are not the same then they can't possible be treated the same. Difference will inevitably create different behavior and different expectations.

No, what you state is absurd. A woman who looks frumpy is going to get exactly the amount of shit a guy is going to get who fails in the same country.
Okay, I'll simply lay it out. I'm a male-to-female transsexual. The difference in how people react to your appearance as a male versus a female is like night and day. As a guy you can, say, go to class in the middle of the afternoon without shaving or changing out of your peejays. As a woman, you're going to get stares and get flack for it.

Years ago, guys who cared for their looks were still called "metrosexual". Nowadays, it's the norm. Both women and men are expected to care as much for their looks as for their behavior. If you experience otherwise, perhaps you're not mingling among the right people.
Maybe. They're called Americans. Here, as one poster has already pointed out, a man dressing in such a way as the typical metrosexual is going to be assumed to be gay.

Over here, people do use "nigger". There isn't such a distinction as the United States obviously has, where only black people are allowed to call each other "nigger". Now, it depends on the context if "nigger" is derogatory. Just as it depends on the context if "white" is derogatory and just as "gay" can (but doesn't have to) be derogatory, depending on the context.
But the point still stands. "Nigger," rightfully, has a negative connotation because of its history.

Besides, the gay community isn't struggling for it's civil rights over here; gays can marry, gays can adopt children and generally, a few points not withstanding, a homosexual couple are regarded, by law, as exactly the same as a heterosexual couple. Now there are still problems, but they are of the same nature as, for example, being a lone father, which in practice still doesn't work out the same as when you're a lone mother.
But the GLBT community in the States still is. Why in the fuck should we accept the use of a term that identified us with a negative connotation from a bunch of people who really aren't supporting our civil rights?


You are attaching the word 'gay' to homosexuals alone when it has other meanings.
It hasn't had any other meaning in common language in a very long time.

People need to remember that the word gay doesn't just mean a homosexual person. Everyone is stuck on people using the word to put gays in a bad light when that isn't the sole meaning of the word.
We're stuck on it because -- magically -- the term started showing up as a negative connotation right around the same time gay people started making noise about civil rights. It's absurd to think that "That's gay" evolved out of thin air, absent of culture, and without any connection to the GLBT community coming out of the closet.
 
I never said it evolved out of thin air.

It's plain stupid to say that anyone who says 'that's gay' is homophobic.
 
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