And that's something that goes back to the beginning: a key example is Tomb of the Cybermen - the Doctor effectively lets Haydon, Viner and Toberman (I'm counting him as basically a good guy because of the hints that he's being manipluated or enslaved by Kaftan) get killed because he keeps giving Klieg an extra chance to repent and back off.
I think I hate the Doctor
- Thread starter RoJoHen
- Start date
I honestly don't think it's 95%, if we take into account how "funny" Doctors like Four and Seven were predecessors to the current "dark" Doctors. Even the way the First Doctor left Susan was pretty grim. If we take the length of their runs (7+ yrs for nuWho, 7 years for the Fourth Doctor, and 2 years for the Seventh Doctor), we have at least 16 years of the Doctor with a dark edge -- and that's not counting the argument that the Doctor has had a dark edge since the start of the show.
In a neat twist, I've come to realize that Ten and Eleven are bright and cheery Doctors with hidden dangerous dark sides, but Nine is a dark Doctor with a hidden bright side.
Yeah that's one of the things I loved about Nine, he had this gruff dark exterior yet benath the surface was this gleeful idiot, and for a guy who looked so tough, at times he didn't seem as obviously brave as a lot of Doctors, I wouldn't go quite as far as to call him a coward, but at times he definitely seemed a trifle more concerned for his own well being than many other Doctors.
He would have been in fine company with the First Doctor during the very first adventure.
But I think the Ninth Doctor was suffering from survivor's guilt from having survived the Time War, suggesting perhaps that he had seen (and possibly done) some horrific things that still haunted him from one incarnation to the next, IMO.
The thing I like about the Doctor is his morality, and the fact he is shown to make people better just by showing them the universe and believing in them, seeing through their insecurities into the person beneath.
If you start messing with the dark side of his persona you start getting into the territory that he has a hidden agenda when it comes to companion selecting too, that he's only doing it for his own benefit, not theirs.
No, I prefer to believe in the Doctor as the good, honest, slightly eccentric alien that shows up at random and makes the world a better place, thank you very much
If you start messing with the dark side of his persona you start getting into the territory that he has a hidden agenda when it comes to companion selecting too, that he's only doing it for his own benefit, not theirs.
No, I prefer to believe in the Doctor as the good, honest, slightly eccentric alien that shows up at random and makes the world a better place, thank you very much
That scene with the Doctor was quite remarkable, left me with my jaw open.
I wouldn't go so far as to suggest that he has a dark agenda, just that when selecting companions, he often follows the path of least resistance. I think he brings them because he hates to be alone, not because he hopes to improve their lives. I agree that he does often help them find the best of themselves, but then leaves many feeling abandoned. Then there is Donna. Who does become, to paraphrase, "the most important person in the universe" just to be returned to the same life and state of mind that she was in before she met the doctor. She got nothing out of that relationship, but he needed her.
After Donna makes him, yeah.
Well, the Doctor actually caused the eruption, and he did so because it was a fixed point in time.
Now, that may make his actions necessary -- but there's still something very dark and cowardly about running through a dying city and ignoring the pleas of thousands to reach your escape.
Yeah, but he could have just consigned the Family to their fates -- or to less-harsh punishments -- instead of hiding as John Smith. Instead, he chose to risk the deaths of innocents in order to avoid a direct confrontation -- and his gamble did not pay off.
But it wasn't necessary. He could have saved Old Amy and allowed Amy's history to unfold as t already had. Which, of course, would be just as awful -- and all because he was too irresponsible to bother checking the TARDIS's historical database and discover that that world had a plague problem the year he landed.
The Doctor is not morally perfect. He can be deeply pragmatic rather than idealistic, very dark and selfish when the conditions are right. You know -- like all of us.
ETA:
The thing I like about the Doctor is his morality, and the fact he is shown to make people better just by showing them the universe and believing in them, seeing through their insecurities into the person beneath.
If you start messing with the dark side of his persona you start getting into the territory that he has a hidden agenda when it comes to companion selecting too, that he's only doing it for his own benefit, not theirs.
No, I prefer to believe in the Doctor as the good, honest, slightly eccentric alien that shows up at random and makes the world a better place, thank you very much
I see no reason why both aspects of the character can't be true. He's a mostly good, honest, slightly eccentric alien who shows up at random and makes the world a better place... most of the time. And sometimes, he can be deeply pragmatic, forced to make horrible choices in order to avert worse consequences. And sometimes, he's just a selfish asshole.
Similarly, yeah, he makes people better by showing them the universe and believing in them. He helps people see the wonder of the world and the amazing things they are capable of accomplishing. He also needs his friends because he goes too far without them... and he also wants to be adored, and he'll sometimes not tell them how dangerous his lifestyle is in advance. He believes in them, he loves them, he needs them... but he also avoids them when they leave, sometimes abandons them abruptly for arbitrary reasons, and is often scared to reconnect with them. "Friends? Is that what we're calling the people you collect? Oh, yes, the old man prefers the company of the young..." as the Dream Lord says in "Amy's Choice."
And, of course, he never, ever trusts any of his friends enough to tell them his name.
All of these things can be true. The Doctor doesn't have to be just one thing. That would be very two-dimensional writing.
Probably. We all have our times when we become our worst selves, after all.
Pompeii was a fixed point in time and to change it had dire consequences, and the Doctor caused the eruption to eliminate the Pyroville taskforce that were going to destroy Pompeii and the rest of the world anyhow. I like how Donna and Rory try to call out on the Doctor's spells of pragmatic terribleness mind you.
I think the Doctor was overtly harsh when consigning the Family to eternal torment and considering how violently they lashed out at innocent bystanders they shouldn't have been left at large, but there had to be a good reason why they were so dangerous enough for the Doctor to take drastic steps to run and hide from them in the first place, instead of taking them down right away (and he got the drop on with relative ease when they assumed he was Smith and they were stuck in Edwardian people; what scary forms were they in when they were first chasing the Doctor?).
I think the Doctor was overtly harsh when consigning the Family to eternal torment and considering how violently they lashed out at innocent bystanders they shouldn't have been left at large, but there had to be a good reason why they were so dangerous enough for the Doctor to take drastic steps to run and hide from them in the first place, instead of taking them down right away (and he got the drop on with relative ease when they assumed he was Smith and they were stuck in Edwardian people; what scary forms were they in when they were first chasing the Doctor?).
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I think the best example of the Doctor sometimes being too nice to irredeemably vile people was of course him almost doting on John Simm's Master.
^^^
The Doctor believed he was the last of the Time Lords, and then he discovers that he isn't. It sort of reinforces the long-held (classic series era) idea that the Doctor and the Master were once as close as brothers back on Gallifrey...
The Doctor believed he was the last of the Time Lords, and then he discovers that he isn't. It sort of reinforces the long-held (classic series era) idea that the Doctor and the Master were once as close as brothers back on Gallifrey...
John Simm was actually the first Master that seemed like he could be redeemed. Delgado, the deteriorating wreck, Ainley and Roberts all were obviously not redeemable
Maybe. But he sure hid his face in shame there, now didn't he?
Heck, he had an entire family full of people cowering right in front of his TARDIS, begging to be saved, and he just ignored them until Donna talked him into going after them.
Son-of-Theirs is very clear about why the Doctor hid as John Smith instead of just taking them down right away: "He was being kind." He was trying to find a solution that would lead to the Family just deciding to up and leave in frustration; nothing else.
So, no, he didn't really have a good reason. He took a course of action that he knew carried a risk of innocent people getting hurt because he was being kind to the Family.
The Doctor is a good man, and often he's the best man in a room. He has a clear, strong sense of morality most of the time. But he's not perfect, and sometimes he's just a right bastard.
