I see a flaw in the morality of the crew in Nothing Human
- Thread starter John Vasiliou
- Start date
He wanted to do it; she gave him permission to do so.
He justifies it because he wants to save B'Elanna's life. This episode different than Tuvix, IMO - he wasn't directly causing harm. He was using the knowledge of someone who had caused harm in the past, but it wasn't quite the same thing. I don't think this was an example of hypocrisy on the Doc's part.
The argument he used in Tuvix was that he would do no harm - he was not out to hurt B'Elanna.
He was very adamant that Moset not kill the facehugger when they were trying to remove it.
I recall him saying in Tuvix that he won't go against the wishes of his patient, not about causing any harm. He wouldn't do the procedure because the patient refused treatment. B'Elanna refused treatment and he did it anyway. Besides, they already told us removing the alien could kill both it & B'Elanna. So there was just as much harm in this episode as there was in Tuvix.
Didn't B'Elanna specifically say she didn't want to be saved using knowledge gained by Moset? That's the issue for me, whether the patient has the right to refuse treatment. Janeway decided she didn't, which might be within her rights as captain. I'm not really sure of the moral absolutes in these circumstances.
More disturbing was the revelation that they can make a holographic medical expert with a few commands. There must have been loads of examples where a holographic assistant might have been useful for the Doctor.
More disturbing was the revelation that they can make a holographic medical expert with a few commands. There must have been loads of examples where a holographic assistant might have been useful for the Doctor.
I believe the argument was that B'Elanna as chief engineer was so vital to the safety of the crew that the captain couldn't just let her die.
Also, may as well admit it, when we care about someone we want to keep them around by any means necessary.
I believe the argument was that B'Elanna as chief engineer was so vital to the safety of the crew that the captain couldn't just let her die.
Also, may as well admit it, when we care about someone we want to keep them around by any means necessary.
Well yes of course, and Tom as "next of kin" was demanding she be saved, as anyone would in his position.
It's a wider moral question about whether an individual has the right to refuse treatment, and therefore has a right to die at a time of their own choosing. I honestly don't know where I stand on that. Euthanasia is an incredibly difficult topic, and TNG had a decent go at it with Worf in 'Ethics'.
..and again in "Deathwish".I believe the argument was that B'Elanna as chief engineer was so vital to the safety of the crew that the captain couldn't just let her die.
Also, may as well admit it, when we care about someone we want to keep them around by any means necessary.
Well yes of course, and Tom as "next of kin" was demanding she be saved, as anyone would in his position.
It's a wider moral question about whether an individual has the right to refuse treatment, and therefore has a right to die at a time of their own choosing. I honestly don't know where I stand on that. Euthanasia is an incredibly difficult topic, and TNG had a decent go at it with Worf in 'Ethics'.
I understand where you're coming from.
Euthanasia is a difficult topic and while many have strong opinions on it, IMO it's one of those issues you'll neven know what you'll do until you become personally faced with it.
Good point!
It is slightly different, true. Janeway and Chakotay were only going to die if they stayed on the ship, while B'Elanna would likely die if the alien stayed attached to her body.
They are also alike. Janeway and Chakotay did not want to use the Vidiians because of the danger it posed to the crew and, quite likely, the gruesome way the Vidiians gained their medical expertise.
In both cases, the crew did not want to continue without Janeway and Chakotay--or B'Elanna.
Sometimes, Momma (or Tuvok) knows best.
They are also alike. Janeway and Chakotay did not want to use the Vidiians because of the danger it posed to the crew and, quite likely, the gruesome way the Vidiians gained their medical expertise.
In both cases, the crew did not want to continue without Janeway and Chakotay--or B'Elanna.
Sometimes, Momma (or Tuvok) knows best.
Ouch!Of course, if they'd left him as captain Voyager would have gotten home in 5 years.
In an alternate timeline Admiral Janeway comes back in time to a point before that episode, beams onto the bridge, uses a phaser to disintegrate Captain Janeway and Chakotay, turns to Tuvok and says, "You're Captain now. You all can thank me later," before beaming out (or being wiped out of the time-space continuum, your choice).
And yet in 'Message In A Bottle' they just wind up with a talking Kindle.....
I wonder if B'Elanna considered her human heritage of taking Eugenics to the point of civil collapse when she started modifying her daughter?
Plenty of demons in her own extended history before she starts shitting on other peoples cornflakes... Everytime she uses her "anger" or Klingon guile, well that's just justifying the last two hundred thousand years of the klingon instinct to kill and eat their opponents.
So many "people" turned into Klingon doodoo to mark the rise and fall of empire.
Plenty of demons in her own extended history before she starts shitting on other peoples cornflakes... Everytime she uses her "anger" or Klingon guile, well that's just justifying the last two hundred thousand years of the klingon instinct to kill and eat their opponents.
So many "people" turned into Klingon doodoo to mark the rise and fall of empire.
This ep always stayed with me, and I agree with many of the criticisms here. If the knowledge is out there, nothing can be gained from it being destroyed, no wrongs can be righted, but something good could come from it being available. I did appreciate, even though I disagree with many of Janeway's decisions, that she left the decision to the doctor, but I felt he made the wrong decision. It would have been interesting if in a future ep they needed that knowledge to save someone again, maybe Naomi, and them realizing they had made a mistake and frantically trying to get it back, but the show never really followed up on it.
I'm a huge fan of the Doctor, but this is the one episode it is painful for me to rewatch because I completely disagree with the message the episode was trying to send, and it seemed out of character that the doctor would refuse medical knowledge in the future based on how it was obtained. No doctor should let their feelings about past events affect their ability to save lives.
I'm a huge fan of the Doctor, but this is the one episode it is painful for me to rewatch because I completely disagree with the message the episode was trying to send, and it seemed out of character that the doctor would refuse medical knowledge in the future based on how it was obtained. No doctor should let their feelings about past events affect their ability to save lives.
