I prefered Nemesis

[Tentacle]

Nero, from what we have seen , is not bipolar. On what grounds to you base that?

bipolar pill, crazy pill whatever

the point is nero is chemically unbalanced in the head.

Yes thaey are different - Nero has believable even logical grounds/motivations for his actions. He sees the Vulcans and by association, the Federation as the agents of his suffering through Spock's/The Federations actions/inactions/poor timing.

Freud: "aww classic transference"
How pedestrian.

Shinzon doesn't - his actions are against equally innocent & wronged parties (Picard & The Federation) .

His obsession with Troi was just sick.

Aww yes Shinzon is a more complex character, atleast his not insane in the membrane.

And I do believe your crush on Troi had biased your opininon of shinzon.

But that scene just made shinzon seem more human. Shinzon is a human boy that growup around aliens. He had never seen a human woman, shinzon's sexual fantasies towards troi is only understandable.

 

[GalaxyX]

Ahhh but you see the original intend was to show the difference between shinzon and nero.
You saw how much we can dissect shinzon's motivation

The difference is that Tom Hardy does NOT sell the key points of his character. On paper the Shinzon plot could have worked. On the screen it fell apart. All I saw was a whiny 17 year old bitching about how the "ewil womuwans mistweated him"

Nero as far as the movie goes was simply there to be a bad guy. Nothing else really is said. There's no attempts to play him up as a "tortured but misunderstood soul". He's an asshole simply because that's what the story needed. And Eric Bana played that simple task to perfection.

So to recap, Nemesis wanted us to feel pathos for Shinzon. The story wanted us to sympathize and empathize with his point of view. It failed miserably.

nuStar Trek wanted us to see that Nero was a nutcase with a huuuge ass fuckin' gun, and we feel no sympathy or pathos for a nutcase with a huuuuuge fuckin' gun, we simply want the hero to defeat such a crazy bastard. The movie succeeded perfectly in that.

 

[TEACAKE'S PLEATHER DOME]

Shinzon's motivations are laughable at best. Shinzon had absolutely *zero* reason to target Picard or the Federation for *anything*.
- Romulans cloned him.
- Romulans abandoned him.
- Romulans sent him to the Reman mines as child labor.
- Romulans oppressed him and his Reman friends.

Why is he targeting Picard and the Federation again???

I believe that is all explained in my previous post. If you can not bother to read them, then I can not bother to retype them again.

I did read it. And here it is again:
"Shinzon sees picard as what he could be, a paragon for good, and yet he had to employ methods that were questionable to achieve his goals. So picard to shinzon is an uncomfortable reminder of all the things that he could be, but he isnt. And that thone in shinzon's psyche must be removed for him to be at peace"

Nope, still makes zero sense. He sees someone is better than himself, so to fix that he must exterminate him and his entire species? Are you for real?

It is classic Evil Twin thinking. The Evil Twin must always destroy the Good Twin so that he no longer has his reflection to torment him.

 

[Tentacle]

I did read it. And here it is again:
"Shinzon sees picard as what he could be, a paragon for good, and yet he had to employ methods that were questionable to achieve his goals. So picard to shinzon is an uncomfortable reminder of all the things that he could be, but he isnt. And that thone in shinzon's psyche must be removed for him to be at peace"

Nope, still makes zero sense. He sees someone is better than himself, so to fix that he must exterminate him and his entire species? Are you for real?

eh hello... shinzon is human, he is a clone of picard. Or have you missed that point.

Shinzon, picard, mirror.

Picard to shinzon is an uncomfortable reminder of what he could be come, therefore he have to wipe picard off the face of existence.

 

[Tentacle]

Ahhh but you see the original intend was to show the difference between shinzon and nero.
You saw how much we can dissect shinzon's motivation

The difference is that Tom Hardy does NOT sell the key points of his character. On paper the Shinzon plot could have worked. On the screen it fell apart. All I saw was a whiny 17 year old bitching about how the "ewil womuwans mistweated him"

Nero as far as the movie goes was simply there to be a bad guy. Nothing else really is said. There's no attempts to play him up as a "tortured but misunderstood soul". He's an asshole simply because that's what the story needed. And Eric Bana played that simple task to perfection.

So to recap, Nemesis wanted us to feel pathos for Shinzon. The story wanted us to sympathize and empathize with his point of view. It failed miserably.

nuStar Trek wanted us to see that Nero was a nutcase with a huuuge ass fuckin' gun, and we feel no sympathy or pathos for a nutcase with a huuuuuge fuckin' gun, we simply want the hero to defeat such a crazy bastard. The movie succeeded perfectly in that.

That atleast I would agree with. But atleast it showed that the writers of nemesis had atleast try to put into some through into their villains. Eventhough it is badly acted on screen.

As with this new movie its just brainless, having a nutcase rampaging through the galaxy yelling "Yiiiiii HA!!!!"

 

[Trilliam]

Nero, from what we have seen , is not bipolar. On what grounds to you base that?

bipolar pill, crazy pill whatever

the point is nero is chemically unbalanced in the head.

Yes thaey are different - Nero has believable even logical grounds/motivations for his actions. He sees the Vulcans and by association, the Federation as the agents of his suffering through Spock's/The Federations actions/inactions/poor timing.

Freud: "aww classic transference"
How pedestrian.

Shinzon doesn't - his actions are against equally innocent & wronged parties (Picard & The Federation) .

His obsession with Troi was just sick.

Aww yes Shinzon is a more complex character, atleast his not insane in the membrane.

And I do believe your crush on Troi had biased your opininon of shinzon.

But that scene just made shinzon seem more human. Shinzon is a human boy that growup around aliens. He had never seen a human woman, shinzon's sexual fantasies towards troi is only understandable.

You misunderstand my position re:Troi or any other "rape"/violation scenes. Probably because I'm a woman, I found these scenes to be playing out a puerile domination/power theme - nothing to do with sex. It was bad enough when they did the more subtle "mind violations" with those mind reading aliens during the TV series. It did not make him human, it made him an inhuman pig. Fantasies are one thing, violations of another (which is what he did) are a completely different thing.


Re: Freudian tranference: I've already said I'm studying Psych and have counslling qualifications. You're the one who wanted to psychoanalyse these 2. Freud was the father of psychoanalysis.

And yeah, it was Spock's arriving late/failure. If Nero is targetting Spock, whose actions/inactions caused the situation, how is that transference?

 

[GalaxyX]

You misunderstand my position re:Troi or any other "rape"/violation scenes. Probably because I'm a woman, I found these scenes to be playing out a base male fantasy. It was bad enough when they did the more subtle "mind violations" with those mind reading aliens during the TV series. It did not make him human, it made him an inhuman pig. Fantasies are one thing, violations are a completely different thing.

Only assholes who hate women have rape fantasies. My fantasy is to protect my woman, not hurt her, WTF?

So that aspect of Nemesis was just another imbecile moment in that turd of a movie.

 

[TEACAKE'S PLEATHER DOME]

You misunderstand my position re:Troi or any other "rape"/violation scenes. Probably because I'm a woman, I found these scenes to be playing out a base male fantasy. It was bad enough when they did the more subtle "mind violations" with those mind reading aliens during the TV series. It did not make him human, it made him an inhuman pig. Fantasies are one thing, violations are a completely different thing.

Only assholes who hate women have rape fantasies. My fantasy is to protect my woman, not hurt her, WTF?

So that aspect of Nemesis was just another imbecile moment in that turd of a movie.

I might have had sympathy for Shinzon despite the terrible casting but what happened with Troi blew that possibility out of the water. And no it doesn't have anything to do with being "infatuated with Troi", one of my least favorite characters from my least favorite series. It was HORRIBLE to watch and I was quite disturbed to be watching it with my kid. I wondered how the actress felt about it.. I was angry they put Troi through that.

 

[Trilliam]

You misunderstand my position re:Troi or any other "rape"/violation scenes. Probably because I'm a woman, I found these scenes to be playing out a base male fantasy. It was bad enough when they did the more subtle "mind violations" with those mind reading aliens during the TV series. It did not make him human, it made him an inhuman pig. Fantasies are one thing, violations are a completely different thing.

Only assholes who hate women have rape fantasies. My fantasy is to protect my woman, not hurt her, WTF?

So that aspect of Nemesis was just another imbecile moment in that turd of a movie.

Well put.

 

[Tentacle]

Aww yes Shinzon is a more complex character, atleast his not insane in the membrane.

And I do believe your crush on Troi had biased your opininon of shinzon.

But that scene just made shinzon seem more human. Shinzon is a human boy that growup around aliens. He had never seen a human woman, shinzon's sexual fantasies towards troi is only understandable.

You misunderstand my position re:Troi or any other "rape"/violation scenes. Probably because I'm a woman, I found these scenes to be playing out a puerile domination fantasy. It was bad enough when they did the more subtle "mind violations" with those mind reading aliens during the TV series. It did not make him human, it made him an inhuman pig. Fantasies are one thing, violations are a completely different thing.

Well I understand your objection to the violation scene. But rapes do happen in today's world. As a psych student you must understand that there had always been an association with sex and violence. And the darkness in the male mind to inflect violence coupled with sex.
So for shinzon to violate troi, it just makes him see more human, even it is a dark side of human nature.

I think that even freud would agree that shinzon's fantasy towards troi is natrual. Given all that sexual frustration he build up, growing up around remans. What he did to troi is understandable in that regard. Eventhough I dont condone it.

 

[TEACAKE'S PLEATHER DOME]

I think that even freud would agree that shinzon's fantasy towards troi is natrual. Given all that sexual frustration he build up, growing up around remans. What he did to troi is understandable in that regard. Eventhough I dont condone it.

You mean because the Remans were so ugly when he finally came across a female who was HOT he had to rape her? Yeah, very understandable

 

[Tentacle]

I think that even freud would agree that shinzon's fantasy towards troi is natrual. Given all that sexual frustration he build up, growing up around remans. What he did to troi is understandable in that regard. Eventhough I dont condone it.

You mean because the Remans were so ugly when he finally came across a female who was HOT he had to rape her? Yeah, very understandable

That's a over simplified and laymen way of putting it.
But yes..

 

[Borgminister]

I think that even freud would agree that shinzon's fantasy towards troi is natrual. Given all that sexual frustration he build up, growing up around remans. What he did to troi is understandable in that regard. Eventhough I dont condone it.

You mean because the Remans were so ugly when he finally came across a female who was HOT he had to rape her? Yeah, very understandable

That's a over simplified and laymen way of putting it.
But yes..

He couldn't bring himself to ream a Reman...

 

[Trilliam]

Well I understand your objection to the violation scene. But rapes do happen in today's world. As a psych student you must understand that there had always been an association with sex and violence. And the darkness in the male mind to inflect violence coupled with sex.
So for shinzon to violate troi, it just makes him see more human, even it is a dark side of human nature.

I think that even freud would agree that shinzon's fantasy towards troi is natrual. Given all that sexual frustration he build up, growing up around remans. What he did to troi is understandable in that regard. Eventhough I dont condone it.

I would argue that rape is less about sex, and far more about domination and forcing another to act against their will and in accordance with yours.

Shinzon's inappropriate actions towards Troi would be more to do with lack of appropriate attachment figures modelling appropriate behavioiur (Bowlby, not Freud).

Being female, having a daughter, sisters, nieces, female friends, the spectre of rape tickles at the back of the mind whenever walking alone to my car at night, in isolated areas, when my daughter is travelling on her own.

 

[Tentacle]

I would argue that rape is less about sex, and far more about domination and forcing another to act against their will and in accordance with yours.

Shinzon's inappropriate actions towards Troi would be more to do with lack of appropriate attachment figures modelling appropriate behavioiur (Bowlby, not Freud).

well there are whole papers written on the subject of raping being a form of control, rather than sex.
But I think that we would have to agree that the picard gene, or picard himself is very much in control and wanting control. Thus his personalty is very suited to command a star ship. As for shinzon raping troi, is it more about control than sex? Well I would say its abit of both.

Being female, having a daughter, sisters, nieces, female friends, the spectre of rape tickles at the back of the mind whenever walking alone to my car at night, in isolated areas, when my daughter is travelling on her own.

Well I understand your objection of seeing someone raped. Perhapes a rape is scene shouldnt be in nemesis, without the context and time to explore the issue. but then star trek has always pushed boundaries. I would have to agree it is done distastfully without more time devoted to the consequences.
But to deny that dark side of human nature is folly, only by exploring it so that we can understand it, and prevent it from happening to anyone else in the future.

 

[Trilliam]

From my perspective, it was done for the gratuitous "titillation"/shock factor and had no place in the overall scheme of this movie.

ST has always "touched" then danced off, never dealing with the aftermath of trauma. The closest they came was in "Family" and then they only paid lip-service to PTSD etc.

Picard is about "self-control", not dominion over others.

 

[VOODOOXI]

Say what you want about it atleast it was a Star Trek movie, it had the feel to it that XI is missing.

Nemesis was a tired movie... Star Trek XI is a superior film in every way.

 

[Tentacle]

From my perspective, it was done for the gratuitous "titillation"/shock factor and had no place in the overall scheme of this movie.

ST has always "touched" then danced off, never dealing with the aftermath of trauma. The closest they came was in "Family" and then they only paid lip-service to PTSD etc.

Picard is about "self-control", not dominion over others.

Well if it makes you feel better, troi did use the psychic link to blow up the scimitar. A validating moment for any victim to get back at their attackers.

 

[Trilliam]

The psychic link thing is one the most overused themes/tricks in ST.

Plus it brings Troi to the same place that Nero is (and you are putting down).

 

[saddestmoon]

Nemesis: Opens with a dune-buggy scene...

Nuff said really.