I prefered Nemesis

[Trilliam]

Everyone hated the dune buggy scene, but let me ask you how is that different from the sport car fell off the edgy scene?

The problem with the dune buggy scene was that the director wanted to add in something "cool" fill with action to attract the action junkies. The whole scene just didnt jive with the rest of the tone of the movie. Now if rest of the nemesis would be packed with action/shooting/driving scene all of those that love Star Trek XI would of loved nemesis.

It violated the Prime Directive? You know - no contact with pre-warp societies?

well that would require the rest of the audience to know what the prime directive is. That scene is obviously geared towards the non fans of trek.

It's a pretty basic tenet of ST esp the TNG era, of which this was suposed ot tbe the Swan Song. Don't kid yourself, this was suposed to be for the "initiated".

Picard is a target because he is such a noted officer. I dont believe Shinzon wanted to destroy the whole federation, just Earth. He wanted to conquer the rest of the federation. To destroy earth is shinzon's attemp to wipe all humanity from himself. Its easily understandable given, shinzon hates being a human, and sees himself as reman.

Following that logic that Shinzon identifed as Reman, then his target shouldhave been the oppressive Romulans.

So spock failed on purpose, he could of easily given this information to the romlans thus avoiding the distruction of his planet. And given his advance mining ship from the future. He could of given it to the romulans and having them conquer the federation. Going after someone who failed is ludicrous at best.

I didn't say that Spock failed on purpose. I said that was the probable perception from the Romulan perspective - whether it was warranted or not. Spock is the "face" of the failure

Especially when nero got into the pass he have a chance to safe his wife and all romulas, but that doesnt seem to be his concern. He is fixated on making the firefighter pay for even attempting to save his family.

Um, he's lost his mind? He's working with his own disordered "logic" What don't you get? Plus they have no control over where they "arrive". How is he going to save his family, let alone that they are now in an alternate reality how many years earlier in which his wife and child may not even exist yet?

So you would rather have a villain that's lost his mind and obivously crazy. Thus any logical rationalization of his motivation is not need.

VS

A villain whos logical conflicted, and you can even sympathize with.


So a crazy comic book villain is better than a believable relateable villain.

We're trying to analyse a ficticious 24th century alien's motivations, by 21st Century human standards and mores? Even if he did exist, his cultural and historical milieu would give as different set of social rules and mores.

 

[TEACAKE'S PLEATHER DOME]

hmmm there does seem to be alot of iconic imagery in this new movie isnt it?

Is that why so many people can relate to this movie?
The blatant use of iconic imagery and cultural references?
Is that why Scary Movie is so successful? *

Doesn't really have the same emotional response (especially in certain age groups) as the FJ Holden (built in the 50s).

Well none of the "iconic imagery" meant anything to me, if by iconic imagery the poster means "stuff we have IRL". Most of it irritated me. I had no idea what the car was until I read it here and as I have zero interest in cars there is no iconic car they could have included that I would have noticed, much less cared about.

However I do think this film was stuffed with iconic imagery that meant a lot to me. Saurian brandy bottles. Scenes and lines that dovetailed with TAS's Yesteryear (very WOW moment). The use of the apple. A tribble I missed in my first viewing. And on and on.. that is MY iconic imagery and Budweiser can go suck itself.

 

[Trilliam]

hmmm there does seem to be alot of iconic imagery in this new movie isnt it?

Is that why so many people can relate to this movie?
The blatant use of iconic imagery and cultural references?
Is that why Scary Movie is so successful? *

Doesn't really have the same emotional response (especially in certain age groups) as the FJ Holden (built in the 50s).

Well none of the "iconic imagery" meant anything to me, if by iconic imagery the poster means "stuff we have IRL". Most of it irritated me. I had no idea what the car was until I read it here and as I have zero interest in cars there is no iconic car they could have included that I would have noticed, much less cared about.

However I do think this film was stuffed with iconic imagery that meant a lot to me. Saurian brandy bottles. Scenes and lines that dovetailed with TAS's Yesteryear (very WOW moment). The use of the apple. A tribble I missed in my first viewing. And on and on.. that is MY iconic imagery and Budweiser can go suck itself.

Now had there been bottles of Margaret River sauv blanc, big plates of prawns on the bar bench, Midnight Oil or AC/DC on the jukebox.....

 

[TEACAKE'S PLEATHER DOME]

hmmm there does seem to be alot of iconic imagery in this new movie isnt it?

Is that why so many people can relate to this movie?
The blatant use of iconic imagery and cultural references?
Is that why Scary Movie is so successful? *

Doesn't really have the same emotional response (especially in certain age groups) as the FJ Holden (built in the 50s).

Well none of the "iconic imagery" meant anything to me, if by iconic imagery the poster means "stuff we have IRL". Most of it irritated me. I had no idea what the car was until I read it here and as I have zero interest in cars there is no iconic car they could have included that I would have noticed, much less cared about.

However I do think this film was stuffed with iconic imagery that meant a lot to me. Saurian brandy bottles. Scenes and lines that dovetailed with TAS's Yesteryear (very WOW moment). The use of the apple. A tribble I missed in my first viewing. And on and on.. that is MY iconic imagery and Budweiser can go suck itself.

Now had there been bottles of Margaret River sauv blanc, big plates of prawnsonthe bar bench.....

Then it would have sucked so bad I would cry.

There's a reason why that bloated "epic" Australia did so poorly. This stuff is CHEESY. I refer you to the Simpsons go to Australia ep. That is what would have happened if Trek had decided to have an Aussie crew member which I hope to gods never occurs!!!!!!!

 

[Tentacle]

Following that logic that Shinzon identifed as Reman, then his target shouldhave been the oppressive Romulans.

He did lash out at the romulans, Assassinate the senate, becoming the ruler of romulus. Liberated his reman brothers. But its hard to get away from the fact that he looks human, he is human. Therefore he hates the human part of himself. So wiping Earth off the face of the map is designed to cleanse himself of his humanity.

So spock failed on purpose, he could of easily given this information to the romlans thus avoiding the distruction of his planet. And given his advance mining ship from the future. He could of given it to the romulans and having them conquer the federation. Going after someone who failed is ludicrous at best.

I didn't say that Spock failed on purpose. I said that was the probable perception from the Romulan perspective - whether it was warranted or not. Spock is the "face" of the failure

like I said Going after someone who failed is ludicrous at best.

VS

A villain whos logical conflicted, and you can even sympathize with.


So a crazy comic book villain is better than a believable relateable villain.

We're trying to analyse a ficticious 24th century alien's motivations, by 21st Century human standards and mores? Even if he did exist, his cultural and historical milieu would give as different set of social rules and mores.

But that is the genius behind Nemesis. With cloneing technology at our doorsteps. This movie raises the question, how would you clone feel about being cloned?

 

[Trilliam]

Then it would have sucked so bad I would cry.

There's a reason why that bloated "epic" Australia did so poorly. This stuff is CHEESY. I refer you to the Simpsons go to Australia ep. That is what would have happened if Trek had decided to have an Aussie crew member which I hope to gods never occurs!!!!!!!

Never saw "Australia". For the 6months before it was released, every time you boarded a Qantas domestic flight, it was shoved down our throats. (not the mention that Nicole Kidman cant act her way out of a wet paper bag). The name Baz Lurman (sp) makes me twitch.


Re: the Simpson in Aus - they could have at least have the "Aussies" sound like Aussies instead of New Zealanders

 

[Trilliam]

We're trying to analyse a ficticious 24th century alien's motivations, by 21st Century human standards and mores? Even if he did exist, his cultural and historical milieu would give as different set of social rules and mores. But that is the genius behind Nemesis. With cloneing technology at our doorsteps. This movie raises the question, how would you clone feel about being cloned?

I'm anti-embryonic stem cell research. Then again I'm anti IVF (not the morality) but the effect on couples when the "last resort" fails. I'm somewhat "iffiy" about prenatal diagnotics too, as it is the slippery slope. At what point do we say stop? At what point are we interfering with the long-term survival fitness of our species to the point that it will be detrimental for some reason we dont' understand? That things we see now as imperfections/defective, are in reality our species continued evolutionm and we're stuffing it up? Growing humans as spare parts?

 

[TEACAKE'S PLEATHER DOME]

But that is the genius behind Nemesis. With cloneing technology at our doorsteps. This movie raises the question, how would you clone feel about being cloned?

Very pissy.

 

[Tentacle]

^^^cue shinzon and his motivation.

 

[Trilliam]

^^^cue shinzon and his motivation.

To destroy those who created him - the Romulans, not Picard who was as innocent in this regard as Shinzon himself. That's where it makes no sense. Picard didn't give up his DNA knowingly or willingly, didn't consent to having his DNA manipulated in any way. Nor was the Federation involved in anyway. The Federation has strict rules about genetic engineering. Hence, Shinzon's anger and actions were misdirected.

 

[Tentacle]

^^^cue shinzon and his motivation.

To destroy those who reacted him - the Romulans, not Picard who was as innocent in this regard as Shinzon himself. That's where it makes no sense. Picard didn't give up his DNA knowingly or willingly, didn't consent to having his DNA manipulated in any way. Nor was the Federation involved in anyway. The Federation has strict rules about genetic engineering. Hence, Shinzon's anger and actions were misdirected.

Jealousy had something to do with it as well. Shinzon sees picard as what he could be, a paragon for good, and yet he had to employ methods that were questionable to achieve his goals. So picard to shinzon is an uncomfortable reminder of all the things that he could be, but he isnt. And that thone in shinzon's psyche must be removed for him to be at peace.

 

[Trilliam]

Jealousy had something to do with it as well. Shinzon sees picard as what he could be, a paragon for good, and yet he had to employ methods that were questionable to achieve his goals. So picard to shinzon is an uncomfortable reminder of all the things that he could be, but he isnt. And that thone in shinzon's psyche must be removed for him to be at peace.

How is Shinzon's jealousy any better a motivator than Nero's grief-driven insanity & revenge motive?

 

[Hyperspace05]

Shinzon's motivations are laughable at best. Shinzon had absolutely *zero* reason to target Picard or the Federation for *anything*.
- Romulans cloned him.
- Romulans abandoned him.
- Romulans sent him to the Reman mines as child labor.
- Romulans oppressed him and his Reman friends.

Why is he targeting Picard and the Federation again???

 

[Tentacle]

How is Shinzon's jealousy any better a motivator than Nero's grief-driven insanity & revenge motive?

Ok lets see an insane villain (typical of a comic book MAD scientist)

VS

a tormented villain ( relatable, tragic, missunderstooded)

Even comic books these days are trying to get away from that insane villain mold.

 

[Tentacle]

Shinzon's motivations are laughable at best. Shinzon had absolutely *zero* reason to target Picard or the Federation for *anything*.
- Romulans cloned him.
- Romulans abandoned him.
- Romulans sent him to the Reman mines as child labor.
- Romulans oppressed him and his Reman friends.

Why is he targeting Picard and the Federation again???

I believe that is all explained in my previous post. If you can not bother to read them, then I can not bother to retype them again.

 

[TEACAKE'S PLEATHER DOME]

How is Shinzon's jealousy any better a motivator than Nero's grief-driven insanity & revenge motive?

Ok lets see an insane villain (typical of a comic book MAD scientist)

VS

a tormented villain ( relatable, tragic, missunderstooded)

Even comic books these days are trying to get away from that insane villain mold.

They are both total dickwads motivated by their selfish needs to make themselves FEEL better.

 

[Trilliam]

How is Shinzon's jealousy any better a motivator than Nero's grief-driven insanity & revenge motive?

Ok lets see an insane villain (typical of a comic book MAD scientist)

VS

a tormented villain ( relatable, tragic, missunderstooded)

Even comic books these days are trying to get away from that insane villain mold.

I don't see Shinzon as relatable,
Misunderstood - What was there to understand? I get the Nature vs Nurture debate - this was a particularly poorly drawn example, oif that was what they were going for.

Tragic -nup didn't see him that way either-

After the first vicarious sexual assault on Troi - I wanted to circ Shinzon with s bat'leth

 

[Tentacle]

How is Shinzon's jealousy any better a motivator than Nero's grief-driven insanity & revenge motive?

Ok lets see an insane villain (typical of a comic book MAD scientist)

VS

a tormented villain ( relatable, tragic, missunderstooded)

Even comic books these days are trying to get away from that insane villain mold.

I don't see Shinzon as relatable,
Misunderstood - What was there to understand? I get the Nature vs Nurture debate - this was a particularly poorly drawn example, oif that was what they were going for.

Tragic -nup didn't see him that way either-

After the first vicarious sexual assault on Troi - I wanted to circ Shinzon with s bat'leth

Ahhh but you see the original intend was to show the difference between shinzon and nero.
You saw how much we can dissect shinzon's motivation. Therefore he has a motive even though you might disagree with his motive.

As for Nero he can be cured with a pill for bi-polar disorder.

 

[Trilliam]

Ok lets see an insane villain (typical of a comic book MAD scientist)

VS

a tormented villain ( relatable, tragic, missunderstooded)

Even comic books these days are trying to get away from that insane villain mold.

I don't see Shinzon as relatable,
Misunderstood - What was there to understand? I get the Nature vs Nurture debate - this was a particularly poorly drawn example, oif that was what they were going for.

Tragic -nup didn't see him that way either-

After the first vicarious sexual assault on Troi - I wanted to circ Shinzon with s bat'leth

Ahhh but you see the original intend was to show the difference between shinzon and nero.
You saw how much we can dissect shinzon's motivation. Therefore he has a motive even though you might disagree with his motive.

As for Nero he can be cured with a pill for bi-polar disorder.

Nero, from what we have seen , is not bipolar. On what grounds to you base that?

Yes they are different - Nero has believable even logical grounds/motivations for his actions. He sees the Vulcans and by association, the Federation as the agents of his suffering through Spock's/The Federations actions/inactions/poor timing.

We can anaylse Nero's actions via the stages of grief and loss , and how the stages can be arrested. He's not only dealing with the loss of his prime attachment figure (wife) but his wider family, support structures, homeworld etc. We can look at the damage to his self-image and self-concept through not being able to protect his family. Survivor guilt.
Shinzon doesn't - his actions are against equally innocent & wronged parties (Picard & The Federation) .

His obsession with Troi was just sick.

 

[Hyperspace05]

Shinzon's motivations are laughable at best. Shinzon had absolutely *zero* reason to target Picard or the Federation for *anything*.
- Romulans cloned him.
- Romulans abandoned him.
- Romulans sent him to the Reman mines as child labor.
- Romulans oppressed him and his Reman friends.

Why is he targeting Picard and the Federation again???

I believe that is all explained in my previous post. If you can not bother to read them, then I can not bother to retype them again.

I did read it. And here it is again:
"Shinzon sees picard as what he could be, a paragon for good, and yet he had to employ methods that were questionable to achieve his goals. So picard to shinzon is an uncomfortable reminder of all the things that he could be, but he isnt. And that thone in shinzon's psyche must be removed for him to be at peace"

Nope, still makes zero sense. He sees someone is better than himself, so to fix that he must exterminate him and his entire species? Are you for real?