I miss the "clever klingons" from TOS...

[Neutral Zone]

Not only were the Klingons from TOS more intelligent but they also had a sense of humour. Just look at the 'Trouble with Tribbles' there was some excellent comedy and an old fashioned bar fight. Later Klingons lost their whole personality, they acted more like spoilt brats than warriors!

 

[Agenda]

I personally like the new Klingons. Yeah, the whole 'honor' thing got kind of tired on occasion, but it's a rich mythology that's resulted in a lot of great Star Trek episodes.

 

[Kegg]

Let's start a "Bring Back Kor" campaign today...

...actually it's surprising we never saw him again in TOS. I always thought he was the best one of the lot...

Kor was brought back.

As a Dahar Master, an honourable old Klingon drunk.

Er, yeah.

I wouldn't mind seeing him as the Klingon antagonist of one of the new movies, though really, they could just as well do a new Klingon.

But movies are made for a general audience, and it would have taken too much explanation as to why Sarek, Saavik, young Spock and T'Lar in ST III had pointed ears and slanty eyebrows and were the good guys, and yet the crew of the Bird of Prey looked so similar but were the bad guys.

Star Trek managed fine.

I've heard the logic was simply the Klingons were a better known and more iconic Trek villain race, which is certainly true.

 

[Nerys Myk]

Let's start a "Bring Back Kor" campaign today...

...actually it's surprising we never saw him again in TOS. I always thought he was the best one of the lot...

Kang and Koloth were originally written as Kor. When Colicos was unavailable, they changed the names.

 

[Nerys Ghemor]

It's been noted that in TNG the Romulans were aggressive thugs and the Klingons the honor-bound warriors, a near total reversal from their characterizations in TOS.

Yep. I would have preferred that both would have stayed the way that they originally were.

I agree. While Worf seems to take his honor seriously and reminds me more of what I know of TOS Romulans (very, very disciplined), most Klingons seem like Norsemen to me (not samurai). And tell me Lursa and B'etor don't look like Viking shield maidens + cleavage!

If you want TOS Klingons in the later series...we Cardassians have inherited their legacy.

Oh, and I also loved Gorkon and Chang. Intelligent men, both.

 

[Timewalker]

Let's start a "Bring Back Kor" campaign today...

...actually it's surprising we never saw him again in TOS. I always thought he was the best one of the lot...

I read that he was to be a recurring villain in the 4th season. Of course, there was no fourth season.

I hated Worf. He's the character that ate not only TNG, but also DS9 - and utterly ruined any enjoyment I ever had of those series.

Thank goodness TPTB never figured out a way to include him in Voyager!

 

[Nerys Myk]

Since TOS Romulans only appeared on screen twice, its hard to get a read on them. Both Commanders seemed alright, but were they typical of the Romulan mind set? The BOT Commnader didn't seem to think so. He was a tired disillusioned man who had seen too many comrades die for the Praetors "glory'. The younger generation, typified by Decius, were all for "glory" and snitching on "traitors". The EI Commander also seemed driven by "glory" and tried to turn Spock. She was quited pleased when Spock came over to the Romulan side. (and none to happy to learn he had faked it). The only time honor comes up is when the EI Commander asks Spock to swear on his honor as a Vulcan.

"Enterprise Incident" is kind of an odd episode anyway. At times is seems to pretend that "Balance of Terror" never happened.

 

[Hartzilla2007]

And now it makes sense why they called it a Klingon "bird of prey" in the film when that term was used for Romulan ships in TOS.

And... the Klingon Neutral Zone.

This is from a script premise called "Return to Genesis". In that, it's Romulans trying to get the secret of Genesis - and Spock's spirit returns as a kind of vampiric creature who appears in mirrors.

The Klingon Neutral Zone was established in TWOK during the Kobayashi maru..

The Klingon Neutral Zone was established in TWOK during the Kobayashi maru..

...which further blurred the line by stating that they were in the Gamma Hydra system, which was established in "The Deadly Years" as being near the Romulan Neutral Zone. Perhaps we're supposed to think the Klingon and Romulan neutral zones are back-to-back? Geez, what a rotten neighborhood.

I heard somewhere on this site that the Klingon ships in TWOK were supposted to be Romulan, but they decided to use stock footage of klingon ships from TMP to save money instead of building models for new ships.

 

[TheKeeper]

Yep. I would have preferred that both would have stayed the way that they originally were.

I agree. While Worf seems to take his honor seriously and reminds me more of what I know of TOS Romulans (very, very disciplined), most Klingons seem like Norsemen to me (not samurai). And tell me Lursa and B'etor don't look like Viking shield maidens + cleavage!

If you want TOS Klingons in the later series...we Cardassians have inherited their legacy.

Oh, and I also loved Gorkon and Chang. Intelligent men, both.

I just meant that Klingon culture saw itself as samurai-like (honor above everything), but you're right that the reality was more like berserker Vikings. Part of Worf's big character arc in TNG was getting to see other Klingons failing to live up to their own press, i.e. all those ideals he learned second-hand while being raised among humans.

 

[Therin of Andor]

...actually it's surprising we never saw him again in TOS. I always thought he was the best one of the lot...

Ah, but Kor was intended to be a recurring character. Sadly, John Colicos was unable to accept the role in "The Trouble With Tribbles" - and Koloth was born.

The next year, they tried again with "The Day of the Dove". Again, John Colicos was busy and the role was renamed Kang.

 

[Therin of Andor]

But movies are made for a general audience, and it would have taken too much explanation as to why Sarek, Saavik, young Spock and T'Lar in ST III had pointed ears and slanty eyebrows and were the good guys, and yet the crew of the Bird of Prey looked so similar but were the bad guys.

Star Trek managed fine.

Sure, but they also made sure that Nero and his crew had a strikingly different look to the Vulcans, which helps the general public understand what's going on.

So ST III had several choices: switch the Romulans for Klingons (thus saving budget dollars on the costumes, because a huge Klingon wardrobe was already available from TMP), risk confusing the general audience by introducing them to a Vulcan-like enemy race, or, change the Romulans' makeup in some strikingly different way (and ignore the Romulan/Vulcan backstory because the main thrust had to be restoring Spock by the end of the film).

 

[Kegg]

It'd be simple to say that TNG onwards Klingons are Samurai Vikings. It's not an either-or, they just mostly draw from those ideas - dressing like samurai and having their reverence for a blade and a rigid sense of caste and honour, but also having Valhalla and brawny Norseman goodness.

Sure, but they also made sure that Nero and his crew had a strikingly different look to the Vulcans, which helps the general public understand what's going on.

While getting rid of the identifier that seperated the two races in TNG, curiously enough. Given all the brouhaha Klingon foreheads have gotten over the years I've never quite wrapped my head around the total indifference on the subject when concerning Romulans.

 

[Therin of Andor]

I've never quite wrapped my head around the total indifference on the subject when concerning Romulans.

What else could they do? Write another two-part episode explaining how some Romulans who left Vulcan centuries before had forehead ridges, and others had flatter foreheads?

That Spock was able to wander about Romulus without forehead ridges in "Unification" (TNG) implied that it was no big deal. Sometimes you really don't need explanations.

In any case, the "Star Trek" (2009) Romulans do have forehead appliances, but the ridges are quite subtle, closer to the bridge of the nose, almost reminiscent of Remans.

 

[Kegg]

What else could they do? Write another two-part episode explaining how some Romulans who left Vulcan centuries before had forehead ridges, and others had flatter foreheads?

I meant the fanbase. The Klingon forehead debate became iconic to the point that even DS9 riffed on it, but the Romulans got very little traction on the topic. I've seldom seen debates about it, while I remember the volumnious discourses on the Klingons of old.

 

[Therin of Andor]

the Romulans got very little traction on the topic. I've seldom seen debates about it, while I remember the volumnious discourses on the Klingons of old.

Did too many people (other than me) worry about the differences in Andorians from TOS/TAS to TMP?

And then ST IV, TNG and ENT?

 

[Kegg]

Did too many people (other than me) worry about the differences in Andorians

Romulans were a major antagonist race in TNG, played some key episodes in TOS, and had notable appearances on the other shows.

Andorians weren't given a story focusing on them until ENT and scarcely appeared in post-TAS material, nor did their basic design change in as fundamental a way like the random addition of ridges. They'd be more comparable to the way the Bolian makeup evolved.

 

[Therin of Andor]

Andorians weren't given a story focusing on them until ENT and scarcely appeared in post-TAS material, nor did their basic design change in as fundamental a way like the random addition of ridges.

For me, though, as an Andorian fan in 1980, trying to justify Andorians with cupped antennae from the crown in TOS and TAS, and Andorians with thin, tendrill-like antennae coming out of a ridged forehead, it was a conundrum. There's a fan out there for every quirky aspect of ST.

I recall some people being angry about TNG's changes to the Romulans but, remembering the number of Romulan crew in TOS who wore helmets covering their foreheads, it wasn't hard to imagine that the two forehead types had co-existed all along. Heck, there are human beings in the 21st century with rather Neanderthal foreheads. (I also remember ST V director, William Shatner, being rather dismissive of the makeup change, mentioning that his Romulan would not have TNG ridges.)

By 1987, fans were fairly accepting of the Klingons' makeup changes. We'd had from 1979 to get used to it. The debate seemed to grow to a head after Kor, Kang and Koloth turned up in DS9's "Blood Oath" with the bumpy foreheads.

 

[FormerLurker]

Me, I never accepted that the 'black' Andorians were the deathly pale telepathic ones(I forget what they're called), and see the difference/division as being where the antennae spring from, the crown or the forehead. I would like to have seen this addressed.

 

[Therin of Andor]

Me, I never accepted that the 'black' Andorians were the deathly pale telepathic ones(I forget what they're called), and see the difference/division as being where the antennae spring from, the crown or the forehead. I would like to have seen this addressed.

The Aenar.

When you read a regular novel, or watch a TV soap opera, do they take time out to explain where all the different human clines came from?

 

[Timo]

I never understood where this "Romulans are honorable" thing came from.

In all three of their TOS appearances, Romulans are scheming bastards, totally devoid of what one would call honor in a human society. First, they perform a cowardly sneak attack with an invisible ship - and are busy stabbing each other in the back during the mission! Then they hide in warships in the Neutral Zone where they ambush a mission of mercy and pound it with their weapons, oblivious to the hails of the victim. And then they are seen operating ships that look like Klingon ones, no doubt to some devious purpose, and again they backstab and scheme and bribe and betray.

Compared to these folks, every TOS Klingon was downright honorable. And even if Kras from "Friday's Child" or the goon from "Elaan of Troyius" were using sneaky tactics, they at least fought "honorably" once challenged. Kor showed typical warrior honor through and through, keeping his promises, respecting his enemies, showing mercy towards those who fumbled and grace in defeat. Koloth was nothing but polite and gracious, and readily withdrew when his subterfuge was exposed. Kang was the very model of the modern Klingon general, not a step behind Martok or Worf in this warrior honor thing.

Kruge would seem to logically follow this continuum of Klingon personalities: a strong leader with strong ideas on honor, even if constantly using guile and deception to defeat his enemies, and showing contempt only to those who couldn't hold their own against him.

In turn, very little from the books of Diane Duane sounds true when the continuum of Romulan behavior is considered. Duane seems to be describing a lost world, a bygone time whose disappearance the commander in "Balance of Terror" can only lament...

Timo Saloniemi