I love Star Trek: TNG!

[M'rk son of Mogh]

The finer points of the show?
This started with Geordi not having a long term relationship because he was black. Well, watching the show objectively, not a single other character in that show did either. Except Worf with Deanna. The black character and actor. But of course, that doesn't count, make-up or something that doesn't make sense because it doesn't help the argument.

Then we go to DS9. How many solid long -term relationships were there? 4. Sisko, Dax and Worf, O'Brian, and Kira and Odo. That's literally even. But no, Sisko doesn't count because some new rule says blacks can't date the same or something like that, and again, black actor playing black alien Worf doesn't count because of some reason.

It's like people are trying to stir a pot about a show that was about characters that tried as hard as they could not to. The point and the lessons of the show are completely missed. Finer points AND broad points.

 

[Joel_Kirk]

The finer points of the show?
This started with Geordi not having a long term relationship because he was black. Well, watching the show objectively, not a single other character in that show did either. Except Worf with Deanna. The black character and actor. But of course, that doesn't count, make-up or something that doesn't make sense because it doesn't help the argument.

And, the point is missed again. Why does a black actor have to be under heavy make-up to have a long term relationship with a non-black actress? He shouldn't.

As far as TNG characters who've had long-term relationships? Well, we've had Miles O'Brien in a prominent wedding and eventual long-term relationship with Keiko. The show also plays on the off-and-on relationship between Riker and Troi. Yet, each do have 'flings' throughout the series.

Then we go to DS9. How many solid long -term relationships were there? 4. Sisko, Dax and Worf, O'Brian, and Kira and Odo. That's literally even. But no, Sisko doesn't count because some new rule says blacks can't date the same or something like that, and again, black actor playing black alien Worf doesn't count because of some reason.

I don't know about that rule. However, blacks should be able to date (and have strong long-term relationships) across the spectrum like other non-black characters.

If the show was really progressive: Picard would have been gay man opposite a black, Asian, or non-white Latino/Hispanic; Riker would have been dating a black woman; Dr. Crusher would be in a deep serious relationship opposite a black man or East/Central/Southeast Asian man; Deanna Troi in a relationship with the alien Worf (as we had) and Wesley would be thinking about a sex-change to, well, Leslie Crusher and probably hold a crush on Geordi....and probably wants to 'make it happen' once that sex-change occurs. Lastly, Yar would have been a strong female character who eventually gets her own prominent starship and has men pining for her even though her first love is her ship.

It's like people are trying to stir a pot about a show that was about characters that tried as hard as they could not to. The point and the lessons of the show are completely missed. Finer points AND broad points.

Or, its about people from different demographics and groups talking about the progress (or lack of progress) of a show that supposedly champions progress.

As BillJ brought out earlier, the show is 25 years old. And, you will have differing opinions on TNG like people have differing opinions on TOS or any of the other spinoffs and films. And, these differing opinions will come from various racial backgrounds, cultures, sexual orientations, etc.

 

[BillJ]

As BillJ brought out earlier, the show is 25 years old. And, you will have differing opinions on TNG like TOS has differing opinions on its depictions of various peoples and ideas.

Honestly, I don't know which side of the fence I come down on. But I don't mind the questions being asked. For me, the questions can help as much as harm any memories of the show and can make for better shows going forward.

 

[Joel_Kirk]

As BillJ brought out earlier, the show is 25 years old. And, you will have differing opinions on TNG like TOS has differing opinions on its depictions of various peoples and ideas.

Honestly, I don't know which side of the fence I come down on. But I don't mind the questions being asked. For me, the questions can help as much as harm any memories of the show and can make for better shows going forward.

I think the Star Wars boards are currently going through the same thing in regards to retrospective observations. Right now, it looks like we may have a black lead in John Boyega, and I'm sure there may be some romantic stuff going on between his onscreen character, Finn, and Daisy Ridley's character, Rey. And, Star Wars is not known for having many black people - or many non-whites - in its universe. (Not too mention, this is something - people questioning the lack of diversity - that had Lucas add Lando for Empire Strikes Back. Now, whether or not Lando is a positive addition is, of course, up to debate).

While I don't think discussion may harm the SW universe, since those movies are pretty popular and will get more popular come next December, it is giving a retrospect on how far the production for SW films has come.

 

[M'rk son of Mogh]

I don't know about that rule. However, blacks should be able to date (and have strong long-term relationships) across the spectrum like other non-black characters.

Okay, I'm seeing your points on most of these (though to adhere to what you want, you basically doubled the cast and made an obvious checklist of characters that doesn't look at all natural in a single group setting, but that's just me), but this is the one that I don't get at all.

Why is it wrong to date within your race as well? Why does it have to be made into a negative? Why aren't we happy Sisko found Kasidy Yates in any form instead of saying "According to my checklist, this isn't progressive enough, you're supposed to like someone else" (and then I will wonder if you do this to people in real life. My friends across the street in Detroit might take a bit of offence to this...)

 

[M'rk son of Mogh]

I think the Star Wars boards are currently going through the same thing in regards to retrospective observations. Right now, it looks like we may have a black lead in John Boyega, and I'm sure there may be some romantic stuff going on between his onscreen character, Finn, and Daisy Ridley's character, Rey. And, Star Wars is not known for having many black people - or many non-whites - in its universe. (Not too mention, this is something - people questioning the lack of diversity - that had Lucas add Lando for Empire Strikes Back. Now, whether or not Lando is a positive addition is, of course, up to debate).

While I don't think discussion may harm the SW universe, since those movies are pretty popular and will get more popular come next December, it is giving a retrospect on how far the production for SW films has come.

Just so it doesn't seem like I'm totally opposing everything you're saying, on this I'm 100% in agreement with you.

Even as a kid, that Star Wars cast looked noticeably pretty generic and white. I'll say adding Lando was a good call (he came through in the end!), but that opening shot of the new trailer was a great thing for that universe far far away.

 

[Joel_Kirk]

I don't know about that rule. However, blacks should be able to date (and have strong long-term relationships) across the spectrum like other non-black characters.

Okay, I'm seeing your points on most of these (though to adhere to what you want, you basically doubled the cast and made an obvious checklist of characters that doesn't look at all natural in a single group setting, but that's just me), but this is the one that I don't get at all.

Why is it wrong to date within your race as well? Why does it have to be made into a negative? Why aren't we happy Sisko found Kasidy Yates in any form instead of saying "According to my checklist, this isn't progressive enough, you're supposed to like someone else" (and then I will wonder if you do this to people in real life. My friends across the street in Detroit might take a bit of offence to this...)

Ah, but I never said it was wrong to date within one's own race. However, it does become a glaring issue when you have everyone else in the cast 'mixing it up' yet the black characters are regulated to primarily dating within their own race; their own kind.

Why should black people be separate in regards to interracial dating? Why should the black characters have separate rules?

Why isn't that question - "What is wrong dating within your own race?" -posed to the Asian demographic? Again, there was zero issue putting Colm Meaney and Rosalind Chao together, and zero issue with having fans - very possible a majority of white fans - pair up Hoshi Sato and either of the three white male leads of Enterprise. Furthermore, there was zero issue with having Nurse Ogawa opposite a white male.

We never saw a young Asian couple onscreen in Trek, yet no one poses the question for these Asian characters: "What's wrong with dating within your own race? What's wrong with staying with your own kind?"

Or how about the non-white Latino/Hispanic demographic? There was nothing said about the racial background of the actor who portrayed Chakotay opposite the blond, white Jeri Ryan. Nor was their anything said about the hypothetical pairing of Chakotay and Janeway, or Chakotay and the humanoid version of the Species 8472 character portrayed by the blond, white Kate Vernon.

In Voyager, Harry Kim and Chakotay were never placed opposite women of their own racial background, or the actors placed opposite alien characters that were visibly portrayed by women of the same background. Yet, Tim Russ was.

I think the Star Wars boards are currently going through the same thing in regards to retrospective observations. Right now, it looks like we may have a black lead in John Boyega, and I'm sure there may be some romantic stuff going on between his onscreen character, Finn, and Daisy Ridley's character, Rey. And, Star Wars is not known for having many black people - or many non-whites - in its universe. (Not too mention, this is something - people questioning the lack of diversity - that had Lucas add Lando for Empire Strikes Back. Now, whether or not Lando is a positive addition is, of course, up to debate).

While I don't think discussion may harm the SW universe, since those movies are pretty popular and will get more popular come next December, it is giving a retrospect on how far the production for SW films has come.

Just so it doesn't seem like I'm totally opposing everything you're saying, on this I'm 100% in agreement with you.

Even as a kid, that Star Wars cast looked noticeably pretty generic and white. I'll say adding Lando was a good call (he came through in the end!), but that opening shot of the new trailer was a great thing for that universe far far away.

I don't mind Lando. He's a cool character.

On the other hand, in regards to another 'black' character in SW, I didn't think Mace Windu in the prequel trilogy was 'all that.' I think the fanbase pretty much hyped up the character because he was portrayed by Sam Jackson, but the character didn't really do much. (Of course, that could be blamed on Lucas and the handling of the prequels since many of the characters in that trilogy were paper-thin).

In regards to this new trilogy, I look forward to seeing what John Boyega and Lupita Nyong'o bring to their their roles. Indeed, December 2015 can't come quick enough.

 

[Makarov]

I can see where you're coming from on the makeup thing, but if you're telling me the only reason they allowed Geordi to makeout with a white woman was because he had a visor obscuring his face, that's far fetched. Think about it, you've got Spock, Data, Seven of Nine, Tuvok, these are all fan favorites that had make up on. I totally think they wouldn't have hesitated to have an out-of-makeup Dorn make out with Troi if it made sense in one of the stories.

In regards to that Tuvok episode - to anyone tuning in that isn't a trekkie, it's a white woman falling in love and being rejected by a black man. It didn't last because he's married but the fact remains they were definitely mixing it up with the actors. They are no more non-human makeup-wise than Troi.

Harry was successful with his girlfriend and was staying true to her. And what about "The Disease"? He has a white soul mate with hardly any makeup and they are still in love at the end of the episode. How about "Alter Ego" where a white woman falls for both Tuvok and Harry Kim. Making these characters aliens is just an easy way to introduce them because they're stranded in the delta quadrant.

 

[Joel_Kirk]

I can see where you're coming from on the makeup thing, but if your telling me the only reason they allowed Geordi to makeout with a white woman was because he had a visor obscuring his face, that's far fetched. Think about it, you've got Spock, Data, Seven of Nine, Tuvok, these are all fan favorites that had make up on. I totally think they wouldn't have hesitated to have an out-of-makeup Dorn make out with Troi if it made sense in one of the stories.

No, I think you're misconstruing my reply.

I already said that the reason Michael Dorn was able to make out with Marina Sirtis and Terry Farrell was very possibly because he was under heavy make-up that obscured his blackness. You take off the huge turtle head, and the rest of the make-up that makes him look like a dog, and you have a handsome guy. Hence, would TPTB have allowed him to make-out with those actresses, sans make-up, if he wasn't a Klingon character?

My gripe about Geordi is why do we have to have a black character who has some sort of handicap? If we had a varied mix of black characters, cool, but up until Sisko there was a dearth of black characters particularly in sci-fi. Many of the characters couldn't be onscreen something added to their person such as prosthetics or the like.

In regards to another part of your comment, Spock and Data and Seven of Nine are all portrayed by white performers where there were already a mixture of other visibly human characters portrayed by white performers. So, they - Spock, Data, Seven of Nine - didn't stand out as 'the white character.' Too, all these characters were looked at as sex symbols. Not so with Geordi.

And, it was already said that Geordi was pretty much a weak character after the first season. While he did have some dates - as mentioned with 'Transfigurations' - he didn't have any strong romances like O'Brien, Riker, Picard...etc. The fact that he was Chief Engineer was his only good point, IMO.

In regards to that Tuvok episode - to anyone tuning in that isn't a trekkie, it's a white woman falling in love and being rejected by a black man. It didn't last because he's married but the fact remains they were definitely mixing it up with the actors. They are no more non-human makeup-wise than Troi.

Trekkie or non-Trekkie, it wasn't much of a romance. And, it didn't really seemed liked they mixed it up. ("Private Practice" has done more in the romance and sex than Trek in that regards - that particular episode played it safe). For all we know, that same sort of thing could have happened in the 1960s. And, the only reason that they didn't kiss was because he was married, but in reality it was the network (or the writers or production overall) who didn't want to offend certain viewers.

Harry was successful with his girlfriend and was staying true to her. And what about "The Disease"? He has a white soul mate with hardly any makeup and they are still in love at the end of the episode. How about "Alter Ego" where a white woman falls for both Tuvok and Harry Kim. Making these characters aliens is just an easy way to introduce them because they're stranded in the delta quadrant.

Yes, I remember his girlfriend Libby. I also vaguely remember he was always feeling unsure about his relationship with her. And, he didn't really stay true to her - Libby - since he slept with the alien girl in 'The Disease' - another relationship where he also felt unsure of himself.

In regards to one of the episodes you mentioned, I do vaguely remember the character in 'Alter Ego,' but I don't recall the specifics of the episode or how that interest and romance panned out with the characters.

 

[Makarov]

Might have been cool if Riker had the visor instead of Geordi. I could see Frakes pulling off the look as well.

And, the only reason that they didn't kiss was because he was married, but in reality it was the network (or the writers or production overall) who didn't want to offend certain viewers.

I think they kiss briefly at one point but it's been a while since I've seen it. But as far as not kissing at the end of the episode, actually it was Tim Russ's idea himself. Check it out...

The mind meld wherein Tuvok communicates, to Noss, his unspoken feelings for her was suggested by Tuvok actor Tim Russ himself. He later remembered the thought process: "Whereas this character is not going to give her a hug and kiss, why don't we just do a mind meld here? And let's just make it silent [....] So, we decided, 'Well, let's put a mind meld here, at the very end, and then she'll be able to see what was going on, what I felt, and what I could and could not express, and why. She'd get that all in one, you know, one snap.'" http://en.memory-alpha.org/wiki/Gravity_(episode)

If it was appropriate to the character they totally would have had them make out, I don't think some network guy would step in and stop them. Similarly I don't think they would stop a non-klingon Dorn from kissing Troi if they somehow wrote that in with a temporal anomaly or something.

 

[2takesfrakes]

STAR TREK has never done relationships very well, at all, regardless if they're mixed races or not. I mean, look at poor Miles O'Brien. In the beginning Keiko was so sweet, so agreeable, always happy to be with Miles. The instant they were married, Miles pretty much got nagged at and hen-pecked every waking moment of his long-suffering existance as Husband and Father. And that was just about the only marriage we saw on TNG ...

 

[Cyke101]

STAR TREK has never done relationships very well, at all, regardless if they're mixed races or not. I mean, look at poor Miles O'Brien. In the beginning Keiko was so sweet, so agreeable, always happy to be with Miles. The instant they were married, Miles pretty much got nagged at and hen-pecked every waking moment of his long-suffering existance as Husband and Father. And that was just about the only marriage we saw on TNG ...

I kinda disagree, as it gave Miles a bit more focus to his character. But I think it's also fair to say that some of their finest work happened when they were apart as well. Still, we wouldn't have had much introduction to Keiko if it wasn't for Miles, and conversely the marriage arguably gave the audience as much insight into his personal life as any of the senior staff, which is a pretty big deal for a recurring character in those days of Trek. The only real downside for me was that Keiko should have gotten just a bit more development and a few more episodes before moving to DS9. But with that said, while his marriage to Keiko came out of left field, I thought it was a nice gesture by the writers to keep having Miles grow and grow, and then throwing in the marriage there to give him even more to do.

----
(warning: tangent brain fart)

This is also sad to say, but if TNG was made today with the exact same writing and cast, the O'Briens would be one of the few multiracial married couples on TV today where the ethnic minority's race and culture wouldn't be the butt of jokes and microaggressions (Dear Modern Family: can we go through one episode where the writing doesn't make fun of Gloria and Lily's ethnic origins?). Yes, the writers inserted Keiko's heritage here and there, but they also did it for Miles as well, and it was always done respectfully and as a way to educate, not belittle or treat as foreign/other. They're family and these differences come with the territory. And not once was it ever indicated that Miles went after Keiko because of her ethnicity but simply because he fell in love with her. One could say TNG was ahead of its time, but the cynic in me is more apt to believe that TV in several (but not all) ways has regressed when it comes to minority representation.

Still, there's a glaring lack of people of color on TV in general, so it's kind of picking up crumbs: any representation where they're treated as human rather than as object or caricature is deemed good enough, I'm afraid.

-----

Speaking of Miles, my favorite Trek of all is DS9. But now that I rewatch TNG as an adult, I start to notice the more subtle ways in which the groundwork was laid. Everyone can cite the Bajorans and Cardassians sure, but I also mean a more layered and textured writing that could juggle several topics, develop more subtext, and insert sly jokes here and there. The writing also started to get a bit more grounded as well, and personal conflicts started to emerge between the crew to drive better connections. DS9's good, but the writers definitely needed TNG to cut their teeth and experiment with, so DS9 is infinitely in TNG's debt.

 

[2takesfrakes]

Yes, it's easy for the disgruntled to point out the obvious like Picard's tendency to deliver eloquent speeches, instead of jumping up in the air and kicking his enemy as Kirk would've done. But TNG brought layer upon layer upon layer of subtlety to the show and the Miles O'Brien character did benefit from that, as well. Colm Meaney, I believe, was actually offered the part of O'Brien with the intent that he be the character sort of transferred, if you like, to DS9. I don't know that they knew what DS9 was going to be when they made that offer, but I suspect that Rick, et al, had every intention of coming out with multiple STAR TREKs from the very beginning.

 

[Cyke101]

Yes, it's easy for the disgruntled to point out the obvious like Picard's tendency to deliver eloquent speeches, instead of jumping up in the air and kicking his enemy as Kirk would've done. But TNG brought layer upon layer upon layer of subtlety to the show and the Miles O'Brien character did benefit from that, as well. Colm Meaney, I believe, was actually offered the part of O'Brien with the intent that he be the character sort of transferred, if you like, to DS9. I don't know that they knew what DS9 was going to be when they made that offer, but I suspect that Rick, et al, had every intention of coming out with multiple STAR TREKs from the very beginning.

That's cool if true, I just thought Colm Meaney was at the beginning of his career and everyone liked him so much that they kept giving him more to do (I recall a couple BTS photos where he would hang out on set in a leather jacket watching the main cast act; and these were the days when he was barely more than an extra -- as if they liked having him around just for the sake of it). Of course, that's not a mutually exclusive conclusion, either.

Regarding DS9, a lot in this board -- myself included -- like to harp on about how the writing in DS9 is just so good in the world of Trek. But in the middle of watching TNG reruns, I realize that all that good writing is an extension of mid-TNG, circa seasons 3-6.

 

[DWF]

Yes, it's easy for the disgruntled to point out the obvious like Picard's tendency to deliver eloquent speeches, instead of jumping up in the air and kicking his enemy as Kirk would've done. But TNG brought layer upon layer upon layer of subtlety to the show and the Miles O'Brien character did benefit from that, as well. Colm Meaney, I believe, was actually offered the part of O'Brien with the intent that he be the character sort of transferred, if you like, to DS9. I don't know that they knew what DS9 was going to be when they made that offer, but I suspect that Rick, et al, had every intention of coming out with multiple STAR TREKs from the very beginning.

There were no plans for a multiple Trek series from the start. According to Shatner's Star Trek Movie Memories book, it wasn't until after the failure of Star Trek V that they made plans for the ending of TNG and Berman was ordered to come up with a series to replace TNG in syndication. Said series didn't even have to be a science fiction let alone a Star Trek series.

 

[2takesfrakes]

To quote Wikipedia, which - as we all know - only posts information that is accurate & true from such reputable sources as Blu-Ray Bonus features:

"Appearing on and off in more TNG episodes, it wasn't until the fourth season episode 'Family' that Meaney's character was finally given a first name. However, Meaney came to like the arrangement of being hired on an episode-by-episode basis, and was hesitant to sign on as a regular on DS9."

And what was the Fan Reception like ... let's see what Wikipedia has to say:

"O'Brien's character is unique in the Star Trek universe. As well as being a non-commissioned officer, he is also a family man with a wife and children. He is often portrayed as being less patrician, and more pragmatic and down-to-earth than his colleagues. The producers would routinely put O'Brien under intense psychological pressure in episodes jokingly dubbed 'O'Brien must suffer'. O'Brien was regularly chosen for such storylines because it was felt people could empathise with him."

So, t'would appear that I may have misspoken, when I said that Colm Meaney was hired with the intent of being the one carried over to the next show.

 

[bbjeg]

^I'm not sure why I am unsettled by your current avatar 2takesfrakes.

 

[Kobayshi Maru]

^It was never stated that their were no gay characters and Riker did have the hots for an asexual being. That's close.

Given the coterie of bimbos he usually goes out with it's rather hard to believe that he would fall for someone so bland and subdued. It's kinda like a head cheerleader going out with a nerd, something you don't see often, or ever.

 

[JirinPanthosa]

DS9 definitely aged better than TNG. The great episodes are still great but the mediocre to okay episodes are harder to watch than the mediocre to okay episodes of DS9.

If Sisko had dated a white woman the show would have faced criticism for whitewashing black characters and been accused of tokenism. If he'd dated an alien they would have focused on the race of the actress cast. The only way to win is if he'd dated an Arabic woman or something.

 

[2takesfrakes]

^I'm not sure why I am unsettled by your current avatar 2takesfrakes.

My avatar is lifted right off the DVD cover for:
Time Travel through the Bible - narrated by Jonathan Frakes ...

http://www.nytimes.com/movies/movie...e-Part-1-The-Centuries-Before-Christ/overview

But that's not what's on my television screen - I'm watching Bad Santa! The perfect movie, really; I'm damned if I can find anything wrong with it. Too many funny moments to single out as my favourite ...