"I like the new movie better..."

[Pauln6]

This doesn't make any sense.

Beyond which it's trivia aimed at satisfying a couple of dozen people at the most. Not worthwhile.

Fair enough - so I take it you won't be contributing to this conversation any more?

Even without precise information it's still really odd that Narada turns up at Earth after Enterprise when she is travelling at far below her maximum speed.

The Enterprise does arrive after the Narada in the Sol system.

What's wierd is that they didn't have to restrict Enterprise's speed at all - they made a choice to do so in dialogue and opened up the question. This is why I think that most of the movie's flaws could be removed with tiny tweaks. Either confirm that Narada (like Khan) has suffered damage to its cloak or engines in the fight or don't make the Enterprise travel so slow.

This doesn't make any sense.

Different warp factors vary massively. Even if Enterprise arrived just after Narada, that doesn't alter the broad relative time factors (e.g one travelling at warp 4 while the other travelled at warp 4.1 etc) they would still have had to arrive at roughly the same time or we have to wonder what the Romulans were doing sitting out there (tiffin?). Also I'm not sure how Enterprise could have warped into the solar system without being noticed if Narada is already there. Ships are tough to locate in the vastness of space without access to beacon transponder codes but sensors can pick up warp distortions at close range and Narada has 24th century sensors. I'm not sure how you can 'sneak' up behind a planet at warp speed. I would have thought that a planet couldn't provide much cover until it's very close.

Sorry if I confused you but I'll try to explain my reasoning over the time factor: the writers decided that the damage to Enterprise would restrict her speed to warp 3-4 and put several lines in the movie to this effect It is not stated in the script that Narada's speed is impaired. Therefore Narada can travel faster than Enterprise and some people wonder why it was that Narada took so long to reach Earth.

Therefore, if the writers had instead put a line in the script saying that Narada had suffered damage and her speed was restricted while leaving Enterprise's engines alone (making her max speed faster at least), there would be no need to wonder how Enterprise got there first. QED. Ergo, it was the writers' decision to restrict the speed of the Enterprise that leads to the possible incongruity.

I think the problem is that the writers unnecessarily tried to keep the characters on a tight time schedule. For example, it's silly how quickly the hearing is convened after the KM test - don't these admirals have anything to do all day? It seems instananeous when realistically there would probably be a delay and an investigation into how he did it lasting a few days to a week and an opportunity for him to speak to an advsior before convening any kind of hearing. When an emergency arises on Vulcan they staff and equip several ships (from scratch) and still have time to get to Vulcan before a day is past.

Or am I getting confused? Maybe time passes after the destruction of the Klingons and the KM test - it would make far more sense? As far as I recall, Chekov reports the lightning storm, Kirk puts two and two together and grabs Uhura - I thought it is stated in this scene that the report about the Klingon ships was from the night before - is that wrong?

If we delete the line about the klingon fight taking place the day before then the time-frame of the movie makes more sense. Time can pass to allow Narada to get to Vulcan and Kirk's hearing taking place days or weeks later would be interrupted by the emergency. Either remove the line about the Enterprise speed restriction or add a line about Narada's speed restriction and (ignoring the fact that it would take days to get back to Earth at warp 4) and a fair few of the niggling problems are resolved.

 

[ST-One]

This doesn't make any sense.

Beyond which it's trivia aimed at satisfying a couple of dozen people at the most. Not worthwhile.

Fair enough - so I take it you won't be contributing to this conversation any more?

The Enterprise does arrive after the Narada in the Sol system.

What's wierd is that they didn't have to restrict Enterprise's speed at all - they made a choice to do so in dialogue and opened up the question. This is why I think that most of the movie's flaws could be removed with tiny tweaks. Either confirm that Narada (like Khan) has suffered damage to its cloak or engines in the fight or don't make the Enterprise travel so slow.

This doesn't make any sense.

Different warp factors vary massively. Even if Enterprise arrived just after Narada, that doesn't alter the broad relative time factors (e.g one travelling at warp 4 while the other travelled at warp 4.1 etc) they would still have had to arrive at roughly the same time or we have to wonder what the Romulans were doing sitting out there (tiffin?). Also I'm not sure how Enterprise could have warped into the solar system without being noticed if Narada is already there. Sensors can pick up warp distortions at close range.

Actually, the silly thing is how quickly the hearing is convened after the KM test - don't these admirals have anything to do all day? It seems instananeous when realistically there would probably be a delay and an investigation into how he did it lasting a few days to a week and an opportunity for him to speak to an advsior before convening any kind of hearing.

Or am I getting confused? Maybe time passes after the destruction of the Klingons and the KM test - it would make far more sense? As far as I recall, Chekov reports the lightning storm, Kirk puts two and two together and grabs Uhura - I thought it is stated in this scene that the report about the Klingon ships was from the night before - is that wrong?

Sorry if I confused you but I'll try to explain my reasoning over the time factor: the writers decided that the damage to Enterprise would restrict her speed to warp 3-4 and put several lines in the movie to this effect It is not stated in the script that Narada's speed is impaired. Therefore Narada can travel faster than Enterprise and some people wonder why it was that Narada took so long to reach Earth.

Therefore, if the writers had instead put a line in the script saying that Narada had suffered damage and her speed was restricted while leaving Enterprise's engines alone (making her max speed faster at least), there would be no need to wonder how Enterprise got there first. QED. Ergo, it was the writers' decision to restrict the speed of the Enterprise that leads to the possible incongruity.

Whoever said that the Narada has a higher maximum warp-speed than the undamaged Enterprise?

Oh, and the Narada still arrives in the Sol-system before the Enterprise.

 

[Pauln6]

Whoever said that the Narada has a higher maximum warp-speed than the undamaged Enterprise?

Oh, and the Narada still arrives in the Sol-system before the Enterprise.

It's true but this is why I pointed out the period of time taken to get from Klingon space to Vulcan. They must be very fast to get there in a day.

Thanks for clarifying the latter point - it has been a while since I saw the movie. Of course that doesn't alter my point much. Either the Narada has to be sitting out there for hours (or days?) doing nothing much so she can trundle in just as the Enterprise arrives or she has to be just a tiny bit faster than Enterprise to arrive not long before.

 

[F. King Daniel]

Enterprise's engines were damaged so the return trip from Vulcan to Earth would take longer, and Narada would get there first. That's all.

The only thing we know about Narada's speed is that they got from the Klingon prison planet to Vulcan in a hours - but there is exactly zero consistant data in Star Treks to prove this journey time "right" or "wrong".

"Speed of plot" is hardly a Trek-centric affliction. How many times have people in TV shows gotten across town in the space of an establishing shot, wheras other times we have lengthy chats during the car journey? Trek is no different.

 

[Admiral Buzzkill]

"Speed of plot" is hardly a Trek-centric affliction. How many times have people in TV shows gotten across town in the space of an establishing shot, wheras other times we have lengthy chats during the car journey? Trek is no different.

I used to get an enormous kick out of the total unawareness that the Canadian-centric X-Files production seemed to have regarding travel times around the Washington DC greater metropolitan area. My guess was that they had some street and regional maps, a tape measure and some kind of seat-of-the-pants formula based on taking as-the-crow-flies measurements.

My favorite was Mulder making it from Silver Springs[sic] Maryland to a military base in West Virginia in about half an hour.

And unlike Star Trek, those distances and the existing technologies are real.

 

[Pauln6]

Lol - 24 was hilarious in this regard. As the show progressed, everywhere ended up beng 15 - 20 minutes from everywhere else. Mind you, Jack being stuck in traffic wouldn't have been that exciting...

Jack Bauer - now there's a man who would have blasted Nero in a heartbeat, helpless or not.

Mind you, he'd also have tortured Uhura to find out her name...

 

[JarodRussell]

Lol - 24 was hilarious in this regard. As the show progressed, everywhere ended up beng 15 - 20 minutes from everywhere else. Mind you, Jack being stuck in traffic wouldn't have been that exciting...

Jack Bauer - now there's a man who would have blasted Nero in a heartbeat, helpless or not.

Mind you, he'd also have tortured Uhura to find out her name...

Reason why I stopped watching the show. What's the point? If you make that "He's got only 24 hours" premise, then stick to it, goddamnit. And don't make him travel impossible distances to solve the problem.

 

[Pauln6]

Lol - 24 was hilarious in this regard. As the show progressed, everywhere ended up beng 15 - 20 minutes from everywhere else. Mind you, Jack being stuck in traffic wouldn't have been that exciting...

Jack Bauer - now there's a man who would have blasted Nero in a heartbeat, helpless or not.

Mind you, he'd also have tortured Uhura to find out her name...

Reason why I stopped watching the show. What's the point? If you make that "He's got only 24 hours" premise, then stick to it, goddamnit. And don't make him travel impossible distances to solve the problem.

We kept watching so we could cheer every time Jack whipped out a knife or stripped some wires during an interrogation - even more so when the writers showed that torture always gets accurate results. Almost wet myself when he almost tortured his own girlfriend when she obviously was struggling to remember a piece of information that she didn't even know was relevant.

Oooh ooh and how in every season CTU fails to vet its own staff anywhere near competently and how those staff just step into the hall (if that) to have nefarious conversations on mobile phones - they'd do so much better if they banned personal phones within the building and used allocated work phones when staff are off site. Oooh ooh and how they have an open plan office despite having different levels of security clearance and they're always sniping at each other.

Thank God for Chloe.

 

[The Laughing Vulcan]

Watched it again last night, the first time since I saw it in the cinema. And I had exactly the same reaction.

I love the film, but I hate myself for loving it. It's Star Wars with a Star Trek coat on. It's fast paced, energetic, entertaining, funny, exciting.

It's also stupid! It takes an hour or so for the hollow feeling to sink in, but it's dumb, thin, lacks depth and intelligence, throws the science bit of science fiction out of the window, and relies utterly on plot contrivance and coincidence.

It's also another fucking villain with a superweapon movie. Except Eric Bana lacks personality to a greater degree than even that floating turd that menaced Earth in The Voyage Home. He's the first plot device in the film, the second being the Red Matter (Dear God!). I still hate what it does to the so called 'Prime Universe' I hate the brewery that passes for engineering.

But it manages to get the characters right. They aren't the same as the original series, nor are they meant to be, but for the most part they are very accessible, and likeable. The rapport that is eestablished in the film is very strong and accessible. That said, I think that Scotty is a little annoying, and Chekov is really fucking annoying. It promises to be a nice, enjoyable series of dumb, summer blockbusters.

And it still provides the most fun I've had with a Star Trek movie in close to 25 years. And I still hate myself for feeling that.

 

[Devon]

I love the film, but I hate myself for loving it. It's Star Wars with a Star Trek coat on. It's fast paced, energetic, entertaining, funny, exciting.

That's why it doesn't seem like a Star Trek film, because it's enjoyable. But that doesn't mean it's "Star Wars."

It's also stupid! It takes an hour or so for the hollow feeling to sink in, but it's dumb, thin, lacks depth and intelligence, throws the science bit of science fiction out of the window, and relies utterly on plot contrivance and coincidence.

So it actually is a Star Trek film!

I still hate what it does to the so called 'Prime Universe'

It leaves the prime universe alone.

 

[The Laughing Vulcan]

I love the film, but I hate myself for loving it. It's Star Wars with a Star Trek coat on. It's fast paced, energetic, entertaining, funny, exciting.

That's why it doesn't seem like a Star Trek film, because it's enjoyable. But that doesn't mean it's "Star Wars."

Watch the featurettes on the DVD, they wanted to make it like Star Wars. Listen to Abrams on the audio commentary. Cantina scene, Tatooine Sunset, Hoth!

It's also stupid! It takes an hour or so for the hollow feeling to sink in, but it's dumb, thin, lacks depth and intelligence, throws the science bit of science fiction out of the window, and relies utterly on plot contrivance and coincidence.

So it actually is a Star Trek film!

Again, the whole Delta Vega interlude. The dumbest piece of nonsense I have ever seen with the words Star Trek attached to it. The previous Treks may have had dumb moments, but not that bad, and at least disguised with technobabble.

I still hate what it does to the so called 'Prime Universe'

It leaves the prime universe alone.

Tell that to the Romulans.

 

[Nerdius Maximus]

This is pretty depressing. So any movie with less than top of the line special effects(which of course is EVERY MOVIE after a certain period of time has passed) is dismissed?

TWOK still holds up very well IMHO. It was made relatively on the cheap, especially compared to TMP, but handles its story and themes with intelligence.

No wonder we get pretty-looking blockbusters with mediocre story and no heart like Trek09.

I agree with this. In 20 years, people will look at stuff from now and be like, "God, how could people have ever watched this? It looks so fake!"
They'll also gripe about the pacing and lack of action. New films will all have little picture-in-picture boxes in the corners of the screen showing nonstop explosions and fighting so that audiences won't get too bored with the necessary evil of all that pesky dialogue. They'll watch something like Avatar and be like "Fuck! Why are they just standing there talking with no explosions? This is boring!"

 

[Hartzilla2007]

I still hate what it does to the so called 'Prime Universe'

It leaves the prime universe alone.

Tell that to the Romulans.

They have an EMPIRE so it's not like they went extinct.

 

[doubleohfive]

I still hate what it does to the so called 'Prime Universe'

It leaves the prime universe alone.

Tell that to the Romulans.

I will. Wait a minute. Oh yeah, THEY'RE A FICTIONAL RACE OF PEOPLE WHO AREN'T REAL.

 

[PorthosShadow]

While I love the movie it does worry me that we as an audience may never get to see The Prime Universe again. I really want to see what the fall out is after The Romulan Empire is gone. I want to see some continuation of all the characters we have come to know.

 

[Pauln6]

I agree that the characters are the best thing about the movie and the Delta Vega contrivance was the worst. Having watched 7/10 of the Trek movies over a weekend last week, most of the contrivances, while noticeable in those movies, don't seem to grate quite so much on your consciousness.

 

[Admiral Buzzkill]

It's also stupid! It takes an hour or so for the hollow feeling to sink in, but it's dumb, thin, lacks depth and intelligence, throws the science bit of science fiction out of the window, and relies utterly on plot contrivance and coincidence.

So it actually is a Star Trek film!

Yep. I've seen all of these things - this one is no less intelligent than any of the oldTrek movies, and it's a good deal more energetic and entertaining than most of them.

Twenty years from now it will no doubt seem dated - just as TMP and TWOK and TVH are clearly dated to anyone who doesn't look at them through the lens of fannish devotion.

 

[Dukhat]

...and the Delta Vega contrivance was the worst.

Could you explain exactly what you mean by that? Are you referring to the fact that they named the planet after another planet in TOS that was a different planet? So, if instead of naming the planet Delta Vega, if they named it Rigel XLVIII, that would have been better?

Oh, wait a minute, there are shitloads of planets in TOS named Rigel, aren't there?

Really, if that's the worst thing you found about the film, I think that's just dandy.

 

[The Laughing Vulcan]

...and the Delta Vega contrivance was the worst.

Could you explain exactly what you mean by that? Are you referring to the fact that they named the planet after another planet in TOS that was a different planet? So, if instead of naming the planet Delta Vega, if they named it Rigel XLVIII, that would have been better?

Oh, wait a minute, there are shitloads of planets in TOS named Rigel, aren't there?

Really, if that's the worst thing you found about the film, I think that's just dandy.

No, it's that nu-Spock has a fit of pique, and dumps nu-Kirk onto random Hoth, where after an "Always a bigger Fish" moment with the Wampa Ice Lobster, nu-Kirk finds out that his escape pod has randomly wound up near a cave where old-Spock is hanging out, again not too far from where nu-Scott is slobbing out.

That contrivance...

 

[Dukhat]

...and the Delta Vega contrivance was the worst.

Could you explain exactly what you mean by that? Are you referring to the fact that they named the planet after another planet in TOS that was a different planet? So, if instead of naming the planet Delta Vega, if they named it Rigel XLVIII, that would have been better?

Oh, wait a minute, there are shitloads of planets in TOS named Rigel, aren't there?

Really, if that's the worst thing you found about the film, I think that's just dandy.

No, it's that nu-Spock has a fit of pique, and dumps nu-Kirk onto random Hoth, where after an "Always a bigger Fish" moment with the Wampa Ice Lobster, nu-Kirk finds out that his escape pod has randomly wound up near a cave where old-Spock is hanging out, again not too far from where nu-Scott is slobbing out.

That contrivance...

Ah, OK, I get it now. But of course, you realize that without this "contrivance" we'd have no movie, or at least no movie that would fit into the timespan allowed?